Gaza

geez.  backs out of thread….

Would you feel better if they were also living and dying in bombed out buildings Ernie? What level of suffering is required for you to acknowledge someones pain?

Well obviously I wouldn’t, but that isn’t happening is it? And there is little chance that it will happen. So why even mention this straw man?

Yes I would be absolutely appalled if 17,000 Israeli children had died and many more left maimed in the last 12 months due to a senseless slaughter, of course I would. And if it happens I will say so without hesitation.

I start off from a position of complete neutrality, I am neither a Palestinian nor a Zionist. And from that starting position I have come to the conclusion that the Palestinians are the victims and the Zionists are the aggressors.

I am not alone in that conclusion and despite the attitude of some on this thread it is a conclusion which more and more people throughout the world are rapidly coming to.

Well it’s only the fault of those who are backing this senseless slaughter which in so far has cost the lives of 47,000 Palestinians in the last 12 months, 70% of them women and children.

Including Iran and its allies?

Seems that the people butchered on Oct 7th don’t count neither does the celebration of their deaths.

I’ll leave you to it.

How is that the fault of the ordinary people hiding in shelters who didn’t ask for this war?

You vote for warmongers, you get wars.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue

Of course it is. When the Gaza Health Ministry reclassified deaths to list separately those victims who were identified it was trumpeted as being proof that the death figures had been inflated.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue.

They’re probably thinking ‘false flag’.

Including Iran and its allies?

You do realise that there has been a turkey shoot going on in Gaza for the last 12 months don’t you? Yes it’s fine to condemn Hezbollah for lobbing missiles over the boarder but why aren’t Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?

Why aren’t Western governments forcing the Israeli government to comply with UN Resolutions? Or at least the big three, countries such as Ireland and Spain undoubtedly would if they could. Unfortunately United States hegemony calls the shots, and instead they are supplying Israel with the tools to do the killing.

I find the recent changing attitude by some on this thread interesting. For long periods highlighting the horrors being committed by the IDF to the Palestinians went unchallenged, or rarely challenged.

Now suddenly this thread takes a distinctively more pro-Israeli less pro-Palestinian position. The reason? Well I think it is obvious, because Iran has lobbed a couple of hundred missiles at Israel. That clearly was the catalyst.

Netanyahu might be a psychopath but he is a clever psychopath with fantastic survival instincts. He knows that by widening the conflict, especially drawing in Iran which he has been provoking for months to attack Israel, is likely to rally Western support behind Israel at a time when the situation looks desperate and there is little chance of defeating Hamas.

It seems to have worked a treat. The zionist supporters who for a long period remained silent and I guess embarrassed by the barbarity of the IDF have suddenly become animated and vocal because Israel is facing a hostile attack. All of a sudden it’s “won’t anyone think of the poor Israelis sitting in their shelters?”

But of course all Netanyahu is guaranteeing is that Israel will never have peace and security. He can’t defeat Hamas nor maintain an unsustainable war. Expanding it might bring temporary support from the United States but long-term it will bring more enemies and more global insolation. Although I don’t know how much that bothers him.

Even if Netanyahu kills every Hamas and Hezbollah militant, fighter, supporter… whatever. He’ll just make twice the number of enemies amongst their orphans, their families, their friends, even just their religion.

I’m not sure, logically, there is a feasible end result that delivers even medium-term security to Israel. So what’s the aim? Kill all Muslims?

Quite frankly, I think I’d prefer a quick death from my own side than being taken hostage by

…some on this thread

Now suddenly this thread takes a distinctively more pro-Israeli less pro-Palestinian position

I genuinely think you are misreading what people are posting. No one is posting support for the horrors Israel has inflicted. We are simply pointing out that innocents on both sides have suffered, albeit in vastly different numbers, as they do in all wars.

If you cannot see the difference, then you maybe need to take a break from barking at the wind. I admire your support for the Palestinian cause, but you are really not getting the nuance of the posts on here the last couple of days. Nuance isn’t easy to get on forum posts,  but you are doing yourself, the forum and especially the mods no favours with your approach at the moment.

I genuinely think you are being deliberately misleading about what people are posting.

There have been enough pages of this thread to see the pattern now.

There have been enough pages of this thread to see the pattern now.

To be fair he is passionate about this issue, maybe a little too passionate in terms of internet forum discussions.

On the World at One on R4 there was a Israeli commander who mentioned of an IDF soldier killed in Lebanon in the previous 24hrs, no mention of the 110 killed in Gaza or the 19 members killed of the same family in the previous 24hrs, And then he had the cheek to mention that the Mossad headquarters that were targeted are situated in a heavily built up area of Tel Aviv therefore the bombing/targeting of such an area is utterly indiscriminate and putting the safety of innocent Israeli civilians at risk.

It’s racism pure and simple, Palestinian lives do not count

I genuinely think you are misreading what people are posting. No one is posting support for the horrors Israel has inflicted

You are doing the very thing which you are accusing me of. Nowhere have I said people “support the horrors Israel has inflicted”. In fact I suggested the complete opposite :

For long periods highlighting the horrors being committed by the IDF to the Palestinians went unchallenged, or rarely challenged.

