Gaza

The two authors of the report though are, like the two main antagonists in this forum thread, well known one sided activists outside their day job.

I guess you also have similar disdain for the reporting from unicef, oxfam, save the children and if that’s not enough to shift your opinion then perhaps spend 30mins on Twitter, TikTok and see what you come up with.

Here’s another one sided activist/consultant plastic surgeon talking of her time in Gaza and the difficulties in being “allowed” into the country by COGAT (Israeli military  of defence)

Wikipedia- COGAT

My mum was across at Wigtown book festival last weekend (only 30mins away) for a talk by Lindsey Hilsum and to get her book signed, Lindsey was wearing a keffiyeh and talked of reports from those she knows and trusts in Gaza – she was utterly scathing of what’s happening to the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank , then again perhaps she is also a well known one sided activist outside her normal job reporting from war zones.

https://x.com/lindseyhilsum/status/1842987211312202039?s=61&t=27Xz8oI3pGlaNEQvowJBcg

Oh look!, another one sided activist outside his normal day job

I could carry on if you like?

1,700 vs 42,000.

Something definitely is one-sided.

And (as on a previous page) if both those estimates were 30% out in opposite directions, the one-sidedness is still there.

Last Sunday :

IDF chief says Hamas is ‘defeated’ as Israel turns focus to Hezbollah after year of war in Gaza

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-chief-says-hamas-is-defeated-as-israel-turns-focus-to-hezbollah-after-year-o/

Yesterday :

‘Catastrophic situation’ at children’s hospital as Israel renews Gaza attacks

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/oct/10/catastrophic-situation-childrens-hospital-israel-renews-gaza-attacks

Dr Husam Abu Safiyeh, the director of Kamal Adwan hospital in Beit Lahiya, said it had not been possible to comply with an Israeli army order to evacuate all patients within 24 hours.

The Israeli military said the latest raid was intended to stop Hamas fighters staging further attacks from Jabaliya and to prevent them from regrouping.

Sounds like the US is giving Israel a telling off for once in the UN.

I bet Netanyahu is quaking in his boots.

What are they going to escalate to next? Stronger words? Cessation of chocolate imports?

What are they going to escalate to next? Stronger words? Cessation of chocolate imports?

Well, as you no doubt guessed, they are going to do nothing at all. Meanwhile…

A US-made munition was used in a strike on central Beirut that killed 22 people and wounded 117, according to an analysis of shrapnel found by the Guardian at the scene of the attack.

The strike on Thursday night hit an apartment complex in the densely populated neighbourhood of Basta, levelling the apartment building and destroying cars and the interiors of nearby residences.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/oct/11/middle-east-crisis-live-eu-israel-iran-lebanon-blog-news-updates-hezbollah-hamas-unifil

15.40 EDT

Biden ‘absolutely’ asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers

Joe Biden said he is asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers in Lebanon, after two incidents in which Blue Helmets were wounded by Israeli forces.

Asked by a reporter at the White House if he was asking Israel to stop, the US president replied on Friday:

Absolutely, positively

“Joe Biden said he is asking Israel to stop firing at UN peacekeepers in Lebanon, after two incidents in which Blue Helmets were wounded by Israeli forces.”

I wonder if Biden has considered the option of telling the Israelis to stop shooting at UN peacekeepers rather than just asking them to stop?

After all shooting at UN peacekeepers is a violation of international humanitarian law, so maybe a stronger stance might be appropriate?

I wonder if Biden has considered the option of telling the Israelis to stop shooting at UN peacekeepers rather than just asking them to stop?

Well, steady on. First he needs to ask the Israelis if they pretty please might possibly consider undertaking an investigation into whether the Israelis might have inadvertently fired at UNIFIL, and then wait until they provide a thorough and impartial report saying that they definitely had nothing to do with it.

Oh no, Israel admitted straight away that they were responsible. The excuse they give is basically the same one as they give when they hit hospitals, UN shelters, schools, etc,…… terrorists were in the location and these terrorists were deliberately using the hospital, schools, and in this case a UN peacekeeping compound, as shields.

You think I’m kidding don’t you?

https://www.timesofisrael.com/idf-says-two-un-peacekeepers-hurt-when-soldiers-fired-at-immediate-threat-to-troops/

“The Israeli military expressed “deep concern” and said two peacekeepers had been injured by Israeli fire as it was engaging Hezbollah. It said they had been warned hours earlier to take shelter.”

I am sure they are really really sorry. Just like they are really really sorry when they strike a hospital or an UN school and kill dozens of children.

