Gaza

It is frankly beyond belief that anyone should challenge that claim.

Strawman. Nobody has challenged any claim that Palestinians are suffering. It’s the claim that only Palestinians are suffering you’re getting shit for.

I can’t see Israel letting this one go like they did last time and the states are in full election mode so politics will be different this time. I am really afraid this is the major escalation point everyone has been worried about, I hope I am very wrong.

And to get my two penneth I have no useful contribution to make Ernie and DrJ you both make very valid points about the suffering on the Palestian side being orders of magnitude worse but you’ve both been extremely partisan on this thread and seem to dismissing the suffering on the Israeli side, not all Israelis, possibly the majority are backing their government’s  actions, which to be blunt passed the point of acceptability months ago. I don’t think personal attacks on other posters is helping to get your points over either.

It’s your dismissal of the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare that is causing the upset.

Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can’t.

I am quite upset at the attempts to compare 1,200 dead Israelis with the 17,000 dead Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then btw.

And to move on, any comments about the article in the Haatetz which clearly suggests that at least some of the Israelis who died on Oct 7 were deliberately killed by the IDF implementing the Hannibal Directive?

Is that not significant? Why is it getting ignored?

the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side

A claim you’ve doubled down on and the bit where you agreed the original civilian deaths don’t count.

Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can’t.

Do you have short term memory loss? You’ve done exactly that 3 times in the last two pages:

the only civilian suffering is on the Palestinian side

That is a complete sentence, not open to interpretation. By using “only” you are excluding any non-Palestinian suffering, thereby dismissing it.

Just tentatively stepping into the thread as it’s not my intention to fan any flames.

That initial Hamas attack was truly evil. I can think of no reasonable justification for it. 

The trouble is, we also have the Israeli State that has retaliated, as it had every right, but seems to have long ago exceeded any reasonable response that could be expected.

Hamas original attack is totally unjustifiable but Israel’s government seems hell bent on losing any moral high ground it had.

It’s all deeply sad and nihilistic from every angle.

This is the legacy of 1948 when the colonial power decided that their superiority could not be challenged by giving birth to Israel, but they ignored the concept of time.  Yes, time.

The current escalation is going to be slow, very slow on all sides but the pressure is building up all over the world.

The war is coming and it will be a major one when it actually happens but not now, because the current situation is just the justification for the future actions on all sides. i.e. the big one.

For some reasons I sense the footprint of Israeli influence all over the western world, where they are especially efficient at managing the western apex power to the point of commanding them to further their objectives. Expansion, dominance etc whatever, then after a while the process of shrinking starts like all the historical events of the past.

I am quite upset at the attempts to compare 1,200 dead Israelis with the 17,000 dead Palestinian children killed by the IDF since then btw.

Then the upset is entirely of your own doing.

Let’s have a thread tally:

Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0

Dismissals of Palestinian, Lebanese, etc. deaths: 0

Dismissals of Israeli, migrant worker, tourist deaths: at least 3

Some might find that quite upsetting.

Hamas original attack is totally unjustifiable but Israel’s government seems hell bent on losing any moral high ground it had.

A voice of reason

the only civilian suffering IS on the Palestinian side

I am obviously talking about the current situation, not the situation a year ago. But you knew that.of course.

Nowhere have I dismissed the deaths and suffering of  Israelis. Really the nitpicking says it a all.

Nowhere have I said that Israeli deaths don’t count. So since we all agree that Israeli civilians deaths count how about some comments on the Hannibal Directive?

Or are we dismissing Israeli deaths as not important if they are killed by the IDF?

Moral high ground?  LOL

The day the colonial power (anyone no exception) set foot on the soil of others they lost all their morality.

Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0

So you are not counting all the Palestinians who died before Oct 7? They count as 0?

Nearly 700 Palestinians have died in the West Bank in the last year, and they were dieing before that. Indeed it was claimed that due to the Israelis killing so many Palestinians before Oct 7 that another  intifada was brewing and Hamas launched their attack is an attempt to grab the initiative.

It’s weird how Palestinian lives don’t count

I am obviously talking about the current situation

So all the displaced Israelis in the north aren’t suffering, all the Israelis who have relatives held hostage aren’t suffering, the Israelis who lost loved ones in the armed forces aren’t suffering, the Israelis cowering in bunkers tonight aren’t suffering. Sure Palestinian suffering is on a different level but you can’t just dismiss the real Israeli suffering because it doesn’t fit your agenda.

Long before Oct 7 2023

2022 becomes the deadliest year for Palestinian children in the West Bank in over 15 years 

https://www.savethechildren.org.uk/news/media-centre/press-releases/2022-becomes-the-deadliest-year-for-palestinian-children-in-west

Do they count or do you want to dismiss them?

The IDF have been killing Palestinians since 1948. But for some people the total is 0

Any comments about the Hannibal Directive, or don’t Israelis killed by the IDF matter/count?

