Gaza

And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?

Well they believed that all Iran’s missiles had been shot down. Now it turns out that 30 hit a well-defended airbase. What happens when they aim at a city?

And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?

That’s the thing about propaganda, it often IS true, just twisted.

Have they degraded Hezbollah’s capabilities? Of course. To any meaningful degree? That’s the question…

Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports (ie, propaganda…). Does anyone believe casualty reports coming out of Ukraine, from either side? It’s slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies

It’s slightly disingenuous to point to all this sort of thing and go on about how Israel always lies

Even giving Israel leeway we all have to admit they do lie, quite a fair bit ,

Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers and play up their achievements etc in their reports

What is definitely not normal is for one side to blatantly contradict itself. You would think that with decades of hasbara behind them that Israeli propaganda would make certain that everyone was singing from the same hymn sheet, would you not?

The Israeli prime minister stands before the United Nations declaring that the genocide in Gaza will continue until either Hamas is defeated or it surrenders.

A week later the IDF declares Hamas “defeated”.

Either the IDF are publicly exposing Netanyahu as a liar or he is exposing them as liars. So why is the once slick zionist propaganda machine screwing up?

Because they frankly have no idea wtf they are doing. There is no plan. They are making it up as they go along, from day to day.

Expanding the war despite not having defeated Hamas is an act of desperation. Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved. The reality is that their options are very limited, “peace” isn’t one of them because zionists have always chosen war before peace.

And now that the zionists project is unraveling their solution is what it has always been – war.

Presumably they are hoping that things might possibly pan out in their favour, maybe the United States will get involved.

It is Not “maybe”, they are already involved.  They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.

United State, UK and some of the EU states will definitely get More involved in the coming years.  This war will not end soon, at least not for another 100 years, and they can consider themselves lucky if this war can end in 200 years (assuming 3 generations).

As far as using WMD, the Israel and their alliance will be the first ones to use it the moment they sense defeat (escalation dominance)

Oppressors can never win in the long run no matter how much they try, unless they annihilate the population like what they did to the people of First Nation.  The First Nation could not fight back as they were isolated.  The Middle East, on the other hand, is an entire different story, and they will show the oppressors the boundary and that will be the boundary of the world in future.

The world is changing, war is coming and there will be hard time ahead (3 generations from now will feel it directly and hard).

Want to stop the war fast?  Learn the South African way. Give the place back to the rightful people.

They are the ones that created the state of Israel and will forever support them, because their political apex is controlled by the strong Israel lobbyists.

That simply isn’t true, the United States did not ‘create’ Israel. Nor was the US even close to Israel until after the Six Day War, in fact the US was highly critical of Israel (and Britain and France) over the 1956 Suez Crisis.

Until the Six Day War France was Israel’s closest ally and main arms supplier, France helped Israel establish Israel’s nuclear industry. Both France and Israel shared a common goal – the colonial subjugation of Arab peoples.

That changed in the early 1960s when the French colonialists were finally expelled from North Africa. France then embarked on a mission of establishing new friendly ties with its former Arab colonies, and the following the Six Day War placed an arms embargo on Israel.

This had a severe effect on the IDF and the United States stepped in as a provider of arms for Israel. The relationship grew as Israel became an important player in protecting “vital US interests”. But for the first 20 years of Israel’s existence it did not have a close relationship with the United States, in fact it was sometimes fraught.

Contrary to the anti-semitic myth that the Jewish/zionist lobby controls US policy towards Israel, and the US government does their bidding, it is the other way round – Israel is the United State’s useful underling.

I do not have the slightest doubt that the United States will drop support for Israel the moment it feels that the costs of doing so exceeds the benefits they get in return. Despite all the shite sprouted by American politicians US capitalism has no emotional ties with Israel.

And worryingly for Israel US dependency on Middle East oil has dropped very dramatically in recent years,. although that is obviously not the only calculation in the geopolitical conundrums of that region.

Anyone watch Newsnight tonight?, a very vocal apologist attempting to hit all her briefing points but was well countered by the other 3 guests and Victoria Derbyshire, her utter disdain was evident in the smirks and body language

I thought it was pretty poor all round until the very end when all of them appeared to back a two state solution with admittedly varying degrees of enthusiasm. Victoria Derbyshire could not get two of the participants to shut up so much of the time was wasted as they talked over one another

France’s current position was made clear by Barnier yesterday claiming “legitimate self defence” for Israel. Madame told the radio what she thought of that. If someone gives you a slap ripping both their arms off and blinding them is not legitimate defence, especially if you’ve been squatting their garden for decades.