UN don’t appear to have backed up the IDF’s claims that Hezbollah fighters were 50 metres away from UN peacekeepers and that they had opened fire, but then according to Netanyahu and his far-right government the UN is anti-semitic so presumably that is the reason why.

This podcast is a good listen, Ezra Klein Wikipedia link here interviews Ta-Nehisi Coates Wikipedia link here

In his new book of essays, “The Message,” Ta-Nehisi Coates writes about a trip he took to Israel and the West Bank in May 2023. “I felt lied to,” he told me. “I felt lied to by my craft. I felt lied to by major media organizations.”

Coates’s essay is a searing portrait of Palestinian life under Israeli rule. It has also been criticized for leaving much out: Hamas is never mentioned. Nor is Oct. 7. Nor are any of the peace processes. So I asked him on the show to discuss what he saw when he was there and what he chose to leave outside the frame.

Dr Victoria Rose is a Consultant Plastic Surgeon from King’s College Hospital who has worked for Medical Aid for Palestine in Gaza during the latest Israeli onslaught. She will be one of the main speakers tomorrow evening at 6pm at a vigil for Gaza outside Crystal Palace Park opposite the Westow House Pub.

Dr Victoria Rose is a Consultant Plastic Surgeon from King’s College Hospital who has worked for Medical Aid for Palestine in Gaza during the latest Israeli onslaught

Yes yes yes. But does she condemn Hamas?

This podcast is a good listen, Ezra Klein Wikipedia link here interviews Ta-Nehisi Coates Wikipedia link here

Thanks for the link. Interesting interview and the “bibliography” has some informative articles

But does she condemn Hamas?

Well I have just heard her speak and no she did not condemn Hamas, nor did she condemn the IDF/Israel. She spoke of her experiences as a doctor in Gaza and the desperate humanitarian/medical situation there.

She said that what touched her most was the dedication of Palestinian medical staff who had leave their families behind to deal with the appalling medical crisis. She said that every single medical staff she met had lost loved ones themselves…… partner, child, parent, or sibling.

She did end by condemning the British government for not speaking out against the horrors being committed in Gaza.

Horrific scenes (apparently) of patients in Al Aqsa hospital alive in beds, unable to move, as everything around them is engulfed in flames, after an IDF attack last night.

With the Russian invasion of Ukraine I can understand (in a simple layman’s war anyway) what’s happening from a military action point of view. But all through the last year I’ve struggled with the IDFs actions in Gaza. They release statements saying Hamas in location X have been defeated, and then they drop bombs in the same area. Or there’s a map showing that the IDF are basically everywhere in Gaza, and then there’s an attack, and then they spend 2 weeks clearing through a hospital, then attack it again later on.  Or they post videos of themselves rigging a university building or a residential block of flats with demolition charges and then blow it up, why?! If you can safely move around to prep it for demolition then you don’t really need to demolish it, surely?  I know it’s not a war of open territory in the same way as Ukraine but I just can’t get my head around it.  And if Hamas still has “command centres” in Gaza after all this then the IDF approach clearly isn’t working, but they’re just going to carry on dropping bombs on refugees in tents and destroying hospitals?

Why? Ethnic cleansing aka ‘mowing the lawn’ whilst the world looks on and they are actively supported by the USA, UK and Germany.

I nearly put “working” in quote marks because it’s not working militarily, but it is in terms of punishing the entire population whole also shifting the window of what’s allowed as “defensive” action.

I saw someone else making the point that stuff like this is how you end up with extremists, because every mainstream politician is saying that this is all good actually, and so you feel like there’s no legitimate power you can speak to to try to stop any of it.  The most you’ll get is “Biden pulled a frowny face while signing the order to deliver more 2000lbs bombs”.  And when people feel like they’re witnessing a great injustice that they have no legitimate war of stopping then they’re more likely to turn to illegitimate means instead.

With the Russian invasion of Ukraine I can understand (in a simple layman’s war anyway) what’s happening from a military action point of view. But all through the last year I’ve struggled with the IDFs actions in Gaza. They release statements saying Hamas in location X have been defeated, and then they drop bombs in the same area. Or there’s a map showing that the IDF are basically everywhere in Gaza, and then there’s an attack, and then they spend 2 weeks clearing through a hospital, then attack it again later on.  Or they post videos of themselves rigging a university building or a residential block of flats with demolition charges and then blow it up, why?! If you can safely move around to prep it for demolition then you don’t really need to demolish it, surely?  I know it’s not a war of open territory in the same way as Ukraine but I just can’t get my head around it.  And if Hamas still has “command centres” in Gaza after all this then the IDF approach clearly isn’t working, but they’re just going to carry on dropping bombs on refugees in tents and destroying hospitals?

