Forum House of Commons vote on air strikes in Syria – which way will you vote?

How long have intelligence services been supporting ‘moderate’ Syrian Rebels?

Was there ever a highly publicized parliamentary debate on the matter?

About that jet that violated your airspace…..

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/iraq-demands-withdrawal-turkish-troops-mosul-151205061510572.html

Police treat stabbing on Tube as terrorist attack

Guardian Link

The BBC reported on the latest Daesh video today, kids playing hide and seek, except once found those people where executed by the kids. 5 shot and the last one beheaded. I watched the video.

Do you spend a lot of time searching out and watching terrorist propaganda?

He’s a bleedin terrorist his self int he..

Poisoning our hearts and minds with hate, terror, lies and propaganda..
He needs a knock on the door from special branch I reckon

piemonster – Member
About that jet that violated your airspace…..

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/12/iraq-demands-withdrawal-turkish-troops-mosul-151205061510572.html

I think they have been there supporting semi autonomous Kurdish pechmergfr forces for over a year. The lot complaining are the Iran backed Baghdad government, Iran/Turkey are the big players locally looking to come out this with the Syrian oil.

Do you spend a lot of time searching out and watching terrorist propaganda?

It’s a bit of a worry isn’t it?

Presumably as jambalaya says the BBC “reported” the video, however he claims to have seen it which I believe might be a criminal offence, certainly if you search for ISIS propaganda it is likely to attract the attention of the security services, as yunki suggests.

Besides of course the moral implications :

If you watch Isis’s videos you are complicit in its terrorism

“Some internet users clearly find the unrelenting goriness of it all captivating – stonings, decapitations, throwing people off tall buildings, sticking severed heads on spikes. Perhaps there’s a compulsion to see just how far Isis will go. But the very act of choosing to witness these things makes us, in some way, complicit”.

As the article says, drawing people’s attention to them helps the terrorists achieve their traffic targets.

The lot complaining are the Iran backed Baghdad government

That’ll be the same Baghdad government which is fully backed by the US, the UK, and France.

@yunki I prefer to source news amd information from a broad variety of sources amd the intenret is fabulous for that, then I can make up my own mind. Mainstream news services here are consumed by political correctness, not least in the BBC decided that the name Daesh is not “fair” to use for IS. As an aisde Im in favour of full security monitoring of web/mobile etc and am perfectly happy for gchq to be aware I watched the video on heavy.com

Tristian Hunt on Stop the War Coaliion

We have also seen some pretty ugly comments from them about Hilary Benn and the fact that Hilary Benn should be sacked. And also their comments about Islamic State and about how the French almost had it coming to them. They are a really disreputable organisation. I would hope Jeremy would step back and not go to their fundraiser.”

Tristian Hunt on Stop the War Coaliion

Gosh, a blairite bomber is critical of Stop the War Coalition ….. whatever next?

Go on …… shock and amaze me by posting David Cameron’s opinions of Stop the War Coalition.

UK, US may have put that goverment in but there now just an extension of Tehran.

UK, US may have put that goverment in but there now just an extension of Tehran.

This.

All Shias. 2/3 of Iraq is a defacto province of Iran thanks to the UK/US getting rid of Saddam.

It would appear that the beheady, beardy ones have now simply upped sticks and moved to Libya.

When do we start bombing then?

he BBC decided that the name Daesh is not “fair” to use for IS

They said it was pejorative

I much prefer our brave leaders impartial description for them “This evil death cult ” IMHO only terrorist sympathisers dont use this term oh and commies but lets be honest who can tell them apart….remember that Mandela fella he was both.

It would appear that the beheady, beardy ones have now simply upped sticks and moved to Libya.

Saudis?

Meanwhile…

Libya. When do we start bombing then?

French have been running reconnaisance there this week. I’d say the French could start bombing IS there very soon.

