https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59421259
This was presented in Parliament by a Tory MP claiming having females in such roles has led to young men turning to crime. Who the hell selects these delusional individuals as Parliamentary candidates??
There a thousands of potential role models for boys from their fathers to teachers, sports and pop stars, and actors. Surely Parliament has more important things to discuss.
Was Maggie T one of his role models?
What little boy doesn't want to grow up to be Sylvester McCoy?
Does this mean that all criminals were female before women began to get these tv and film roles?
Not sure why women can't be positive role models for boys.
Who the hell selects these delusional individuals as Parliamentary candidates??
Equally delusional local Tory Party members, who probably agree with him!
What a snowflake, I mean how insecure to you have to be to think this is a "thing"
It's true, all young males major life decisions are driven by the doctor's they remember from their youth; Tom Baker and Sylvester McCoy kept me on the straight and narrow. However Peter Davidson made me consider shoplifting and Colin Baker's stint resulted in my taking up arson for a while.
Of course there were other factors at play, the A-Team got me into nickel plated Kalashnikovs, Airwolf resulted in me constructing an advanced combat helicopter in my Dad's shed, and Murder she wrote convinced me never to visit Maine...
Oh and He-Man made me try to ride about on the cat for a bit...
What little boy doesn’t want to grow up to be Sylvester McCoy?
Or Peter Davidson.
Actually, forget that, I’ve just remembered who he was married to.
As far as the MP’s concerned, he’s probably just embarrassed about his feelings for his nanny.
I noticed he doesn’t say anything about rôle models for girls, though - except possibly Fanny Craddock.
What greater male role model could there be than our Prime Minister?
What greater male role model could there be than our Prime Minister?
Ahem:
*Stealth edit
“Son, when you grow up, consider how you interact with women at work, consider your closest relationships with women, consider your attitude to the truth, consider your attitude to public duty… if in doubt, ask yourself… ‘what would Boris Johnson do?’ …and do the opposite.”
Ahem
I’m sure poor little incel wannabe Tim pool would agree
https://twitter.com/estelar_l/status/1463807592262602752?s=21
He did have some important points to make to be fair, like the fact that male suicide rates are three times that of females, and 96% of prison inmates are male. This got slightly lost in his bizarre logic around role models though, which was always likely to happen given the clickbait nature of his speech.
Not sure why women can’t be positive role models for boys.
Not sure why men can't be positive role models for girls. But you would be forgiven for thinking otherwise.
We have men in very public positions of power everywhere. If they are setting a poor example, call them out. Don’t bemoan there being more women in big positive roles in TV and films these days (still fewer than men, but hey).
We have men in very public positions of power
We have women too, Head of State, Home Secretary, most senior police officer in the country, Head of the NHS, past prime ministers,
I have no problem with which gender they are, Im more interested in ability to do the job, not box ticking
Not sure why women can’t be positive role models for boys.
At the risk of having all of the flames, the reverse argument that there aren't enough female role models for girls has been used a *lot* by feminists.
otoh, it's not like there's a shortage of other male characters in things. Just choose one of those as a role model rather than getting hung up on this one.
Dr Who is a pretty shit role model to be fair. Not an actual Dr (like that other ne’er do well Dr Pepper), his house is a fake version of an emergency service call point and despite having a time machine appears to **** things up a fair bit and never fixes them.
I was a kid in the 80’s and can remember a couple of naff Doctors. The one with the curly hair and the one who looked like a cricket spectator who should be drinking Pimms. Probably explains my constant state of disappointment and disdain.
We have women too
We do indeed. An MP was bemoaning a lack of positive role models. The leader of his own party is a very visible leader of our country. Who is in a better position to set an example? More relevant than a Star Wars movie having a female lead. STOP THE PLANET - A FEMALE LEAD - IN A MOVIE AIMED AT KIDS - WHO CAN THE BOYS LOOK TO NOW - WHERE ARE ALL THE MEN! Oh, there’s one, in charge of the country.
Stupidity is not gender specific.