So you are not counting all the Palestinians who died before Oct 7? They count as 0?

I’m struggling to understand the mental hoops you must have jumped through to get that from even a single one of my posts here.

But you carry on with your nonsensical attempts to divert attention away from your crystal clear, tripled-down on feelings about non-Palestinian suffering. We can all read your words Ernie. We can all read mine. And I’m confident that whilst I’ll often come across as a prick, I’ve never been quite so off colour as you in this matter.

So all the displaced Israelis in the north aren’t suffering, all the Israelis who have relatives held hostage aren’t suffering, the Israelis who lost loved ones in the armed forces aren’t suffering, the Israelis cowering in bunkers tonight aren’t suffering.

“Suffering” is obviously a relative thing. For some people “suffering” describes watching Sunderland every Saturday. Being forced to leave your home and hide in a bunker may meet some definition of “suffering”, but compared with, say, watching your infant daughter having her leg ampatated without anaesthesia because the Israelis bombed the hospital, it doesn’t really get on the same page. And calling both experiences by the same name – “suffering” – without qualification, is an expression of equivalence that simply can’t be allowed to take root.

I’m struggling to understand the mental hoops you must have jumped through to get that from even a single one of my posts here.

You clearly stated that the total Palestinian deaths when Hamas launched their attack had been, quote, 0

Obviously you are not counting dead Palestinians, you are dismissing them.

Here 14 years before Oct 7 2023 Gerald Kaufman stands on the floor of the House of Commons denouncing Israel’s killing of Palestinians. Why do you sweep them under the carpet?

Jeezus. Is it any wonder why there are wars and escalating tensions in the world. If a bunch of spectators on the sidelines of a forum can’t accept/see the other sides views on a topic and have a calm discussion what hope is there of opposing nations with years of history doing so.  This sort of thread always descends into the same outcome of whataboutery and posters shouting at the moon. People will have different opinions, especially on such sensitive topics, stop trying to be the one to shout loudest.

At the risk of trying to rationally assess anything rather than have another 34 pages of shit throwing…

but Israel’s government seems hell bent on losing any moral high ground it had.

With Netanyahu, I don’t believe having the moral high ground is his real concern.  It’s about his remaining in power. And continuing (and even escalating) the war makes him more popular amongst a many of voters n Israel.

What Iran has just dome however is gifted him the excuse to go further on the attack.

In all the death and injury on all sides, don’t lose sight that it’s really Iran that is the big shit stirrer in the region.

Well that is obviously untrue, because if was true you would be to copy and paste the bit where I dismissed the deaths and suffering of the Israelis at the start of this nightmare. But obviously you can’t.

So I thought I’d pop back to the Another war in Palestine thread that was started on Oct 7th, and it seems you spent at least the first few pages denying that Israeli civilians had been targeted at all.

Another war in Palestine

You clearly stated that the total Palestinian deaths when Hamas launched their attack had been, quote, 0

For ****’s sake Ernie. Read before you post. It’s embarrassing.

These are my exact words. You yourself quoted them.

Attempts to claim equivalence of 1195 Israeli deaths with tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths: 0

Dismissals of Palestinian, Lebanese, etc. deaths: 0

Dismissals of Israeli, migrant worker, tourist deaths: at least 3

Point to the bit where I “clearly stated” zero Palestinian deaths. I can see where I said “tens of thousands”. Help me out Ernie. Where did I say zero?

Apologies Flyingox, in that case it wasn’t clear to me that you were claiming that no one had made a comparison, I think it was very clear to me that an attempt was made to compare the suffering of Palestinians with the suffering of Israelis. I have no idea where you get “O” from. This whole tangent is precisely about that.

Any views about the Hannibal Directive?

So I thought I’d pop back to the Another war in Palestine thread that was started on Oct 7th, and it seems you spent at least the first few pages denying that Israeli civilians had been targeted at all.

If you are going go through all the effort of trawling through a thread that was closed almost the year ago you might have might as well have made the extra effort of copying and pasting the bits that you didn’t like.

I have no idea what you are referring to but obviously if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one. Any reasonable person will understand that, although those who believe that Hamas are solely motivated by being “evil” might not.

They probably also believe that Hamas decapitated babies. Did you know that Joe Biden said that he saw photographs of babies who had decapitated by Hamas? Unfortunately a day or two later the White House denied that he had.

Any thoughts about the IDF targeting Israelis?

obviously if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one.

They killed 364 people dancing at a music festival. They machine gunned farm hands and families sheltering in Kibbutz safe rooms. They fire unguided rockets indiscriminately into Israel, including at me. And you’re talking about them obviously choosing military targets?

Character.

[Mod] we’re now closing this thread but it will be reopened tomorrow.

As I was listening to the Today Programme earlier I wondered if it was now part of the BBC Charter to gift at least one 5 minute slot each morning to an Israeli/Zionist propagandist.