Two main reasons IMO:

Partly (mostly?) what BillMC said, because they aren’t just fighting Hamas….

Also I think because they aren’t actually doing as well against Hamas as they’d like to, which is why they say “Hamas is defeated in area X!” and then a Hamas guy pops up there so Israel throw another airstrike at the area… and repeat.

I often find myself thinking “WTF are they doing” where there seems to be no strategic gain at all, for example strikes on UNIFIL, I mean why? I find it hard to believe that it’s always as simple as “Israel don’t care and they’re just killing everyone in sight” and think that it must be often either a mistake (but no one believes them) or that there is some reason (but no one believes them. Or knows the real reason). It’s almost certainly a complicated situation and a mix of all the above.

Re. UNIFIL though, seeing as there is so much Hezbollah activity in the area it does somewhat beg the question of what exactly UNIFIL’s been doing or what the point of them is.

In other news, I find myself waiting for the shoe to drop with Iran… what’s going on there?

It’s been nearly two weeks and Israel’s threatened response is nowhere to be seen. Did they really have no sort of prepared plan already in place for something like this? Is it international pressure trying to get them to lower the response? Politics or military causing the delay? Are they (please) going to give up on the idea and find some other way of saving face?

It’s making me tense waiting for the big explosion.

The US have moved a THAAD battery (and the soldiers to man it) to Israel. They only have 7 or 8 in total so are they expecting something and are getting in place to intercept it?

The UN informs Israel that a school will be used for administration of the polio vaccine today, Israel bombs the school saying it was used as a Hamas centre

Perfectly normal behaviour for the genocidal overlords

The UN informs Israel that a school will be used for administration of the polio vaccine today, Israel bombs the school saying it was used as a Hamas centre

That’s horrible. Do you have a link? Can’t find any info about this.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/israel-lebanon-iran-gaza-attack-10-14-24-intl-hnk#cm28u53ar000c3b6mk5uk556r

And can’t embed links on twitter but it’s reported on UN site

https://news.un.org/en/story/2024/10/1155671

Re. UNIFIL though, seeing as there is so much Hezbollah activity in the area it does somewhat beg the question of what exactly UNIFIL’s been doing or what the point of them is.

None of which, of course, justifies Israel shooting at them.

Israel complaining that others are not abiding by UN resolutions is a walking talking definition of “chutzpah”

“Targeting Hamas” is the new “He fell down the stairs, guv” or “Shot whilst trying to escape”.

But, I’m sure it’ll all stop soon. Someone has said they’re really quite cross about Israel targeting UN peacekeepers. That’s bound to make Netanyahu think twice in future.

What I can’t understand is why Iran doesn’t come under more international condemnation for its Hezbolah/Hamas war with Israel. First Gaza and now Lebanon, both destroyed because of the hatred of Israel by Iran’s religious leaders.

Certainly Israel needs to be condemned for its actions. Nothing can excuse the slaughter of innocents, however until Iran stops funding their proxy armies. Israel will continue this decades long war.

Iran is the problem, and perhaps the Israelis should do something about it. I’m not convinced the rest of the Arab world would be too upset if they did.

Iran is the problem, and perhaps the Israelis should do something about it. I’m not convinced the rest of the Arab world would be too upset if they did.

Iran isn’t an Arab nation and secondly it is much more powerful militarily than most people probably realise.

This website ranks Iran as the 14th most powerful nation on earth (out of 145) and Israel the 17th most powerful.

The only significant advantage Israel has over Iran is in airpower, in most other aspects Iran has a significant advantage over Israel.

https://www.globalfirepower.com/countries-comparison-detail.php?country1=iran&country2=israel

The big disadvantage that Israel has is that it is geared to fight quick short wars, in contrast Iran can sustain a long protracted war.

It would be madness for Israel to launch a full-scale war against Iran. And Iran certainly has no interest in engaging Israel directly, it doesn’t need to.

Internationally, progress was being made with Iran. Trump wrecked that progress. He also encouraged illegal settler expansion, and put fresh barriers in the way of a two state solution (by his statements and actions as regards Jerusalem).

Iran isn’t an Arab nation

Exactly! even more reason why the arab states would see the upside of Iran getting into bother

and secondly it is much more powerful militarily than most people probably realise.

This website ranks Iran as the 14th most powerful nation on earth (out of 145) and Israel the 17th most powerful.

not sure how much this really counts in reality, we’ve seen what happened to the ‘second best army in the world’

The only significant advantage Israel has over Iran is in airpower, in most other aspects Iran has a significant advantage over Israel.