In any event I seem to remember Dr Who was actually a mass murderer on a grand scale - as I wiping out entire civilisations, hardly an ideal role model, whatever their gender!
Disclaimer - my Whovian knowledge may not actually be that good…
and Colin Baker’s stint resulted in my taking up arson for a while.
i may have misread that first time round 🙁
Playing devils advocate - and I'm sure this will fit well with the way I'm perceived on here.
There is a culture these days of female empowerment, black empowerment, LGBT+ empowerment, which of course is no bad thing at all (as long as you aren't ostracised for not being one of the aforementioned). However, this does seem to be coupled with being a straight, white, British male is inversely a bad thing to be.
In fact, celebrities spouting off how embarrassed they are to be British (men) et al epitomises this, coupled with a cancel culture
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution. Not sure why this would lead someone to turn to crime, but just a perspective that may be worth considering.
I await the flames
What?!?!
Judas ****ing priest.
Probably the best podcast I've heard from this man. Although he does his usual trick of pushing his agenda and attempts to put words in Theodore's mouth, which he takes in his stride!
Wrong messenget, clumsy comparison but the underlying truth is that boys are doing less well at every level of school in western developed countries. They are underrepresented at every level of advanced education. They are less healthy, die earlier (which is changing as more women age throught the workforce). Etc. Etc.
So yeah, maybe we should be paying a bit more attention if you have a son but also if you have a daughter, if you want her to have some choices for husband/life partner.
Boys are more likely to look at males as role models and girls are more likely to look at women for role models.
In fact, celebrities spouting off how embarrassed they are to be British
Happens a lot on here, and I'm never sure if it's posturing or just over sensitivity.
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution.
Only if its presented to them that way by older white males who should know better.
Well every day is a school day (I'm not a big Simpsons fan in my defence)
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution
Young, white, British males are “left behind “ because they’re poor not because non-whites, LGBT’s, women, whoever else the right want to label is doing them down. Ironically Young, white, British males are getting comprehensively shagged by old white British males on the right runnning the UK, but crack on looking for someone else to blame.
Ironically Young, white, British males are getting comprehensively shagged by old white British males on the right runnning the UK, but crack on looking for someone else to blame.
I’m not entirely sure that I’d put it in quite those terms, but I understand what you’re getting at. I think.
I'm guessing said MP would hold up the PM as the perfect role model? Incredible stuff.
Terrible context used by the MP for some actual problems society does need to face.
Young, white, British males are “left behind “ because they’re poor not because non-whites, LGBT’s, women, whoever else the right want to label is doing them down. Ironically Young, white, British males are getting comprehensively shagged by old white British males on the right runnning the UK, but crack on looking for someone else to blame.
What?
No war but the culture war.
What?
The irony of a Tory MP blaming the rise in gang violence when his governments austerity has closed over 1000 sure start centres, 1000 youth centres, seen child poverty and inequality increase dramatically...
Blaming poor white kids for not understanding is nonsensical (much gang violence is carried out by non white Kuds for a start)
Poverty is the problem here, it's got nothing to do with who's Dr who
^^^^Exactly.
Unfortunately you know what the answer is going to be don't you, the same answer they have trotted out before and voters lap up.
That's right moar stick, more police cos them streets ain't safe anymore.
It's amazing that the MP in question skipped over the impact that the loss of 20,000 police, the systematic defunding of the Ministry of Justice, the closure of Sure Start centres, the widening generational wealth gap and has asserted that it's the fault of Ghostbusters and the latest incarnation of time travelling weirdo who abducts people having one fewer penises than their predecessor.
I do wonder if the voters in his constituency, who elected the wee daft Nick Fletcher MP with a majority of 3,650 votes might be experiencing buyers remorse?
Oh and Kimbers is bang on, <polite applause>
However the MP in question could just be a typical Tory.
Playing devils advocate
No you aren't.
this does seem to be coupled with being a straight, white, British male is inversely a bad thing to be.
No it isn't, outside of people who want you to believe it is, and whatever flights of fancy you've just invented.
