Get The L Out.

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  • Get The L Out.
  • Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    What if they did still have male sex characteristics? Would you accept you were a bigot if you refused to have sex with them on that basis?

    Then I presume you wouldn’t fancy them and the whole discussion is moot.

    ninfan
    Member

    Would it be ok to have sex with someone after giving them the impression that you were a fellow protester, when in fact you were an undercover policeman?

    rene59
    Member

    No one is forcing anyone to have sex with anyone.

    No? What is guilt tripping, bullying or social conditioning them into it then?

    Then I presume you wouldn’t fancy them and the whole discussion is moot.

    You might want to take a look at the issue raised in the OP again then.

    5plusn8
    Member

    I wouldn’t worry, straight women stopped fancying me a long time ago too.

    I was being facile, its not prejudice, it’s personal,preference.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Never asked but I would expect a trans person to tell me they were trans just like if someone knew they had hiv they should tell you

    You do realise that you can’t catch “trans,” right?  I mean, you’re seriously not that dim?

    I am not gay so have no interest in being physical with another person of the same sex.

    And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you.  They’re a woman, it’s not just a bloke in a frock.

    That.

    Is.

    The.

    Point.

    For fox’ sake.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    I was being facile, its not prejudice, it’s personal,preference.

    It becomes prejudice when you change your opinion based not on the characteristics of a person, but because of their chromosomes.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Also, point of order, with my <mod> hat on just for a moment and not directed at anyone in particular,

    There are trans people who are members of this forum here.  Please bear this in mind and try and show some basic human empathy in your posts.

    Thank you.

    </mod>

    emsz
    Member

    Saw them at Pride, All a bit weird really, but I guess everyone needs a hobby. They were made to march on front of the parade like naughty school kids.

    But…there’s plenty of people who think the whole “community LBGT thing” is bogus anyway.

    This is from a reddit sub, and it pretty much sums up ALOT of views on it.

    rather than campaigning to get the T out of LGBT, the L should leave and create their own women-only movement. I don’t see the logic of women aligning themselves with a bunch of dude-bros which comprise all of the G, the majority of the B, and don’t even get me started on the T. It simply makes no practical sense.

    Personally I’m all mleh about it. Oh and if you’re lucky enough that someone want to bang* you, you’re really going to start asking them if they used to be something else👍good luck with that

    * yeah, bang.. It’s my new favourite word for it..

    You are born with what you have and that’s that, unfortunately for some. If you need surgery to make you look like what you feel it can hardly be classed as natural. If women, lesbian or not don’t want to share facilities or have a relationship with a bloke who doesn’t want to be a bloke that should be fine.

    I support anyone living however they want to but if you decide to live a certain way don’t be surprised if not everyone else is quite as understanding. It doesn’t make you or them wrong.

    rene59
    Member

    And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you.

    Yes they really are.

    Oh, and the more letters that are added to lgbt-etc it stands to reason that it will become less representative of the group. Why should a gay man or woman relate to a transgender person? Smacks of lumping them all in together. They might do but they have just as much right not to.

    ninfan
    Member

    <span style=”font-size: 0.8rem;”>And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you.  They’re a woman, it’s not just a bloke in a frock.</span>

    That.

    Is.

    The.

    Point.

    For fox’ sake.

    However, isn’t one of the key arguments being made by sectors of the Trans community at the moment in favour of allowing people to self define their legal gender – in which case there is nothing that would require them to be anything more than, as you put it, ‘a bloke in a frock’

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Why should a gay man or woman relate to a transgender person?

    Oh I don’t know. What experiences could they possibly have in common, in this open, unprejudiced and welcoming world?

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    Or some say say male and female are biological terms.

    Yes but as mentioned they are not the only biological terms.  There are lots of other ways to be intersex to varying degrees – both naturally and via medical technology.

    There’s really not much point in coming up with hypothetical scenarios and defining your behaviour according to them.  Because guess what – we’re all individuals.  Why can’t you just take life as it comes?  The woman of your dreams might be trans.  Who knows, if I weren’t married the person of my dreams might turn out to be a man.  Or maybe there are many people of my dreams and maybe I don’t want to have sex with all of them.

    In short, stop being an arse and just roll with it.

    Premier Icon molgrips
    Subscriber

    PS I wish I could wear a skirt in this weather.  I wish you could get skirts for men that didn’t make you look like a wannabe Scot.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    Smacks of lumping them all in together. They might do but they have just as much right not to.

    Again; I don’t think anyone is proposing to round up the LGBTs and make them live together in one happy community. It’s entirely voluntary to participate in LGBT events.

    Oh I don’t know. What experiences could they possibly have in common, in this open, unprejudiced and welcoming world?