A week later the IDF declares Hamas “defeated”.

ISW assessment of the current capability of Hamas broadly agrees that it is no longer able to effectively mount operations in Khan Younis and Rafah.

Anyway, it’s perfectly normal at times like this for all sides to fiddle numbers

Even if there was a +/- 30% error on 1,700 Israeli dead vs 42,000 Palestinian dead those figures still paint the same picture.

“Israel has likely defeated Hamas in Khan Younis and is in the process of doing so in Rafah”

Doesn’t sound like “mission accomplished” to me. But if the IDF chief is indeed telling the truth, and a year on Hamas really has been defeated, then the Israeli government has ran out of excuses for slaughtering men, women, and children, in Gaza, and they need to get out.

Plus of course it means that Benjamin Netanyahu was lying to the world less than 2 weeks ago when at the UN he declared that the killing wouldn’t stop until Hamas was defeated.

The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.

Been pondering this. The problem for me is that it ignores motive, as though 7th October was a bolt from a blue sky.

Despite Israel’s protestations the United Nations considered Gaza to be under illegal Israeli occupation prior to October 7 2023,.

Violent resistance to illegal foreign occupation is perfectly legitimate and lawful under international law.

Obviously war crimes by any side is not.

That’s a really interesting report, @nickc

The reality is noting is going to change for another month. The problem is that the Jewish vote is quite influential in a number of swing states that could determine the outcome of the US presidential election. As a result no politician is going to do anything that may encourage voters to move away from them. It’s simply not going to happen as the priority is to win the election. Israel knows this and is using this time to do as it wants knowing the USA is impotent until the polls close and the result known.

In another swing state Michigan, the Arab vote is crucial.

Sky news report on the slaughter of Hind Rajab and the members of her family, along with the killing of the emergency workers sent to rescue her.

https://news.sky.com/story/im-so-scared-please-come-heartbreaking-final-moments-of-girl-5-killed-in-gaza-13229813

According to an Israeli MP from the “liberal” centrist party Yesh Atid that, quote, “the children of Gaza have brought this upon themselves.”

When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, “human animals”, and countless Israeli politicians publicly claim that there are no ‘innocents’ in Gaza, then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.

https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-01-11/wipe-gaza-off-the-face-of-the-earth-the-statements-made-by-israeli-politicians-on-which-south-africa-supports-its-genocide-case.html

^^^

The use of this particular Playbook by Israel is disgusting and ironic in equal measure.

This is short clip is several months old but it is really worth watching imo as Rachel Shabi, an Israeli born Jewish reporter, is so passionate in the face of absurd zionist claims.

I think due to the horrific atrocities carried out by israel, they are now probably the most hated country on Earth.

1000 cases of war crimes backed up by evidence so far with many more to be presented, good.

The facts behind Gordon Brown’s article in yesterday’s Guardian are utterly heartbreaking:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/oct/08/hearts-breaking-children-gaza-tomorrow-peace

Eighty-five percent of parents report that their children have gone at least one whole day without food, and now 346,000 children under five need supplementary food and nutrients, with at least 50,000 suffering from acute malnutrition.

More than 40% of families in Gaza have been caring for children who are not their own. In all, 20,000 children have been orphaned, are unaccompanied or are separated from their families. Six out of 10 children in some camps have developed stammering and other communication-related issues. 

Satellite images captured by the Global Education Cluster in July revealed that 93% of schools have sustained some level of damage, and 85% will need to be reconstructed.

In some ways the children killed by the IDF are the lucky ones.

When you add to that the fact the Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has refers to Palestinians as, quote, “human animals”

He’s a repulsive man but he didn’t say that, as the article you link to makes clear. If you’re going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.

If you’re going to link to something off-site instead of making a reasoned argument, at least read it first.

And if you are going to correct me and point out that it wasn’t actually Benjamin Netanyahu who made the “human animals” comment how about making it clear who did say it?

It is not as if the comment wasn’t made by an Israeli political and that it doesn’t feed into the narrative that dehumanises Palestinians and considers them less than human. Or did you want to pretend that the comment was never made?

Yes it was his Defence Minister and fellow Likud party member Yoav Gallant who made the “human animals” quote. Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.

then the dehumanisation of Palestinians is complete and killing a five year old little girl is seen as justifiable.

I would imagine that referring to Jews as sons and uncles of monkeys and pigs, and the [Arabic] rhyme “Palestine is our land and Jews are our dogs” is what enabled some of them to justify the 7th Oct attack. There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.