<Rolleyes Emoji>

Any comments about the Hannibal Directive, or don’t Israelis killed by the IDF matter/count?

Just when you think it can’t get any madder, along comes information that the IDF has a directive that to  prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers by enemy forces  it says that “the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces.”  A UN commission report found that on 07 October this directive was applied by the IDF and they killed Israeli civilians and soldiers rather than let them be used as hostages by Hamas………………

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal_Directive

Seems pretty rational to me, given the circumstances.

With Netanyahu, I don’t believe having the moral high ground is his real concern.  It’s about his remaining in power.

I agree completely. Netanyahu was on his way out before all of this. I have friends and colleagues in Israel and visited 3-4 times per year before the trouble really began. There was a significant division amongst the population with the younger generations railing hard against Netanyahu. Nothing like a good war to pull people together (or force them to support the encumbent).

On the subject of suffering being debated(?) above, I don’t know anyone in Gaza or Palestine but am sure they are all suffering. I can say for sure that the Israelis I know are definitely suffering, it’s a relatively small country and fairly close knit society. Most of them will have lost someone. Their hearts are breaking. I was messaging some of them last night while they were in shelters and I can assure you they were not having a good time.

For the keyboard warriors / big hitters on here who believe everything they see and read, please just stop for a moment and realise that there are real people on both sides of this conflict. They didn’t choose this path yet they are the ones who will suffer the most.

Just when you think it can’t get any madder, along comes information that the IDF has a directive that to prevent the capture of Israeli soldiers by enemy forces it says that “the kidnapping must be stopped by all means, even at the price of striking and harming our own forces.”

That’s been pretty prevalent throughout the history of warfare. Whether it’s a formal named plan is a separate discussion. If I was an Israeli soldier, especially a female soldier, I think a quick death from my own side might be the better option.

War is horrific for everyone involved.

War is horrific for everyone involved.

Less so if you’re sat behind a desk in a nice bomb-proof building, though.

I’m sure that’s what Nasrallah thought too

I was messaging some of them last night while they were in shelters

I was messaging my friend’s mum in Gaza. Oh. No i wasn’t. She didn’t have a shelter and she’s dead now. Still. No winners, eh?

I was messaging my friend’s mum in Gaza. Oh. No i wasn’t. She didn’t have a shelter and she’s dead now. Still. No winners, eh?

I’m sorry for your friends loss. How is that the fault of the ordinary people hiding in shelters who didn’t ask for this war?

I can say for sure that the Israelis I know are definitely suffering,

According to someone in Israel a week ago :

TheFlyingOx

Full Member

My source is being in Israel and walking about, seeing people buying cars and eating in restaurants and dancing in nightclubs and going to work ……

It doesn’t quite sound like Gaza does it? Are there any restaurants and nightclubs left in Gaza?

To try to push this “the Israelis are also suffering” line, and suggest some sort of equivalence is absurd. Any reasonable person knows that.

Quite frankly, I think I’d prefer a quick death from my own side than being taken hostage by Hamas.

Would you feel better if they were also living and dying in bombed out buildings Ernie? What level of suffering is required for you to acknowledge someones pain?

I thought long and hard before posting in this thread, I generally avoid them for exactly this binary view of the world. I’ll leave you to it.

if Hamas has the possibility of targeting an IDF target or a civilian target they will go for the military one

Can’t believe I have read that. Hamas don’t care as long as the target is Israeli. I take it you have seen the body-cam footage from the Hamas attack? Supporting the Palestinian people is one thing, attempting to justify Hamas is something quite different.

What Hamas did was unforgiveable, Israel’s response is totally unforgiveable. Neither side care who they kill, friend or foe. My thoughts are with the innocents on both sides.

#edit: “I thought long and hard before posting in this thread, I generally avoid them for exactly this binary view of the world. I’ll leave you to it.” – Ditto.

Well I wasn’t walking around in the middle of the largest ballistic missile attack in history, was I? I was in a secure shelter, as was pretty much everyone else in Israel.

You keep taking about “equivalence” when nobody else has. Is this “equivalence” in the room with you now, Ernie?

How is that the fault of the ordinary people hiding in shelters who didn’t ask for this war?

Well it’s only the fault of those who are backing this senseless slaughter which in so far has cost the lives of 47,000 Palestinians in the last 12 months, 70% of them women and children.

Obviously it isn’t the fault who those don’t support Netanyahu far-right government and what it is doing in Gaza, such as Gideon Levy for example, but all the evidence is that a large majority of Israelis support what the IDF are doing in Gaza.

Although to be fair this should be seen in the context of Israelis being fed  false narratives by a neo-fascist government. Many genuinely believe the Israeli government lies that aid into Gaza isn’t being hampered, so they are unlikely to have a true picture of the situation.

I wouldn’t be surprised if the 47,000 dead Palestinians including 17,000 was widely dismissed as untrue. People tend not to believe the horrors committed in their name, hence Holocaust denial.