    That’s absolutely not the point. Why should a gay man or women or a straight trans person automatically be defined as the other? They may want to be but by surely they have the right to differentiate themselves? The simpleton answer is to class anyone not ‘normal’ as a group of ‘others’.

    5plusn8
    Member

    And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you.  They’re a woman, it’s not just a bloke in a frock.

    Isn’t this an important philosophical point, that is probably only really answerable by personal preference. Many people, me included, do not agree with you that M>F trans, for example, are women. The real problem comes when there is personal interaction.

    Firstly it really is none of my business what or how other people behave or define themselves. I support everyones right to identify however they like. But surely that right applies to me, I don’t want to have sex with someone who was a man, because in my eyes they are still a man. Are you seriously saying I don’t have a right to that opinion? The only person that effects is me. End of story. Anything else is basically thought policing.

    atlaz
    Member

    It seems to me that people want to have sex with who they want to have sex with. Sexuality is, as they say, a spectrum so it may be that one day, someone who “self identifies” as straight meets someone of the same sex and decides “I fancy a bit of that”. There’s a real interest in putting labels on people, trying to ensure that we know what they are and what WE are but ultimately few people are probably at the binary end of the spectrum where they are 100%. I know several people who have had a shock that what they considered to be their sexuality was more nuanced and complex than they realised.

    Now, I’m sure that trans people dating heterosexual people is a minefield for them so why make it harder for them by inventing problems that like as not, rarely if ever exist. They identify as a gender different to that of their birth but at what time do they tell the person you’re attracted to what is under the clothing or what gender was assigned to them at birth? Likewise, if you ignore physical cues that may be there, is there a huge difference, conversationally, between women who were born men and those born female? Is there such a thing as a stereotypical woman? I would assume that trans people are in no rush to have the no doubt horrific experience of being rejected (potentially violently) by someone they want to either have a relationship with or just have sex with so the majority probably have some learned way to broach the subject before things reach that point.

    In my opinion, the people who are most scared of what they may “accidentally” do with someone in bed are those who need to have a long look at themselves and contemplate whether or not they are as secure in their knowledge of who they are as they think.

    TBH, people being bigoted is pretty normal. Find any group and you’ll find people in it who have problems with other people, even those you think they’d find common cause with. Being empathic costs us nothing so, maybe, we should practice it a bit more.

    atlaz
    Member

     I don’t want to have sex with someone who was a man, because in my eyes they are still a man. Are you seriously saying I don’t have a right to that opinion? The only person that effects is me. End of story. Anything else is basically thought policing.

    But if there are no indications that person was anything other than a woman, what is the difference for you? I can understand you may not want to plan a future founded on dishonesty if you both aren’t honest with each other but if it was just a night and you’re happy the person in front of you is a woman and the bits you want to play with are compatible with what you like, where’s the harm or difference?

    5plusn8
    Member

    1) I’m not scared of an accidental shag with a man or someone who was a man, its just something I don’t want. As I said before this is academic anyway.

    2) @atlaz I can’t say its harm particularly, its just something I don’t want to do, if it was revealed later I would feel tricked. I am sure thats the limit of it. However I would feel bad for the person who tricked me too.

    Remember this? All very strange, the behavior by both of them and the resulting imprisonment. Seems similar to what we are discussing here, the “victim” thought she was male, and “could not tell” , only feeling upset when she discovered the truth.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/gayle-newland-found-guilty-at-retrial-of-tricking-female-friend-into-sex

    outofbreath
    Member

    If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?

    You can argue the victim here is homophobic, but since the law backed her up then I think it must matter beyond homophobia:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/15/woman-convicted-of-impersonating-man-to-dupe-friend-into-having-sex

    Moreover, if a 14yo boy identified as an adult woman and you had sex with her and you couldn’t tell, and then you found out you’d be cool with that?

    What about the other way round, if you have sex with a 25yo woman who identifies as a 14yo boy, have you done something legally or morally wrong?

    Not sure any of this has a simple answer.

    I don’t see the logic of women aligning themselves with a bunch of dude-bros which comprise all of the G, the majority of the B, and don’t even get me started on the T. It simply makes no practical sense.

    From my googling the other night that does seem to be where the Get the L out group is coming from, and some of the comment on here backs that up – men telling Lesbian women who they should fancy, and shouting “homophobia”/”hate” if women don’t fancy the people some men think lesbian women ought to fancy. (I’m not saying I think they’re right, just that I can now see their point.)

    poah
    Member

    And someone who is M>F trans is not the same sex as you

    Yes they really are. Sex is determined by your chromosomes (not including the very rare mutations or chromosomal aberrations) XX is female while XY is male.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    some of the comment on here backs that up – men telling Lesbian women who they should fancy, and shouting “homophobia”/”hate” if women don’t fancy the people

    I don’t see that happening anywhere on here.

