Fracking: Good, Bad or Ugly?

Any particular reason why fracking needs to be done away from the existing road network?

By the same token, is the UK landscape like that of the expansive US?

Tazzy….. Are you seriously suggesting that peoples main objection to fracking is on the grounds of what it might look like? Dear god! You really have been paying attention to the debate, haven’t you?

Yes ,the main protest at the moment is people complaining about the potential ruination of their majestic, scenic views. In Salford. 🙄

I live in what is ‘the countryside’. I also live in what could be termed a ‘post-industrial landscape’, scarred with the derelict remnants of our polluting industrial past. They’re the same thing. So I’ve not got any misty-eyed ideas of what does, and does not, constitute the ‘countryside’. And here’s the view from my bedroom window….

So I can’t be accused of nimbyism either. I love the turbines. I think they add to the landscape. Fracking is about as far away from them as its possible to get. But thanks for your incredibly well informed opinion. A good counter to my ‘hysterical ramblings’ 😀

By the same token, is the UK landscape like that of the expansive US?

No, its much better – lots of little wooded areas where Fracking would have almost no impact on the surrounding area

ahhhh I didn’t claim you were rambling hysterically, but I’m glad you spotted the titanic scaled irony in my post 😀

I do miss the days of the full on ranting loons, you could get them going for hours with a gently phrased quip and a bit of a head start

I’m sure I’ve no idea who you’re talking about

*goes misty eyed with fond memories*

😀

Storage and containment of chemicals and drilling MUDs/flow back fluids will be extremely tight, environmental monitoring will also be crazy high.

So the pro-fracking argument seems to include the point that “well, even if fracking in the US was an absolute environmental clusterfuzzle, we in the UK will do it properly”.

Are there any examples anywhere of fracking being actually done in the way the pro-frackers say that it ought to be done in the UK? Or is that a unicorn that still has to be ring fenced?

It is incredible to see what has been achieved in Japan since the Fukushima. They have closed down almost all of their nuclear capacity but through a process of implementing intensive top down energy efficiency measures, there has been little reduction in quality of life.

Essentially we are so wasteful with energy there is a lot of capacity for improvement. But this will only be achieved by energy shortages and higher prices.

We probably do need some fracking to give us a gas stopgap, but my worry is that all the money spent capitalising those markets would be better spent on large scale renewables and associated infrastructure like energy storage (expensive).

Another concern about fracking is that we don’t know the scale of the available potential reserves. My guess is that a lot of drilling sites will open, produce brilliant for a short while and then run out. This will lend to more drilling and more problems in other areas – all the while other countries will be investing in renewables and moving ahead. Leaving us stuffed when the short term gas runs out.

Also the financial markets that are hyping up the fracking opportunities in a way that is just stupid and blind to the environmental risks (local and global).

While wind turbines may not be ugly, if you had fracking you wouldn’t see a thing apart from the clouds/mist and hills in that pic.

well if you look at the number of COMAH and permitted sites in the UK that have managed without a post apocalyptic wasteland breaking out every 5 minutes, it would maybe kinda indicate that the UK do sort of know what they are doing with regards the regulation, monitoring and enforcement. In fact it’s one of the reasons why so much manufacturing of “interesting” chemicals and other fun things went overseas from the UK as our environmental legislation was too onerous. (an yes cheapo wages helped as well, but in the UK we apply abatement technology to the level where every other country just points and laughs) 😀

thisisnotaspoon

marine life is thriving

i’m sorry but i’m not sure how you can say that.
an ocean full of algae is not a thriving ecosystem, all of the top predators in the area are in serious trouble. bioindicator studies show the area has not recovered http://www.eenews.net/assets/2013/12/18/document_gw_06.pdf

i was asking about reassurance that problems will be dealt with if they occur on an unconventional gas extraction site in the uk, and you have given me an example of the petro-chemical industry doing the bare minimum to not be prosecuted and leaving a whole area of ocean in disarray

It is incredible to see what has been achieved in Japan since the Fukushima. They have closed down almost all of their nuclear capacity but through a process of implementing intensive top down energy efficiency measures, there has been little reduction in quality of life.

Rubbish, they have increased LNG imports, in 2012 consuming 37% of the worlds LNG, making it the biggest user of LNG, followed by 2nd biggest user of coal and 3rd of oil. What’s worse is their manufacturing industry is being hit by the increased energy costs of importing it all and hence, is becoming noncompetitive compared to it’s rivals China, Korea, Taiwan etc. Worst thing to happen to Japan was turning off nuclear, and it looks like Germany will make the same mistake.