@epic a fuller quote from McCain

“Air strikes alone won’t win a conflict but it’s good to have increased air strikes, it’s good to have increased air activities, it’s good to have shows of support from our British friends,” he noted. “So I’m glad of it, thank you, we appreciate it! But to say that it’s going to make a significant difference, no I’ve got to be a little more candid than that.”

jambalaya – Member – Block User – Quote

@epic a fuller quote…

😆

Oh the ironing…

jambalaya – Member

“But to say that it’s going to make a significant difference, no I’ve got to be a little more candid than that.”

So Senator McCain doesn’t think that UK air strikes in Syria will make a significant difference, well that’s not what Cameron was claiming.

Mind you I was describing the whole exercise a political stunt 5 days ago, so you obviously don’t need to be a fully paid up member of Mensa to work that one out.

http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/forum-house-of-commons-vote-on-air-strikes-in-syria-which-way-will-you-vote/page/13#post-7343770

I can’t help thinking that the money we are spending bombing Syria, if spent on support for the weak and vulnerable in our society would save more lives than the most dedicated ISIS attack could take.

You mean stuff like this epicyclo where more people die because of fuel poverty than from terrorist attacks?

Call for energy bill cuts as hypothermia deaths almost double

You sound like a Corbyn supporter. Which makes you a terrorist sympathiser and a threat to our security.

Any spare cash needs to be spent on bombs to kill people, not to save lives.

And it wins more votes too.

After reading a lot more about the actual circumstances in the region I have moved from an instinctive “no to bombing” position to a “bomb as part of a larger strategy” position.

Not that what I think matters and I’m not going to try and sway anyone on here,

Don’t you usually decide on a strategy and then choose the tactics (eg bombing) that seem appropriate – rather than fix upon a tactic and then search out a strategy that might fit?

In other words – what’s the strategy?

wilburt

After reading a lot more about the actual circumstances in the region I have moved from an instinctive “no to bombing” position to a “bomb as part of a larger strategy” position.

Not that what I think matters and I’m not going to try and sway anyone on here,

When I was watching the commons debate I was relieved to see that a lot of the objectors, particularly John Baron were voicing the same concerns as I felt however I was moved by the pro campaign MP’s who read out tweets and emails from people in Raqqah pleading for help. In fact all of the MPs who spoke for the motion emphasised how they would help civilians and attack ISIS headquarters as a matter of urgency. When the motion was passed I almost felt glad, perhaps the RAF would bomb ISIS positions in Raqqah, maybe they would improve peoples lives and free them from tyranny.

But no, the super accurate civilian friendly bombs are being used to attack infrastructure, controlling the flow of oil and money. So depressingly predictable. There’s no plan other than to get a finger in the pie and advertise british military hardware to dictators and warlords.

This sums it up for me – a sensible man who knows what he’s talking about (just a shame he’s a Tory).

ON SYRIA

In other words – what’s the strategy?

I don’t know, maybe someone else does, maybe they don’t, sometimes you don’t know the complete strategy just the next best thing to do, for me on balance that includes direct military attacks on ISIL and there supply line and a range of other less visible actions.

I’m not convinced the local players have much interest in ISIL, there just pawns in the power struggle, Turkey, Iran, Russia, Saudi would all happily support terrorists if it suited their needs.

Rory Stewart always seems to nail these things, he’s got the first hand experience.

you guys. aiming for 1000 posts?

Turkey, Iran, Russia, Saudi would all happily support terrorists if it suited their needs.

But not the US, the UK, or France?

You do realise that the UK only declared ISIS a terrorist organisation 18 months ago when they started threatening UK geopolitical interests in Iraq, don’t you?

When ISIS was operating primarily in Syria the UK government did not consider them be a terrorist organisation, and it wasn’t a criminal offence to be a member.

But not the US, the UK, or France?

Possibly (at least in the short term) although I think most people would think its less likely.

ISIL is selling oil and getting supplies through Turkey, they’re fighting the same people as Assad and as such Russia and have roughly the same beliefs as Saudi albeit recently fallen out.