    5plusn8
    Member

    I do. You and others are saying that if heteronormatives do not fancy having sex with people who used to be the same gender as them then they are homophobic.

    outofbreath
    Member

    I don’t see that happening anywhere on here.

    “If someone has reassigned to a point where you have sex with them and couldn’t tell, why would it matter beyond latent homophobia?”

    To which my response was:

    You can argue the victim here is homophobic, but since the law backed her up then I think it must matter beyond homophobia:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/sep/15/woman-convicted-of-impersonating-man-to-dupe-friend-into-having-sex

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    You and others are saying that if heteronormatives do not fancy having sex with people who used to be the same gender as them then they are homophobic.

    No. In fact nearly the opposite. You should use whether you fancy someone as the reason whether you want to have sex with them or not. If you don’t fancy someone, that’s fine. But if you fancy someone, then find out they have the wrong chromosomes, and then don’t fancy that person, AND THATS THE ONLY REASON, it’s my opinion that you are a victim of your prejudices, and err, what was that phrase that was used earlier?

    Edit; found it; social conditioning.

    Second edit; And to clarify; if the ablove is the case, I am unequivocally NOT going to advocate that you are ‘forced’ to have sex with a transgender person. That is the absolute opposite of what should happen and seems to have come from someone else’s fevered imagination. I’m just going to be a little sad for you, hope that one day you grow a little as an empathic human being, and hope that you manage to stay away from people that your opinions are offensive to, for their sakes.

    atlaz
    Member

    What v8ninety said.. I’ve never had that clash of conditioning vs. heart and I’d imagine it’s a bit of a mind **** but likewise, surely denying what you truly like or desire must mess with your head massively.

    AdamW
    Member

    @poah

    not exactly true but it appears to be a common mistake to make.

    http://www.who.int/genomics/gender/en/index1.html

    I read about the crazies at the march.  Looks a lot like the knee-jerk rubbish coming out of North Carolina with pearl clutching and “will someone think of the children!” malarkey about something that doesn’t happen (“men in dresses using loos where ‘women’ could be present).  I don’t know of a single trans person who thought “Aha!  I’ll take hormones, change my body shape, wear different  clothing and even get my bits and bobs rearranged and *then* I’ll be able to force myself on people, muhahahahahaha!”.

    If you don’t want to have sex with someone then don’t.  If that person forces you then it’s called ‘rape’ and is very wrong.  Trans people are not men in drag/women in suits, they’re people like you and me trying to get along in the world as best they can.

    Premier Icon lunge
    Subscriber

    For those debating things, a simple question – “How do you define “female”” (or male for that matter). Until you’ve done that you can’t really take discussion any further,

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

     I don’t know of a single trans person who thought “Aha!  I’ll take hormones, change my body shape, wear different  clothing and even get my bits and bobs rearranged and *then* I’ll be able to force myself on people, muhahahahahaha!”.

    when the dear old man of the US republicans were kicking off on that it was found that more Republican straight men had sexually assaulted people in bathrooms than any trans person.

    Premier Icon andybrad
    Subscriber

    Interesting thread.

    Ill hold my hand up and say im a bit backwards at this sort of thing. Not because I don’t care but because its not something ive had to deal with a lot and subsequently am unsure how to approach it.

    The LGBT thing. I can understand why its there, to unite against oppression which is good. Im not entirely sure how the trans thing fits in as I see it as being different to peoples sexual preference (which I see the LGB thing as) I see the trans thing as someone who wants to identify as something they were different to what they were born into. Again if that’s your thing then that’s cool but apart from the whole unite against hate thing im not sure how it then effects your sexual preference and indeed if it should?

    I think the worry for blokes is the whole toilet scenario. Im not sure what this is but I guess its either that you fear getting bummed to death by a 7ft bloke in a frock while at the urinals or if some bloke in a frock lets themselves into the ladies to look at young girls. Or something along those lines. It’s a fear thing due to not fitting in with the norm. People are always scared of something different.

    Either way. I respect what people want to do with their lives but I think that even in the LGBT community you have people saying what you cant or should be doing if you identify as a particular “thing” then that’s not good. But it does go to show that people can be dicks in all areas of the community whether you’ve got one or not.

    With regards to my approach to it all. I get told off for not being pro this or that but I don’t feel the need to as tbh its none of my business…..

    poah
    Member

    not exactly true but it appears to be a common mistake to make.

    What I said was true if you re-read what I wrote. I know about the odd xsome abnormality abd those that have mutations which stop the Y causing the male bits to be made instead.

    5plusn8
    Member

    For those debating things, a simple question – “How do you define “female”” (or male for that matter). Until you’ve done that you can’t really take discussion any further,

    Exactly.

