Gaza

Quite a brutal expose of the media bias regarding reporting on the war

I’m unsure if this has been previously mentioned on this thread but it’s a harrowing and damming read throughout, the Gaza Health Care letters to the U.S, Canadian and UK leadership from the collective doctors, surgeons and health care providers who have worked in Gaza,

https://www.gazahealthcareletters.org/

I know it’s not the excuse that makes everything all right.

And i know it’s a choice that has been crowbarred into an already tight space.

But…

The Jews are there now. From a European/World guilt angle it’s difficult to deny their right to at least a space for self-determination.

For the people of the Arabian Peninsula it has obviously been difficult to be forced to accommodate it. So difficult that they have not.

Hitler, in an earlier pre-Final Solution phase had considered making Madagascar the new ‘Homeland’ for them – is it too late to reconsider?

If only there was a way of prosecuting countries which violate international humanitarian law.

And those who arm them.

‘Many of the strikes on Lebanon have violated international humanitarian law’, says UNHCR

https://www.channel4.com/news/many-of-the-strikes-on-lebanon-have-violated-international-humanitarian-law-says-unhcr

If by ‘a space for self-determination’ you mean a highly militarised, ethno-nationalist, apartheid state, driven by an ugly supremacism that aggressively craves lebensraum and cannot make peace with its neighbours, then no. I don’t think the Madagascans would like that at all.

Well, here we are a year later with no end to the fighting in sight.

All the Jewish schools in Manchester have a police presence lurking near the entrances this morning.

Sad times we live in.

I struggle to see how western governments failing to stop the horrific reaction by the Israeli government to the Oct 7th attacks serves any wider strategy or benefits our nations.

Just an awful downward spiral into god knows where.

Some would argue that the USA wants Iran tested and kept in check in the region to benefit the USA, and that current horrors could help with that. I can’t see that anything going on in the region right now benefits people in the USA at all myself, but some will see it that way… possibly including some people in a position to influence USA policy. But, in the main, either the October the 7th attacks not happening, or the government and army of Israel responding in a far more limited way, would have been better for all “western governments” and their people… but that’s all secondary to the horror and fear being endured by those closer to or directly in the path of all this.

no end to the fighting in sight.

I’m not sure I’d characterise jet planes bombing schools and hospitals as “fighting”, but no, no end in sight.

Iran also recently elected a “moderate” president, there was an opportunity to perhaps use a bit more carrot and less stick to bring Iran in line, I think that would also have not been good for the current Israeli governments objectives, so probably also figured into their thinking in expanding the conflict.

I’m not sure I’d characterise jet planes bombing schools and hospitals as “fighting”, but no, no end in sight.

What a tiresome and predictable response. Everything’s so black and white, isn’t it.

From hearing some people here bang on you’d think that it’s really simple: Evil Israel is killing civilians because they want to wipe out all Arabs and steal their land – and that’s all there is to it.

Let me ask a couple of questions:

Why are Israel using extremely expensive precision weapons to target specific buildings, even rooms within buildings, rather than eg cheap carpet bombing?

Why are there so many videos of secondary explosions after these strikes on civilian buildings?

Please note my intention in asking this is mainly for the points of “it’s not so simple” and “yes they (H&H) do hide weapons, commanders etc amongst civilians and it’s naïve to think they don’t deliberately do this”. I am well aware that Israel are far from clean and the fact that they have little regard for civilians (to say the least) is meaningless (in this context only, of course). This post is not intended as a blanket defence of Israel or to play down the deaths of anyone.

What a tiresome and predictable response. Everything’s so black and white, isn’t it.

I’d hoped not wilfully putting civilians at risk from the mortal danger of high explosives would be a pretty black and white issue. Am I wrong?

I’d hoped not wilfully putting civilians at risk from the mortal danger of high explosives would be a pretty black and white issue. Am I wrong?

Not at all. Pretty stupid to store it in their basement.

Sigh. Yes, don’t worry, and stupid to shoot at it.

What a tiresome and predictable response. Everything’s so black and white, isn’t it.

50,000 and counting killed. A million suffering from hunger and disease. I’m struggling to see the “white” bit.

After a year of this I am dismayed to say that each day I wake up to find the whole situation in Gaza more shit, more desperate than I ever beleived it could be 48 hours beforehand.

50,000 and counting killed. A million suffering from hunger and disease. I’m struggling to see the “white” bit.

Struggling to see the white, compared to that? Fair enough.

Struggling to see any white at all? No.

Struggling to see the white compared to that, and therefore making yourself blind to the possibility of there being any white? No.