This is little different from the "all lives matter" backlash to the BLM movement - no-one is saying that white lives don't matter, rather that was never in question to start with.
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution.
No they don't, beyond toxic fragile masculinity. The notion that "young white men" might feel persecuted is a) bullshit of the highest order and b) would be a welcome change if it actually were, it might grant them some ****ing perspective. White men have lorded it over everyone else across the world for centuries
Now suddenly a TV character is a woman when there has been (at least) thirteen Doctors, 12 of whom were men and now one woman and the male viewers are feeling persecuted? Oh come on.
Giving a minority a voice or giving the less-privileged a boost doesn't mean we suddenly hate everyone who isn't in those groups. That's Daily Mail thinking.
Not sure why this would lead someone to turn to crime, but just a perspective that may be worth considering.
No it isn't.
I await the flames
Which is why you posted, isn't it.
Young, white, British males are “left behind “ because they’re poor not because non-whites, LGBT’s, women, whoever else the right want to label is doing them down.
Maybe the majority of young people are "left behind" because of the widening generational gap. Maybe young white males are being encouraged to focus their grievances in every possible direction except for the very conditions that bring hardship to most people.
Because the other interpretation is just cherry picking, populist bollix.
females in such roles has led to young men turning to crime.
I'll try that excuse next time I'm up before the Magistrate. "Sorry your Honour, I am not to blame, they went and changed Dr. Who, ****ed me right up, I swear."
Such a shame - there were some genuine issues in his speech that do need to be examined and addressed, but everyone is (rightly) focusing the monumentally stupid thing(s) that he said instead.
But on his valid points, I'd like to see him challenged on his voting record and his party's policies - I'm willing to bet a considerable amount of money that the guy is a sniveling hipocrite.
I've mentioned this on the Bond thread too, but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
I don't know why anyone would object to the concept of "Toxic Masculinity" - particularly in a speech where he also laments the willingness of men to discuss their mental health.
As I said, guy's a **** witt.
Young, white, British males might well feel that they are now the focus of subliminal persecution
When you are accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.
but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
But in a way we are then pandering to those who benefit from the status quo or have used monumental and misplaced indignation to block some moves towards equality. One could argue that this regendering of roles is also needed due to the dearth of strong roles for females, LGBT, people of colour in film and tv and an under representation of writers from these backgrounds. Tldr one has to change what’s there as not much new is coming through
I'm seriously thinking that the Tory MPs have a "**** Of The Day" Tombola to deflect attention away from what they are really up to.
Well said Spin
Maybe young white males are being encouraged to focus their grievances in every possible direction except for the very conditions that bring hardship to most people.
That is the populist way which is big in this country. Ignore the shit the government have caused by blaming others.
but I do think we need to stop replacing existing male roles with female ones, not because I have any objection to it myself, but because it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted
I'm not sure this is a great argument. Isn't the same thing said about statues of Empire-era white men and their connections with (for instance) slavery or genocide. i.e. don't remove or question their relevance them for fear it gives voice to those who don't wish to know the actuality of history, and are more content with their own version of it, and are more than happy to commit to violence to defend it. If we are just slavishly trying still not to hurt the feelings of those who're perceiving that their privilege being eroded, don't we by default do that at the cost of not supporting those who're in need of a leg up?
When you are accustomed to privilege equality feels like oppression.
I doubt you could accuse a good percentage of white British teenage boys who turn to crime as being accustomed to many privilidges. Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know....
I doubt you could accuse a good percentage of white British teenage boys who turn to crime as being accustomed to many privilidges
I was thinking about Tory MPs and all the others who bleat about being opressed because they are white males.
Maybe young white males are being encouraged to focus their grievances in every possible direction except for the very conditions that bring hardship to most people.
The Tory government must be shitting themselves in case the disadvantaged poor - of any colour, but especially traditionally Tory voting white people - finally realise why their situation has deteriorated.
Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know….
I don't think anyone doesn't accept that there aren't differences in the "levels" of privilege that people experience or perceive, but the observed institutional racism of organisations like the Metropolitan Police for example, does not impact them in the same way that it impacts the same group of young men (poor and living in run-down housing) in the black community.