Given where Israel and Iran are on the map (~1000km apart!), airpower is the only thing that counts.  The only thing these two can do is lob missiles at each other, and Israel is way ahead both in terms of defense and strike capability.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘full scale war’ but there won’t be any tanks rolling anywhere.

Israel is committing acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, not Iran. Israel is trying to drag Iran into their war on Palestinians in a calculated act to garner more support from the US, UK and Germany. No body is forcing these actions onto Israel they are doing these gross crimes against humanity because that is what their regime want to do, not “because Iran”.

It appears that Iran is being very patient, despite provocation and don’t seem to want full on hostilities to break out, probably due to the death toll that will involve.

we’ve seen what happened to the ‘second best army in the world’

What are we seeing ? A protracted conflict, a war of attrition, with Ukraine appearing to be running short of personnel, to the point they’re employing ‘press gangs’ and rounding up anyone and everyone eligible to join the military.

ahahah Ernies link is laughable, just comparing numbers of ‘things’ so that a F35 counts same as a soviet Mig29. Safe to discard it entirely.

Justin Bronk at RUSI doesnt seem to think that Israel has much in terms of SEAD/DEAD so even Israel won’t be able to conduct air operations at scale over Iran. It’ll mostly be long range stuff from them too. I just don’t see how this war could expand to much more than we’ve seen this year.

The only significant advantage Israel has over Iran is in airpower, in most other aspects Iran has a significant advantage over Israel.

This ignores 2 major points, firstly the technological advantage Israel’s military has and secondly they can also count on support from the US (not troops on the ground but AWACS, air-to-air refueling, intelligence and advanced weapon systems). That said I don’t think Israel wants a protracted war with Iran, they certainly don’t want a land war (which would be night on impossible without the US getting directly involved, which they won’t). But Israeli can do a lot of damage to Iran’s military and economy, it’s much more difficult for Iran to do the same to Israel.

I expect Israel’s imminent retaliatory strike on Iran will focus on military and maybe political targets so that they can say they showed restraint, if Iran strikes back then the gloves will come off and Israel will hit oil processing and other economic targets and possibly even nuclear refinery/generation targets (though they might save that for any future escalation).

First Gaza and now Lebanon, both destroyed because of the hatred of Israel by Iran’s religious leaders.

Gaza and Lebanon are being destroyed by the ones dropping the bombs. To claim otherwise is counter-factual victim blaming.And to deny Israeli agency, to claim they are helpless pawns in an Iranian plot, seems a bit … antisemitic.

ahahah Ernies link is laughable,

Because it doesn’t fit into the preferred narrative that Iran is a weak third world country? There is a reason why the United States and its allies have never attacked Iran, that link helps to explain it.

The neo-con Project for the New American Century during the George W Bush administration era had a clear goal for “full spectrum” global dominance. It started small by attacking and invading Afghanistan, one of the poorest and weakest country in the world. It then moved on to Iraq, a country weakened and on its knees after years of crippling sanctions.

Next on the list was Syria but by then Iraq had gone tits up so rather than Western boots on the ground civil war was fermented leading to a stalemate. Then eventually Afghanistan was lost and by then Project for the New American Century with its goal of full spectrum global dominance had also collapsed. But the ultimate prize was also going to have been Iran.

What the US and other Western countries actually did was to make Iran even more influential in the Middle East than it had previously been – the direct result of the Western strategy of ‘kill first, think later’. All the most advanced technology in the world (which helps Israel win short wars) cannot win a war against insurgency. A lesson which the West learnt in Afghanistan and Iraq, and Israel is learning today in Gaza. Trying to ignore that fact and going for bigger stakes, such as taking on a huge and powerful country like Iran, smacks of the desperation of a gambler who has lost everything and doesn’t know when to give up.

An interesting article by Israel’s former military ombudsman, a man who probably understands Israel’s military capability more than most people

https://archive.li/2024.10.08-002959/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2024-10-08/ty-article-opinion/.premium/why-israel-cannot-hit-irans-nuclear-sites-without-sparking-all-out-war-in-the-middle-east/00000192-685f-da14-a1be-fb7f16020000

They never think for a moment about the day after. They are disconnected from reality and exercise no judgment. And they are propelled by a tailwind from many people who don’t understand the situation evolving around them.

Because it doesn’t fit into the preferred narrative that Iran is a weak third world country?

No, because it’s methodology is risible. By it’s reckoning an airforce of 100 Sopwith Camels would be the same strength as one with 100 F22’s. Just embarassing really