Question Time last night was packed full of lies regarding fracking, with the BBC propaganda wheels turning, you have to understand the facts and read between the lines to see the real truth.

In one example the tory rep kept repeating over and over that bills would come down thanks to fracking, however his own Lord Browne and chairman of Caudrilla has said bills would not come down…. and what Lord Browne Says Happens….

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2013/nov/29/browne-fracking-not-reduce-uk-gas-prices-shale-energy-bills

I posted this before but please give yourself some time to view this doc The Truth Behind The Dash For Gas 2014
http://youtu.be/xU_J6lyKZA4

I least with wind farms we can take them down when something better comes along, and new solar is moving on a stride http://themindunleashed.org/2013/12/glass-sphere-might-revolutionize-solar-power-earth.html plus Fusion was even mentioned on Question Time last night but suppression of new/free energy has a long and checkered history….

Telsa Invented Wireless electricty transmission and it was suppressed by JP Morgan who owned the copper cable rights and wanted to put up pylons, Morgon funded Tesla but cut him off to focus on his more profitable schemes, this business model for energy is typical and affects every aspect of our world.

Is it that no-one has anything more to say, or are you scared of the implications of the world around you being rife with manipulation and skullduggery, fuelled by the all too powerful oil barons and banks that finance them, with the politicians and their executive consultancies tying in for healthy scraps of profit…

So the pro-fracking argument seems to include the point that “well, even if fracking in the US was an absolute environmental clusterfuzzle, we in the UK will do it properly”.

Are there any examples anywhere of fracking being actually done in the way the pro-frackers say that it ought to be done in the UK? Or is that a unicorn that still has to be ring fenced?

Well back on the first page someone posted a link to an article which included a referance to a study which pointed to 1 contaminated well out of 200, so that’s 199 examples of getting it done right. Hardly an environmental bit of a mess.

From what I have read a gas fracking well will stay in place for roughly 4 years. Then it will close down as it is not efficient to send the underground pipes to far. It will then move to another place above the same field and start again.
So once those with aesthetic problems about the eyesore understand this and with a judicious bit of bribery of the local population they will probably be happy enough. Obviously this does not apply to the antis as this is there latest hobby horse. If we can find them something else to whine about. Any ideas? Don’t bring up fox hunting as we have already conned them into believing that doesn’t go on anymore

I don’t think anybody had actually mentioned the physical appearance of a tracking well being the problem. I believe there are 1 or 2 industrial structures that have already been built in the north of England, that maybe aren’t the most aesthetically pleasing

The US has no ability to export gas (liquefied) probably the main reason it is so cheap there. At the same time all new wells have been cancelled because of the glut. If the same continues in the rest of the world they will be give it away.

I remember during one recession North Sea oil fell to 10 dollars a barrel From a 100 a barrel. OK it was a recession but the same rule of supply and demand applies. Also gas will be cheaper in the UK due to reduced transport costs.

A mini electricity generator has been created so that a home can produce its own electricity from gas but it is integrated into the heating system. The excess is put into the local grid. The basis of the idea is it is more efficient to transport gas than electricity (Huge amounts of electricity are losses in transmission) I interesting idea?

Thank god we’ve got fiercely competitive energy firms renowned for instantly passing on any reduction in the price of fuel directly onto consumers eh? And ploughing any profits straight back into infrastructure investment.

God bless capitalism!

.I don’t think anybody had actually mentioned the physical appearance of a tracking well being the problem. I believe there are 1 or 2 industrial structures that have already been built in the north of England, that maybe aren’t the most aesthetically pleasing

I got the impression they were going in rural areas like Bowland. So not a lot of Industrial structures in rural areas 😯

@thisisnotaspoon, I fully respect your commitment to your industry, it appears you are informed by and surrounded by the safety and regulations that have been your life for how-ever long, however the track record of fracking in the uk in its sort history is far from looking great. actual cracks in houses in blackpool resulting in house prices in free fall… “at priest hall 60 seismic events from just 6 fracking treatments” quote from Dash for Gas (see my link above) . Caudrilla failing to report faulty casing for six months, and is it not true that faulty casings cause most well problems. Your total believe in the safety of the industry is heartwarming and your commitment to this thread is profound how ever what do they do with the waste water they claim is safe, they spray it on the roads, or leave it to evaporate leaving toxic pools. In the US where the ground water has become unusable the companies bring water for the locals and if they speak out they are threatened with water being stopped. the list of issues goes on and on and thinking its the UK we do it better, I’m not so sure i have your faith, after all if that 1 well in 200 is near your water supply or near your cracked house how would that make you feel?