Netanyahu himself appears in South Africa’s lawsuit for mentioning, in more than one speech, Amalek, the enemy nation of the Israelites in the Bible and which God asked King Saul to exterminate.

…But of course the connection between Palestinians and Amalek is nothing at all, apart from being convenient for (the non-religious) Netanyahu to play the religious aspect.

If anything, biblically speaking the Palestinians would have descended from Ishmael (Abraham’s son, generally viewed as the father of the Arab people) and not Amalek. There is no religious commandment of any sort re. Ishmael, and anyway the commandment to (physically) wipe out Amalek does not apply nowadays.

(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)

There is equally disgusting racist and dehumanising discourse from all.

Whatabout not having a competition to find the most disgusting racist comment and focusing on what the Israeli prime minister and his cabinet ministers have actually said?

Or are we saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties?

No I didn’t think so.

(A little further reading for anyone interested here or here)

I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.

You have to assume that South African’s lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.

Because all the community leaders engaged in this conflict have used the language of hate to make it easier for all their supporters to dehumanise and ‘other’ each other, until they’ve reached this maximalist position.

Or are we saying

Is this you putting word into people’s mouth again? I though you ignored posts you don’t agree with, it’s what you tell everyone else to do after all.

Is this you putting word into people’s mouth again?

I asked the question and then answered it myself…..”No I didn’t think so”.

We are not saying that the dehumanising racist language of the far-right Israeli government is okay because they too have been the target of racism from unknown parties, so why even mention it ?

Where are the words you feel are being but into your mouth?

The senseless slaughter of Palestinian children is disgusting – read Gordon Brown’s article in yesterday’s Guardian, so is the vile language of far-right Israeli politicians.

But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs

I am sure that the International Court of Justice will read all the available information on the comments made by Benjamin Netanyahu before passing judgement.

You have to assume that South African’s lawyers are confident that Netanyahu has a case to answer with regards to the language that he has used, hence their direct reference to it.

I don’t quite understand what you mean to say by this, have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?

All I was saying was that from the Jewish point of view, Amalek has nothing to do with this. Netanyahu is for sure making genocidal comments, but if he’s saying there’s some sort of religious motivation to wipe out Palestinians, there isn’t. He’s either clueless or making it up for his own ends.

The links were purely provided in case someone was interested (in the commandment of destroying Amalek and why it doesn’t apply in our times) and were not directly related to anything in Gaza.

have you misunderstood me as defending Netanyahu?

No, not at all, there is no one on stw who is prepared to defend Netanyahu – that has been obvious for quite a while. Which is hardly surprising when you consider what is happening in Gaza under his premiership.

He is however surprisingly popular in Israel:

Netanyahu is once again the most popular politician in Israel

https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-08-26/netanyahu-is-once-again-the-most-popular-politician-in-israel.html

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But some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead. ffs

It’s not your thread to dictate who says what about anything. It’s not distracting or derailing the thread from the universal condemnation of Netanyahu’s disgusting actions to speak or discuss more widely about the fact that language over the years from both communities leaderships have undoubtedly contributed to the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.

Miller the weasel getting called out

edit…..hang on….need to open up on another device to post links

the situation that everyone in the region finds themselves in now.

The situation in which 50,000 Palestinians find themselves dead, and 50,000 Israelis don’t, you mean ?

It’s not your thread to dictate who says what about anything.

What the **** are you on about? I am expressing an opinion – deal with it.

Tens of thousands of children have been slaughtered, countless more have had life-changing injuries and have become orphans, and instead of focusing on the horrors of that, and the fact that it is still going on, some people want to engage in whataboutry and petty point scoring.

You can say whatever you damn well like, but reading Gordon Brown’s article about the tragic plight of Palestinian children, at the hands of a far-right racist government led by a brutal psychopath, without the “yeah, but what about blah blah blah” is also an option.

I highlighted the choice made : some people would apparently rather detract from that and discuss semantics instead.

An interesting comment here by an Israeli historian whose family were deeply affected by the alleged actions of Mossad.

Avi Shlaim says he has ‘proof of Zionist involvement’ in 1950s attack on Iraqi Jews

https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/avi-shlaim-proof-israel-zionist-involvement-iraq-jews-attacks

Shlaim unveils in his book “undeniable proof of Zionist involvement in the terrorist attacks” which prompted a mass exodus of Jews from Iraq between 1950 and 1951.

Shocking but perhaps it shouldn’t come as a great suprise from a project which brought us the “Hannibal Directive”.