No one has tried to defend the slaughter of Palestinians on this thread, unsurprisingly. No one has dared to even attempt to justify 47,000 dead Palestinians, and countless more maimed.

The claim I am making is that this thread has suddenly taken a more pro-Israeli stance since yesterday, with less talk about Palestinians and more talk about poor Israelis sitting in their shelters, and a lot of emphasis on how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are.

What do you think happened yesterday to cause this change of attitude? You don’t need to be Sherlock Holmes to figure it out. Netanyahu’s strategy is working – Israel’s supporters after a long time being on the back foot suddenly feel energised. Now it’s all about Israel’s right to defend itself.

Genocide is not self-defence.

a lot of emphasis on how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are

They’re all angels, and are in no way responsible for the violence in the region… it’s all about Israel, and once it is destroyed peace will reign.

[ obviously I don’t believe any of that… reducing the problems of the region to “one side is bad” and choosing not to see that others are also complicit in the never ending attacks, death and fear isn’t helpful at all… and neither is labelling anyone who doesn’t want Israel destroyed through force as a “supporter of Israel” ]

They’re all angels, and are in no way responsible for the violence in the region… it’s all about Israel, and once it is destroyed peace will reign.

I think you might be deliberately ignoring the point l am making. Since yesterday the “emphasis” has been how evil Hamas/Hezbollah/Iran are, much more than previously.

Netanyahu’s plan is working. Well at least with a few punters on stw – they can refocus the attention away from what the IDF is doing in Gaza and the West Bank

Why aren’t Western governments forcing the Israeli government to comply with UN Resolutions? Or at least the big three, countries such as Ireland and Spain undoubtedly would if they could. Unfortunately United States hegemony calls the shots, and instead they are supplying Israel with the tools to do the killing.

And currently their eyes are on Iran, Americas #favorite enemy(In the middle east).

Some early talk on Iran’s nuclear capabilities.

Netanyahu’s plan is working

Since Iran’s latest missile strikes, it is being talked about more (and covered more in the media) for sure. It does drag other countries into the situation, and Netanyahu is probably happy with that… if that’s what you mean by “plan working”. But just as Netanyahu could (and should) have responded in a different way to the Hama’s attacks (rather than giving them the escalation they probably wanted)… Ayatollah Ali Khamenei could have chosen not to bomb Israel after the attacks on Hezbollah (and not given Netanyahu the escalation he seems to want). Iran is not just a bystander here.

You vote for warmongers, you get wars.

Seems a little harsh to condemn all Palestinians that way because a majority voted Hamas into power. Must be even worse for the Lebanese as they did not vote for Hezbollah to wage Iran’s proxy war from their communities.

a majority voted Hamas into power

Really? When was that? I keep hearing that Israel is the only “real” democracy in the Middle East?

And currently their eyes are on Iran, Americas #favorite enemy(In the middle east).

Last time they sided with Saddam in a war against Iran, so at least they are consistent.

Hitler was voted into power democratically.  As was Hamas.

Then both of them changed the rulebook…..

Then both of them changed the rulebook…..

Really? Which rules were they? The rules about elected parliamentarians being arrested by Israel? About US funding one party?

Then both of them changed the rulebook…..

One of the reasons that Israel is so successful with its propaganda is because its hasbara campaign deliberately misleads people into totally false narratives.

I am not criticising you MCTD because the claim that Hamas stopped elections from happening is widely believed. For a lot of people there is no reason to disbelieve it. Only people who take a keen interest in Palestine are likely to know that it was actually the Israeli government who “changed the rules”.

Abbas: Palestinian elections postponed after Israel blocks Jerusalem vote

https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/abbas-israel-said-no-to-palestinian-elections-in-jerusalem-666793

“We have decided to postpone the parliamentary elections until we ensure the participation of the people of Jerusalem,” Abbas said in a statement. “The elections must be held in all the Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem.”

Abbas announced the Palestinian elections were postponed in all Palestinian territories, including in Gaza, not Hamas.

The EU has long been frustrated with the Israeli government for blocking the Palestinian right to vote in East Jerusalem

EU accuses Israel of ignoring request to observe Palestinian elections

https://www.timesofisrael.com/eu-accuses-israel-of-ignoring-request-to-observe-palestinian-elections/

Palestinian elections would have occurred 3 years ago if it hadn’t been for Israel’s refusal to allow them in East Jerusalem.

You will note that neither the Jerusalem Post nor the Times of Israel refer to East Jerusalem, only “Jerusalem”. This is because not only is East Jerusalem under illegal occupation but Israel has now formally annexed it.

Donald Trump when he was US president famously approved of this annexation of East Jerusalem and moved the US Embassy to Jerusalem.

The UK refuses to recognise the illegal annexation and the British Embassy is in Tel Aviv, along with 90 other countries. Only 5 countries have their embassies in Jerusalem.

If the Palestinians agreed not to hold elections in East Jerusalem but in other occupied territories it would signal the acceptance of the illegal annexation of East Jerusalem.