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It's not saying all white people are 'privileged' ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
This is a privilege which is not available to non-white people in a white-dominated society. It's not saying every white person is racist all the time, or that every non-white person necessarily experiences constant oppression/unfairness.
It's really not that hard to understand if you are interested in actually listening rather than resorting to knee-jerk tabloid responses.
(I'm also not claiming to be an expert and I may not be 100% accurate but that's the gist of it as I understand it)
it just seems to give creedence to this notion that suddenly (white) males are being persecuted because Edward Woodward is now a black woman.
Good.
Because it's bullshit. It's bigotry, really. And we either challenge that or we sweep it under the carpet. Should Obama have been refused Presidency in case white men felt persecuted? Same character, different actor.
Ask yourself this: do you think there'd be the same reaction from the same people - hell, from yourself - if they rebooted the Vicar of Dibley Lenny Henry as the lead character? Reckon the bottom half of the Internet would light up the same way as when Whittaker was announced?
Do you think it should?
Whiteys live in run down council tower blocks and are subject to crippling poverty too, you know….
And again, no-one is disputing this. The difference you're missing is, they're highly unlikely to be in poverty because they are white.
There is not parity here. Until there is, your argument is bogus.
because they are white
Exactly, the 'because' being the critical word. Yes white men can have shit lives, white men commit suicide etc,. but the fact they are white and a man is still giving them an advantage in life which they clearly won't be feeling but won't know anything different.
I have really enjoyed watching Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who - and I really don’t believe the characters gender or indeed race, is a key characteristic.
I also agree with the current view that people do need to see people like ‘them’ to see additional possibilities for themselves.
It’s not the same for reasonably affluent white men - as fundamentally they are seen in most parts of society and culturally, there is still a subconscious view that people of importance, wealth, influence are overwhelmingly white and male.
Where this prevalence of white males becomes comes a little unstuck, is as people have previously said - when poverty enters the equation…
The real thing we need to do is to make sure that representation in the workplace, the media, politics actually reflects society - which as we know, it doesn’t.
Part of the above is - no surprise, obviously making sure in drama, there are great, strong characters that are ethnically diverse, of differing genders, different backgrounds etc. Characters that can become embedded over time to be as well-known as James Bond etc.
Where this is harder is making sure that we actually get some real equality of opportunity and change who people with power, influence, affluence are and indeed look like. There are so many vested interests and the majority of wealth tied up in maintaining that status quo and part of that is limiting who the people that appear in drama and other mass media are disproportionately white males.
None of this is in any way novel, but unless we address the real problem of inequality we won’t have any chance of real diversity of even dramatic characters.
Just in a little way I have been on the wrong end of this
As a bloke in nursing ( which was rare when I started) I was always noticed. Everyone knew my name. I could never hide at the back of the class or be mediocre. Unless I showed myself to be good I was seen as bad at the job. I got judged to a higher standard than my female colleagues and my mistakes were more noticed
Assumptions were also made about my motivations that were untrue
Now none of this was deliberate but it was just a consequence of being what was then a very small minority
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It’s not saying all white people are ‘privileged’ ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
That’s my assessment also.
Whether true or not, the wider world will have ready (uncredited or second-hand) anecdotes of how non-white people are customarily given jobs (quotas) just because they are non-white (when the white person was more qualified or not even considered because they white), free luxury hotel accommodation, houses and more cash than they can spend. Simply for not being white. While (always white) veterans are forced to sleep rough in the streets and white OAPs freeze to death in winter. Why? Because they're not entitled to those brown/black benefits. The people who seem most keen/reliant on these anecdotes will often fiercely and unironically accuse others of having a ‘victim-mentality’
I have really enjoyed watching Jodie Whittaker as Dr Who – and I really don’t believe the characters gender or indeed race, is a key characteristic.
I think she's been let down by some weak scripts.
This is the problem with three-and-out Doctors though. The first series can be all over the place because they don't really know how to write for the 'new' character. Just as they're nailing it, there's a new one.