Just because the black may be more than the white does not mean you need to focus exclusively on that.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor”  – Desmond Tutu

There is only one oppressor currently in Gaza killing thousands of men, women, and children, it’s that black and white.

Not at all. Pretty stupid to store it in their basement.

From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening.

There are no excuses for what the Israeli government is doing in Gaza. There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.

There is no need to paint Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis or the Iranian regime as whiter than white to make that point though… the lies aren’t needed. The horrific attacks all these groups carry out shouldn’t be whitewashed.

I don’t see anyone doing that, but to suggest that their attacks are remotely comparable to what the Israelis are doing is next-level whataboutery. The casualty figures speak for themselves – there’s really nothing else needs saying.

there’s really nothing else needs saying

When it comes to peace in the region, then everyone actively involved in conflict, bombing and hostage taking are part of the problem, and can’t be ignored when hoping for resolutions.

Did anyone read the “long” essay by Naomi Klein in the guardian at the weekend?, it’s an involved read (30 mins) but worth setting time to see it to the end, she’s received quite a vitriolic response for the essay and her reading of the situation in Israel

How Israel has made trauma a weapon of war

From someone whose stated intention is not to play down deaths, that response is saddening

Fair enough that was perhaps overly flippant, I apologise. It was an annoyed response to a post completely ignoring my message and reinforcing that some people refuse point blank to see two sides.

Look, I am not neutral here and nor am I comparing deaths on either side. Anyway, in what world is “neutral” defined as “able to see that perhaps the oppressed is not 100% perfect and the oppressor is not 100% evil”?

Say it’s 99% if you like. It’s still not black and white.

Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we’ve established that profound truth, then what ?

Iran also recently elected a “moderate” president, there was an opportunity to perhaps use a bit more carrot and less stick to bring Iran in line, I think that would also have not been good for the current Israeli governments objectives, so probably also figured into their thinking in expanding the conflict.

Iran is a theocracy and Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei outranks the president. He has a 25+ year track record of preventing more moderate presidents from carrying through changes to international detente, the national economy and civil rights. Iran is 153rd/167 in the The Democracy Index https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29115464

Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who also appoints the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps, has previously called Israel a “cancerous tumour” that “will undoubtedly be uprooted and destroyed” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68811276

His appearance leading Friday prayer is significant; he hasn’t done that since 2020 and is facing both Israel and domestic discontent, e.g. suppression of womens’ rights and the 2022 death of Mahsa (Jina) Amini in the custody of Iran’s morality police https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/06/26/unveiling-resistance-struggle-womens-rights-iran

We’ll never know if you’re right, but it’s never as simple as “if only” 🙂

Nobody is 100% evil, or 100% good. Now we’ve established that profound truth, then what ?

1) Accept that it’s possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.

2) Accept that neither side always tells the truth, or always lies.

3) Accept that both sides sometimes tell the truth and it’s worth listening to.

4) Accept that it’s possible to somewhat support and condemn both sides without being either neutral or solely “with” one side.

I daresay there’s plenty more.

All of the above can be both reversed and looked at in varying degrees. For example: everyone’s very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking. Maybe they’re usually right? That’s not the point. (It’s probably a mix anyway, from both)

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor” – Desmond Tutu

I’m not sure anyone is even trying to be neutral. Everyone is saying all sides must stop, unless someone can show me a quote to prove me wrong.

My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn’t make me “neutral”, which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?

1) Accept that it’s possible to talk about the good or positive points of Israel, or the negative points of Hamas/Hezbollah/whoever.

So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.

For example: everyone’s very quick to instantly dismiss anything Israel says as lies, and instantly believe anything any Hamas run organisation says, without any sort of verification or checking

That’s clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”, with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.

My condemnation of the suffering and crimes inflicted by both sides doesn’t make me “neutral”, which seems to be the inference some posters are taking from such comments?

Ah, but if you condemn both sides you are equating the deaths on both sides, see.

So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ? Absurd.

No, but if someone says “Hitler was a pretty good painter” the response should not be “ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects”.

That’s clearly not the case. The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”, with the implication that their statistics are in doubt, despite a track record of providing accurate statistics. On the other hand Israeli claims of beheaded babies and whatnot are quoted as gospel.

I was referring to this thread. Media bias is another subject altogether!

No, but if someone says “Hitler was a pretty good painter” the response should not be “ignore that, he killed millions therefore I refuse to look at his good aspects”.

Of course. Context is everything. If there’s a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler’s painting talent I suspect you’d be criticised.