Whilst the UK, US and France want whatever brings stability to the region and even better a government we can do business with.

Whilst the UK, US and France want whatever brings stability to the region and even better a government we can do business with.

Saddam and Assad were pillars of stability !!

Saddam and Assad were pillars of stability !!

Sadly Saddam’s regime, though heinous, was stable until wiped out by the world’s most powerful military.

where more people die because of fuel poverty

Oil, coal and gas are now at its lowest for years. You also want the government to remove the 8% environmental tax?

Below is from 2013, when energy prices were a lot higher.

Sadly Saddam’s regime, though heinous, was stable until

.. he bit his master’s hand and rode into Kuwait

Saddam and Assad were pillars of stability !!

Yup. I have a friend who was an archaeologist in Iraq under Saddam, his sister was a University Lecturer. They were of Arab descent but Christians and could walk about freely living what you or I would regard as a ‘normal’ western life with middle class western style jobs in spite of being no friends of the regeme and christian (rather than Sunni, like Saddam).

Saddam got awards for introducing universal education. How many kids do you think learned to read and write before Saddam?

Life under Saddam was stable, even if you were Christian or Shia. The accusation that he killed 200,000 over 30 years is put into perspective by what we’ve done to the place.

Life under Saddam was stable, even if you were Christian or Shia

This is the classic mistake in great power politics: “let’s stick with the strong man, he’ll keep things stable”. A pressure cooker over a flame is stable – right up until the point it explodes.

Dictatorial regimes don’t have the institutions necessary to ensure long term stability. They’re vulnerable to shock – so when the old man carks it (Tito, Assad) or overplays his hand (Hussein, Gadaffi, Mobutu), it all goes to crap.

It’s also weird to describe Hussein’s regime as stable when his ascent was almost immediately followed by a war of aggression against Iran (which they lost, with 250,000-500,000 killed and half a trillion dollars lost) and another one against Kuwait (which they lost, with 25-35,000 killed), and with a Kurdish insurrection, and countless plots and murders and assassinations and confrontations.

The post-Hussein regime has of course been a complete cluster****.

Yup. I have a friend who was an archaeologist in Iraq under Saddam, his sister was a University Lecturer. They were of Arab descent but Christians and could walk about freely living what you or I would regard as a ‘normal’ western life with middle class western style jobs in spite of being no friends of the regeme and christian (rather than Sunni, like Saddam).

My friend is a Kurd, the majority of her family were horrifically killed in a chemical weapon attack under Saddam instructions. Her father escaped and he and his family lived under the threat of death if they returned to their family home. So let’s not go suggesting that he was some benign dictator even if you weren’t a friend of the regime.

So what does a successful Arabic society look like?

Yeap! Knew that was going to happen … BBC news

It looks like UK joining in the bombing in Syria is just a form of UK trying to get rid of Assad. (no surprise there due to pressure from the minority shouting loudest in the UK)
Dangerous game if that is the case and don’t they get it? Getting rid of Assad means putting his people to death en mass so what’s this shite about precious human life eh? There will be revenge killing all over again. Also I do not intend to feed his population so leave him alone!

As usual being political correct when UK started bombing the target is actually Assad’s army as UK has been trying to get rid of Assad but sneakily said they were bombing SISI …

Simply put the West are staking the territory but need the excuse of get rid of Assad to start with a clean slate … They want to deal with SISI the Western ways and not the Russian ways. Again, playing gods and goatmen.

I am sure there will be another escalation if another Russian plane is shot down mistakenly.

If that is the case then stooopid PC West play directly into the hand of SISI just because of their stoopid intention to get rid of Assad. Now SISI have planes in the sky without them even having to fly one … Wahey!

Russia and Assad are not the enemies, SISI etc are so get that right!

🙄

edit: I will not be surprised if the matter of oil is also an objective to gain now … ya … oil.