This is a good watch/listen with William Dalrymple,

You do realise that there has been a turkey shoot going on in Gaza for the last 12 months don’t you? Yes it’s fine to condemn Hezbollah for lobbing missiles over the boarder…

(Disregarding decades of earlier conflict for brevity) the current conflict in Gaza started last year with the murders of Israelis, many of whom were young and unarmed. Iran’s ISNA news quoted a government spokesman who said, “What took place today is in line with the continuation of victories of the anti-Zionist resistance in different fields, including Syria, Lebanon and occupied lands.”

It isn’t just Hezbollah (or Hamas or the Houthis) lobbing missiles, but the active hand of Iran supplying weapons and working through a network of proxies, which they have done for decades. The Iranian leadership opposes the US involvement in the region and wants to regain what they see as occupied Palestinian land and won’t stop in those aims.

…but why aren’t Western nations putting a stop to the current genocide in Gaza?

How can they? Iran has doubled down on the attacks by its proxies by openly attacking Israel with c200 missiles on Tuesday. Until now Iran has largely operated behind the scenes, but the threat has always been there, so the US feels that refusing to supply weapons isn’t an option.

Why isn’t Iran putting a stop to the current conflict in Gaza by withdrawing weapons from Hamas and Hezbollah?

The situation in Gaza won’t have a chance of a solution until every party involved acknowledges the death and consequences for ordinary people and acts in concert to stop

Last time they sided with Saddam in a war against Iran, so at least they are consistent.

Last time Iran sat back while the US-led coalition attacked Saddam. Iran acted according to their script and supplied their Hezbollah proxy with IEDs and other weapons, waiting for the inevitable vacuum left by their foes in Iraq.

Around 2500 US troops remain in Iraq and that will be reduced in 2025

The Iranian leadership opposes the US involvement in the region and wants to regain what they see as occupied Palestinian land and won’t stop in those aims.

Regain? When where occupied Palestinian territories ever part of Iran? The only thing that has drawn countries in the region closer to  Palestine is zionism. Culturally,. ethnically, and religiously, Iran and the Palestine are quite separate.

And it is perfectly acceptable to support the end of Israel’s illegally occupation of Palestine, there are lot of things to criticise Iran for but I don’t think that’s one of them – it is actually United Nations policy, which obviously Israel ignores.

On the question of US involvement in the region thanks to the Americans Iran is now the major foreign power in Iraq. They used to be sworn enemies and fought a truly horrendous and brutal War.. So I doubt the Iranian regime are crying into their cornflakes over that.

It reminds of the Israeli journalist Gideon Levy’s comment…… Western strategy in the region is “kill first, think later”

From Rivals to Allies: Iran’s Evolving Role in Iraq’s Geopolitics – April 2024

From Rivals to Allies: Iran’s Evolving Role in Iraq’s Geopolitics

Moreover, the alignment of Iraq’s political orientation with that of Iran has the effect of augmenting the latter country’s overall regional standing. This alignment not only reinforces Iran’s position but also serves as a counterbalance to the influence of regional competitors, such as Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates (UAE), Qatar, and Türkiye. This strategic significance underscores the importance of Iraq in Iran’s broader regional aspirations.

Regain?

Poor choice of words

Iran wants the US and Israel out of the region

So I doubt the Iranian regime are crying into their cornflakes over that.

Isn’t that what I said?

You could start an argument with yourself and carry it on for, ooh, 36 pages :)

Isn’t that what I said?

I never made any claim about you said. You brought up the issue of US involvement in the region so I took it further with “on the question of US involvement in the region” and went into greater detail with regards to the changing geopolitics.

If we are both in agreement what are you arguing about? That I shouldn’t have highlighted the case of Iraq?

My Jewish British-Israeli accountant has just informed me that today is the Hebrew New Year. So happy 5784 to anyone who is Jewish on this thread. I know two stwers are at least part-jewish but I sure there will be more.

As my accountant pointed out …… you have been counting longer!

The situation in Gaza won’t have a chance of a solution until every party involved acknowledges the death and consequences for ordinary people and acts in concert to stop

You’re not wrong, but after all the word games the fact is that one side has directly killed over 50,000 people and reduced a population of a million to starvation, disease and destitution, destroying every vestige of infrastructure in a defenceless territory. I’d say that the onus was on them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?

Iran wants the US and Israel out of the region

If only that nice Mr Shah were still in charge

The new year is 5785.

Abbas announced the Palestinian elections were postponed

And was roundly criticised for doing so. Especially by Hamas who had boycotted the elections anyway before Israel stuck its oar in.  But given that Hamas (like Hezbollah) aren’t interested at all in democracy, social justice or human rights,  elections as far as they’re concerned; aren’t the basis for their legitimacy.

I’d say that the onus was on them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?

I’d say that the onus was on all of them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?

I’d say that the onus was on all of them to stop the madness, wouldn’t you ?

Damn those Palestinians. They keep selfishly dying.

Damn those Palestinians.

The ordinary citizens of Palestine, Israel, Iran, Lebanon, Yemen, Syria or anywhere else have very little power to stop conflict. But you knew that didn’t you?