    V8ninety, you should be cautious in your campaign, I think the problem is you will never educate anyone to your woke position if you keep chucking the barbs in. I am trying to be honest and open and happy to face anything, you seem to give the impression that anyone who hasn’t achieved your nirvana deserves contempt, to which most peoples reaction is just to tell you to **** off.
    I am happy to take it, but it makes the whole thing much harder. And to be honest is the whole problem with much of these rights movements.
    Get of your high horse and make your points clearly and fairly.

    Either way. I respect what people want to do with their lives but I think that even in the LGBT community you have people saying what you cant or should be doing if you identify as a particular “thing” then that’s not good. But it does go to show that people can be dicks in all areas of the community whether you’ve got one or not.

    With regards to my approach to it all. I get told off for not being pro this or that but I don’t feel the need to as tbh its none of my business…..

    Also this exactly my position ^ . Thats why I am onyl concerned with my relationships. I am not interested in sex with men, or ex men, it only affects me. I will fight for the right for other people to have sex with whichever consenting adults they want, for ever. Isn’t that good enough?

    poah
    Member

    I’m just going to be a little sad for you, hope that one day you grow a little as an empathic human being, and hope that you manage to stay away from people that your opinions are offensive to, for their sakes.

    If someone is offended because I don’t want to have sex with a trans person then they have the problem not me.

    AdamW
    Member

    @poah – not as rare as you would think, if you read the article.

    Premier Icon v8ninety
    Subscriber

    V8ninety, you should be cautious in your campaign, I think the problem is you will never educate anyone to your woke position if you keep chucking the barbs in. I am trying to be honest and open and happy to face anything, you seem to give the impression that anyone who hasn’t achieved your nirvana deserves contempt, to which most peoples reaction is just to tell you to **** off.

    Happy to take that criticism and learn from it, thanks. Reading my posts back I can see that they may come across as a bit high horsey. Sorry.

    TBH, it’s not my battle, and certainly not a campaign. I’m a heteronormative white male, who has just been lucky enough to spend a lot of time with all sorts of different humans beings. I just see behaviours and attitudes towards fellow human beings that saddens me, and react. Also, I see what appears to be deliberate misinterpretation and conflation of facts in order to find something to be outraged about (ZOMG! No one is going to force ME to have sex with a bloke!) and I try* to bring a bit of objectivity back into the conversation. Sorry if I’ve offended. I shall try to stick more closely to Wheaton’s law in future! 👍🏼😎 all the best.

    Premier Icon allthegear
    Subscriber

    I’m not going to pretend some things in this thread haven’t upset me – they have. To be honest, I’ve been avoiding STW for the last day or so hoping this would just go away but that doesn’t seem to be happening. So, I’m just going to have to put a few things straight:

    1: Not a single trans person on the planet cares whether you personally want to have sex with them, believe me. You can’t even wash your legs properly…

    2: The case of Gayle Newland is not relevant as she wasn’t (and said to the court she wasn’t) trans. She was intentionally duping someone into sex.

    3: Trans people find themselves at risk of violence from sexual partners more than any other subgroup. They are not the purportators, they’re the victims – so much so that black, trans women in the USA have a life expectancy of 29 years. Thank about that for a minute…

    4: Recent studies show that >40% of trans people have seriously considered suicide. I have a number of friends who have attempted to take their lives because of the stupid comments they hear over and over again. One of them is currently recovering from her latest overdose attempt.

    5: Much of the LGBT movement and Pride marches came about from the Stonewall Riots, which were largely driven by trans women. It would be <i>bizarre</i> if T was not part of LGBT

    6: Trans people make up around 1% of the UK population. Ginger people make up just shy of 2%. Basically, for every two ginger people you see, you also see a trans person. There are more around than you think…

    Serously people, grow up. Nobody wants to bang you, least of all me.

    Rachel

    5plusn8
    Member

    Not a single trans person on the planet cares whether you personally want to have sex with them, believe me.

    As I said many times, its academic in my case..
    But it seems that somebody cares, v8ninety and atlas feel that anyone not wanting to bang a trans person is a homophobe, if a trans person doesn’t want to bang me I am not offended, and I don’t feel I or anyone has the right to be offended.  (EG look at incels. uggghhh blaming everyone else because you cannot find a partner).

    I have always been a vociferous supporter of the freedom to be whatever you are or want to be. It is not mine or anyones business to question what people do between consenting adults, nor how they dress behave etc.  But what I do is up to me right?

    bigyinn
    Member

    Nobody wants to bang you, least of all me.

    *cries* but we’ve never met, how can you be so sure?

    (if my comment is in bad taste please ask a MOD to remove it)

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