The BBC always refer to the Gaza Health Ministry as “Hamas-run”

I believe (could be wrong?) that the Hamas political wing as well as the Hezbollah political wing were reclassified in UK law to deem them as “terrorist” 4 odd years ago so any mention of them in reporting has to state this.

Tutu said apartheid in Israel was worse than in SA. Netanyahu told Max Hastings 25yrs ago his ultimate aim was to clear out Gaza and the West Bank. This didn’t start on 7th Oct but in 1948.

Of course. Context is everything. If there’s a thread about Auschwitz and you pop up with a comment saying we must bear in mind Hitler’s painting talent I suspect you’d be criticised.

Oh come on. That’s not remotely the same thing as what’s happening here. If I was saying you must see Israel’s good points in this conflict because they grow pretty flowers, then it might be comparable and you’d be correct.

I do not want this to start getting (more?) personal either or for it to turn into point scoring between us so I’m going to stop here for now, I think I got my point across well enough for those who are not determined to ignore it. I also need to do some work today 😉

“But we know too well that our freedom is incomplete without the freedom of the Palestinians” – Nelson Mandela

Note : Nelson Mandela was classed as a terrorist by the United States until 2008, 14 years after he became President of South Africa.

Benjamin Netanyahu has never been classed as a terrorist by the United States.

So we should caveat any discussion of Nazism by noting that Hitler was a pretty good painter ?

No, but there is plenty to be critical of the actions of the Red Army during the same period… millions of innocents caught up in the horror other people’s plans.

Absurd.

Quite.

But the point is that you can be critical of the horrors the IDF are inflicting without being non-critical of the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthis and the Iranian missile attacks.

Some reflection, today, about what happened a year ago, is normal and human. It doesn’t make the response of the Israeli government to those events right or just. That’s not “whataboutism”, it’s looking at the full horrible picture.

This didn’t start on 7th Oct but in 1948.

The modern day violence between the two communities arguably began with the Hebron massacre in 1929. It was a full-blown civil war by 1947, and in 1948 it became a regional war when a coalition of five Arab armies invaded with the aim of destroying the newly-formed state of Israel. They failed to do so and were defeated (the original meaning of the term “Nakba”).

And of course Jordan could’ve kept the West Bank when they captured it in 1949, or better yet created a Palestinian state 75 years ago. Instead they annexed it for themselves, then used that very useful high ground to shell Israel in 1967.

The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present. Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.

So anyway, it wasn’t just 1,200 Israelis who died on Oct 7 2023, it was also the West’s moral authority. The legacy of the West’s hypocrisy and double standards will linger in the region and throughout the Global South for generations to come.

Arming a psychopath with the most advanced weaponry in world does not come without a price.

1,700 Israeli dead.

42,000 Palestinian dead.

The figures speak for themselves. Proportional it isn’t.

Netanyahu 10 days ago at the United Nations  :

“If Hamas stays in power, it will regroup … and attack Israel again and again and again … So Hamas has got to go,” 

“This war can come to an end now. All that has to happen is for Hamas to surrender, lay down its arms and release all the hostages”

Nine days later:

IDF chief says Hamas is ‘defeated’ 

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/idf-chief-says-hamas-is-defeated-as-israel-turns-focus-to-hezbollah-after-year-o/

That seems quite a leap…. from Netanyahu saying that Hamas cannot remain in power and must surrender to a few days later his IDF chief publicly announcing that Hamas has been defeated. Either Netanyahu or the IDF are not being honest with the Israeli people.

For once I think it might Netanyahu who might be closer to the truth :

Hamas fires barrage of rockets at Tel Aviv on October 7 anniversary

https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/10/7/video-hamas-fires-barrage-of-rockets-at-tel-aviv-on-october-7-anniversary

So after a year of pounding Gaza and making big rubble into smaller rubble Hamas still has the capacity to fire rockets at Tel Aviv.

And people believe Israeli propaganda that they have “degraded” Hezbollah’s capabilities with its enormous arsenal of thousands of missiles hidden deep in the mountains of Lebanon?

The point is you can always go back further, or point to this or that, but what matters is the choices made in the present.

I sort of agree with that actually, but this:

Hamas chose violence a year ago today (as did Hezbollah a year ago tomorrow), and Israel then also chose violence.

is dishonest. Calling two things by the same name (“violence”) suggests they are somehow comparable, but in this case they are quantitatively and qualitatively entirely different. To return to your first point – the choice being made every day by the Israelis is to kill more innocent people, to starve more innocent people, to degrade the environment to a point where habitation is impossible. Every day Israelis get out of bed and go and kill some more people. There isn’t a level of sophistry that excuses that.