This is where Big Finish is absolutely killing the BBC. They've spent a lot more time with already-established characters.
Not sure why women can’t be positive role models for boys.
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups. For example, only women can be role models for women.
This Tory MP may be factually wrong but otoh the spirit of what he said may not be completely untrue; there is a trend right now to denigrate masculine virtues in fictional characters, to turn all men into pathetic jokes in the name of 'equality'. What do young men need? The Left believes they need to be made into women. Realistic?!
Seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what white privilege means, whether deliberate or not.
The misunderstanding is because 'white privilege' is nothing but a rhetorical turn built on air.
but the fact they are white and a man is still giving them an advantage in life
That's just metaphysics based on bad readings of statistics.
Let's deal with things we can actually put our hands on.
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups.
No it’s because disadvantaged groups have said that seeing role models who look or are like they are inspires them. But you probably knew that anyway.
they’re highly unlikely to be in poverty because they are white.
Who is poor in the UK simply because of race and race alone?
No it’s because disadvantaged groups have said that seeing role models who look or are like they are inspires them
Activists in the name of these groups have said that. These activists are doing identity politics, it doesn't mean what they say is true.
What do young men need? The Left believes they need to be made into women. Realistic?!
They need a way out of poverty and their communities rebuilt
Blaming 'the left' because Dr who is a woman really is a desperate attempt at deflecting from the real issues.
MPs like this tool & their apologists need to show some courage and just admit that austerity has been a disaster
it doesn’t mean what they say is true.
Doesn't mean it isn't, either.
I'm not sure that I can be bothered to engage with the rest of your nonsense. Do you want to point on the doll as to where the nasty minority touched you?
I agree, but the identity politics of the Left tends to demand that role models only apply within identity groups. For example, only women can be role models for women.
Err... it was a Tory MP linking lack of positive male role models and males committing crimes. It was a Tory MP complaining that women getting roles was depriving males of postive role models. I wouldn't describe him as "of the Left". You might I suppose.
It means that your whiteness is never going to be the thing that holds you back in a white-dominated society. It’s not saying all white people are ‘privileged’ ie wealthy/powerful/advantaged (although there is likely to be a correlation).
Poor white boys do significantly worse at school and are significantly less likely to achieve a university place than the poor of any other ethnicity (other than Roma/Gypsy I believe).
If you have programmes and interventions to aid to other ethnic groups/females in order to improve their outcomes, but not white boys then surely by definition it is their 'whiteness' and 'maleness' that is holding them back.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-57558746
Or maybe they think they don't need to try as hard.
The Tory government must be shitting themselves in case the disadvantaged poor – of any colour, but especially traditionally Tory voting white people – finally realise why their situation has deteriorated.
I don't think they are - from what I read this morning its the fault of the French and our plucky government is doing everything it can.
Or maybe they think they don’t need to try as hard.
Have you considered that you are starting with the belief that racism is everywhere and then interpreting everything based upon that belief?
Has anyone even gone out on to
the streets andd asked the youth of Hulme, Sunderland, Dagenham Toxteth and Wishaw who they think the next Dr Who should be? I reckon their conversation has been about little else, lately.
I saw a clip of this yesterday and thought it must have been a joke. Utterly bizarre.
Have you considered that you are starting with the belief that racism is everywhere and then interpreting everything based upon that belief?
My point is that correlation does not (necessarily) equal causation.
You've read that headline and concluded that white kids are being held back because they're white. That might be true, it might not. You need to dig a bit deeper to find out why (and indeed that's exactly what they're doing) rather than jumping to conclusions that fit with your narrative. That's why said "maybe" in reply to your absolute, I've no idea why it's happing.
I posted a link showing that poor white boys are significantly less likely to go to university (and therefore escape poverty
Did you read the interview with the pupil further down where he said basically what I did, there's a feeling that they don't to bother because they'll just walk into a job anyway?
Unbelievable ignorance and bigotry. For shame.
Oh jog on. Two-week old account I see, who were you banned as last time?