I got the impression they were going in rural areas like Bowland. So not a lot of Industrial structures in rural areas

Have you ever been to the rural idyl of Salford?

.binners – Member
Thank god we’ve got fiercely competitive energy firms renowned for instantly passing on any reduction in the price of fuel directly onto consumers eh? And ploughing any profits back straight into infrastructure?

God bless capitalism! . As they buy there energy in advance then it is unlikely that would happen. The infrastructure has nothing to do with the energy firms it is the grid that supposed to invest in infrastructure.

god bless capitalism

now you do have point here, under the Soviet union etc everyone was equally….worse off. Makes you wish you could have those days back……..ohhh I just remembered North Korea there will be no problem getting in….although if you change your mind, getting out might not be so easy. 😀

ninfan you really need to go and do some reading and learning from non-biased sources.

internationally endangered SSSI moorland

SSSI isn’t an international designation.

So the pro-fracking argument seems to include the point that “well, even if fracking in the US was an absolute environmental clusterfuzzle, we in the UK will do it properly”.

Are there any examples anywhere of fracking being actually done in the way the pro-frackers say that it ought to be done in the UK? Or is that a unicorn that still has to be ring fenced?

I don’t know too much about the little that has gone on so far here, but things will be very different here, eg they’ll have to declare the chemicals they inject into the ground and there will be a much smaller range they can choose from. They’ll also have to treat the wastewater in line with our legislation which they didn’t have to do in the states, where it has been dumped and even poured out along public roads to dispose of it.

Going to be interesting how they manage that in the UK. Also the lorry traffic is going to be a major issue in the UK, many of the locations will be down small country roads not designed for thousands of HGV trips. Site remediation will be a bigger issue here too. it will be quite different from the US but I still wouldn’t want to be anywhere near where it is going on.

It’s most likely to be something I’ll end up working in unless I change career, not sure if that is a good thing or a bad ting yet…

alexrankin – Member

@thisisnotaspoon, I fully respect your commitment to your industry, it appears you are informed by and surrounded by the safety and regulations that have been your life for how-ever long, however the track record of fracking in the uk in its sort history is far from looking great. actual cracks in houses in blackpool resulting in house prices in free fall… “at priest hall 60 seismic events from just 6 fracking treatments” quote from Dash for Gas (see my link above) . Caudrilla failing to report faulty casing for six months, and is it not true that faulty casings cause most well problems. Your total believe in the safety of the industry is heartwarming and your commitment to this thread is profound how ever what do they do with the waste water they claim is safe, they spray it on the roads, or leave it to evaporate leaving toxic pools. In the US where the ground water has become unusable the companies bring water for the locals and if they speak out they are threatened with water being stopped. the list of issues goes on and on and thinking its the UK we do it better, I’m not so sure i have your faith, after all if that 1 well in 200 is near your water supply or near your cracked house how would that make you feel?

First off, are you THE Alex Rankin? If so can you explain what the Law of Fives is/was? I’d clearly not taken enough drugs to understand it.

Evaporation ponds are a common way of treating water, let the bulk of the water evaporate (obviously this only works for water not comtaminated by light HC’s), dig up the sludge and send it to an incinerator. You may also be confusing waste water treatment with cooling water ponds (a cheep alternative to towers if lands available, just let the hot water cool in a big pond) or brine storage, both of which will have big “toxic – no swimming” signs, but aren’t glowing in the dark or full of cyanide or benzene.

Can you give me an example of it being sprayed on the roads, I’ve never heard of that? And in general if “they claim it’s safe”, it probably is, no one wakes up in the morning and thinks “I’m going to kill someone today, unless they’re a psycopath, and they tend not to be drawn into engineering.

In the US there’s less mains water, think of the arechetypal mid-west(where the shale is)ranch, house, midle of nowhere, with a water pump spinning away in the back garden. Which obviously gives rise to a risk of contamination of their water supply. And that’s a risk, not an absolute. If for example shale gas was found under Berkshire/Hampshire/Surrey then you’re not looking at one water supply, you’re talking about aquifers that supply London, Southamptn, and a few other million people in the South East. It’s beyond the limits of credibility to assume they’ll allow that to become contaminated.

unless they’re a psycopath, and they tend not to be drawn into engineering

they do have an alarming predisposition to becoming company directors or politicians though 😉

jonah tonto – Member
unless they’re a psycopath, and they tend not to be drawn into engineering
they do have an alarming predisposition to becoming company directors or politicians though

Who you calling a politician?

Yeah @thisisnotaspoon, for the Law of Fives, google it for more info, no Drug needed fella, Chaos Theory is more and more relevant and it five years since that film, btw!

Fracking waste on roads
http://www.care2.com/causes/new-york-roads-are-covered-in-snow-and-fracking-waste.html
and http://scalinggreen.com/2013/12/toxic-coal-ash-and-fracking-wastewater-used-to-de-ice-roads/
AND http://protectingourwaters.wordpress.com/2011/07/28/lets-dump-it-on-the-roads/

No, its much better – lots of little wooded areas

Smashing answer, Ratty… but I meant ‘expansive’ as in ‘lots of space’ – and how proximity issues might differ this side of the pond. Moreover, there is evident unease at both County & District Council level right across this country – and they have every right to object… whatever our grasping incumbent politicos and the likes of Lord Browne would prefer. If the more slavish proponents of fracking were to argue just as vigourously for energy control measures, I’d be more inclined to take them seriously (even if I don’t ultimately agree). But they don’t – and in that respect, I don’t much care to be lectured in the national media on why fracking is for my good, this country’s good, the greater good… Screw ’em.

. The infrastructure has nothing to do with the energy firms it is the grid that supposed to invest in infrastructure.

Can’t be arsed to read everything, but unless i am massively misreading this, this is ****

Who supplies the power to the energy billing companies?

It wouldn’t happen to be EDF or EON, RWE etc!!!

So the companies that own and run the power stations are the same that bill the consumers.

under the Soviet union etc everyone was equally….worse off.

Wrong.

.konabunny – Member
under the Soviet union etc everyone was equally….worse off.

Wrong.. Not the best of counter arguments. I should of course Have said I was quoting Churchill. I will rephrase it:- The vast majority were worse of. Obviously I should not have included Uncle Joe Stalin 😈

.mrmo – Member
. The infrastructure has nothing to do with the energy firms it is the grid that supposed to invest in infrastructure.
Can’t be arsed to read everything, but unless i am massively misreading this, this is ****

Who supplies the power to the energy billing companies?

It wouldn’t happen to be EDF or EON, RWE etc!!!

So the companies that own and run the power stations are the same that bill the consumers.. Sorry but my definition of the infrastructure is the grid the cables etc. The people who keep giving me £54 compensation for 18+ hours of outage.
If you are talking about the infrastructure being the power supply itself then i suggest you blame past and present governments for that. They are the ones who give the planning permission etc.
Moreover there are 34 companies billing consumers not 3. And they are separate entities to the power suppliers.

The willingness of Of the French to bankroll fracking in this country whilst it is constitutionally banned in their own speaks volumes!!!!!

May be of interest

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/blog/2014/jan/13/fracking-bribes-high-energy-prices

That government are a right bunch of cheeky kittens… wonder what the compensation scheme will be like when peoples homes start falling into sink holes[/url]

Probably be locked up for sullying the name of the energy companies

Only just caught up on this thread. First observation:

2) the gulf marine life is now thriving as the bacteria at the bototm of the food chain that eat the oil have attracted everything else to the area.

As a marine biologist I can tell you that is b0!!%.

A specific type of bacteria will thrive in such conditions. Partly because the hydrocarbons provide the specific conditions they need to live and party because competing bacteria have died. Many of the toxins in the oil bioaccumulate. That means they stay in the body of the organism that ate them. The further up the food chain the more of a problem it becomes. NOAA have linked dolphin deaths in the GOM to the oil spill. When the fluffy mega fauna starts dying then you know you have a problem in the whole ecosystem.

OK now off to learn about fracking (don’t think they are doing it offshore yet).

jivehoneyjive – Member
That government are a right bunch of cheeky kittens… wonder what the compensation scheme will be like when peoples homes start falling into sink holes

It probably won’t exist because the type of gas extraction that would take place in the UK wouldn’t create sinkholes?

Such media descriptions often omit the use of underground explosions to create increased rock splitting and pressure to facilitate the migration of the fuel. Shaped explosive charges are used, made of depleted uranium.

Wow, some interesting comments on that website you’ve linked to, first I’ve heard of high velocity armour piercing underground explosives!

Haven’t read a lot in the middle but in answer to the OP, I’m not that comfortable with it, personally I’d rather they spent money on developing Thorium powered nuclear reactors, I hate it that it’s the French benefiting, I hate it that we no longer have the CEGB and I’d love to be able to vote for a political party that supported re nationalisation of Utilities, Power, Water and Communication.

this is quite something

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/salford-anti-fracking-protester-sue-greater-6676499

Yep, the state of the nation… imagine how they’ll uphold the law when they have water cannons.