James Bond however, should always be a slightly misogynistic white British alpha male. It’s how it was written, nothing more

It’s much more than just misygonisitic though, the early stuff was blatantly racist – I can’t comment on more recent editions, I hope they’ve improved. There are some classics in there. At the meal in Her Majesty’s Secret Service, what does the black girl get to eat? That’s right, a banana. Remember the black ape woman in Diamonds and the slave décors? Then there was the less than sympathetic Japanese stereotyping in the rocket thing, and steroetypical gypseys in… .

Society is moving on, keep up, even Bond has to.

The ONS stats on child poverty don’t seem to support the idea that white children are disadvantaged. Quite the opposite when compared to Bangladeshi and Pakistani heritage children, for example.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/uksectoraccounts/compendium/economicreview/february2020/childpovertyandeducationoutcomesbyethnicity

Ah, good old identity politics. Serves its purpose doesn’t it? Even this thread is an example of the circle-jerk arguments it creates all the while nothing actually gets done to address the issues that affect the poorest communities and groups in our nation.

The middle classes too busy trying to be right about their chosen talking points as always, irrespective of their political leanings.

^ I think that’s a lazy way out of addressing the varied points raised here.

ie I (for one example) am putting in honest effort trying best I can to openly address my own experience as a white working class kid who ‘hasn’t done very well for himself’ (for a number of reasons, and many could be attached to my class, ethnicity etc as well as my cultural and regional options and norms during development/education/post-education/social mobility. A very small percentage of my school stream went on to University. It was the most unusual thing to expect. None of my family or extended family went to university bar one member.

If you could please answer my questions about that (and/or ask me questions) then maybe you could help us to break the ‘circle’?

my post

It’s not, it is simply an observation of the state of play of public discourse.

It isn’t getting better because the polarisation of society means that ‘debates’ are merely about being right, not about figuring out any meaningful way to address issues. We split problems into their neat little identity groups telling ourselves lies about who has it harder.

As a young Asian lad growing up with other Asian and white kids on a shitty estate, there was no difference, we were scum to anyone who didn’t live there.

I’m not denying the existence of privilege, but it is very much a middle class first world problem that helps people feel right on about helping us poor brown folk.

But I’m sure I’ve got some internalised racism or some such bollocks that a proponent of CRT would tell me. Nothing more I like that being told how I think and feel by my betters.

^ I’ll take that as a ‘no’ then?

We split problems into their neat little identity groups telling ourselves lies about who has it harder.

Agreed. Like I say, I was a ‘traitor’ to that cause. And I still remember the ‘problems’, both real and imagined. Doesn’t that begin to address those problems, by identifying them? So why deny that they are being explored here, even as you again pointedly avoid that discussion in favour of finger-pointing? To prove yourself ‘right’?

It’s the Internet chap, nothing ever changes, this thread will go the way of all the other threads on any contentious subject.

I rather keep doing my day job because that’s about trying to make a difference, not fluff an ego on a forum.

Well said relapsed_mandalorian, you hit all the nails on the head imo – straight to the point and spot-on correct.

Makes a refreshing change from the usual endless confused waffle.

What would you have us do differently, how do we fix this? Or at least, how can we try and help?

I’m not denying the existence of privilege, but it is very much a middle class first world problem that helps people feel right on about helping us poor brown folk.

Maybe among some people but that’s a pretty shitty cynical attitude towards people trying to do the right thing and not be dicks to each other. You’re basically offering nothing of any value in this thread either so I’m not sure why you think you’re above everyone else posting here.

I’m not sure why you think you’re above everyone else posting here.

Nothing more I like than being told how I think and feel by my betters.

Interesting points raised p7.  may I ask what age you are?

My own experience of school in the 70s where I was one of a very small minority of middle class kids from a small middle class enclave surrounded by public housing in glasgow ( Darnly arden candwardric merrilee and the bit I lived in Muirend)  We all went to the local comnprehensive

because this was that short period of true comprehensive education we all went to the local school – Hillpark

But because of this middle class enclave going to university was something that happened in my school and those middle class kids were an “example” to the rest.  I am still in contact with a few of my school friends.  One doctor – from a very working class background, one scientist – middle class, one town planner – working class etc etc  Probably 20% of the school went to university in one form or another and many of those from the working class backgrounds

I very strongly believe the thatcherite “choice” agenda in schools wrecked this because after that all the middle class kids went to shawlands academy ( also a “comp”) instead despite it being actually a much worse school but it had “academy” in its name and the middle class parents could be sure their kids did not have to mix with “oiks”

The result was Hillpark no longer had these middle class kids.  Going to university no longer was a part of the ethos.  Chances for those working class kids declined, it became harder to recruit teachers as teachers like to teach  in an environment where kids go to uni and the result was that the school standards collapsed

this school however was 99% white

So for me one of the key things to reduce  underacheivement is a true comprehensive system – the “choice” agenda in schools actually ended up wrecking social mobility as schools went from true comprehensives to split along class lines.  I am certain that now those bright lads I knew from the schemes would find it much harder to get to university without those “role models” of families with expectations

My pal who became a doctor has told me that.  My parents were the only people he knew that had been to university and apparently they gave him good advice support and helped him see the possibilities.  that just would not happen now

Ediucation is about a heck of a lot more than just exam results.

the other aspect of this is the huge costs now of going to university

My partner came from a very working class family, they had no money and a huge fear of debt.  she went to university and got a law degree – the first of her family to do so because then you got grants and no debt.  she worked all thru uni

she would not have gone to university under the current scheme.  taking on all that debt would have be a complete barrier

So my take from all this is that the thacherite policies of the late 70s and 80s destroyed social mobility via education by removing role models from the schools where working class folk went

What would you have us do differently, how do we fix this? Or at least, how can we try and help?

For me the starting point is to go back to a true comprehensive system in schools and a return to debt free further education

Absolutely what TJ said.

Good post TJ, makes a lot of sense.

Nothing more I like than being told how I think and feel by my betters.

I’ve never claimed to be anyone’s better, and he’s literally just told us what he thinks.

I rather keep doing my day job because that’s about trying to make a difference, not fluff an ego on a forum.

Sounds very much like fluffing an ego to me.

I’ve done many years of IRL youth/community work in all sorts of extremely deprived areas including almost entirely white areas, and almost entirely asian areas, and in PRUs etc – so I don’t really appreciate being lectured about the real world by someone who just pops up to slate middle-class ‘do-gooders’.

I think one of the issues here is there is a significant difference between an individuals experiences and what happens over populations

None of the barriers are insurmountable to an individual but those barriers and expectations making it harder means across populations the effects can be seen

Ernie – I would be interested in your take on this

Haha, maybe it is, does feel good to do something worthwhile for others so you got me there. Go you.

And yeah, I am cynical because I see where I grew up is worse now than my experiences, in spite of all the progressive chat. Why is that? Why do you think I might be tired of seeing the same types of people have the same circular arguments? The biggest waste of privilege is from those who are actually blessed with the ability to influence the levers of change but rather get caught up in a left vs right argument.

Great point TJ, I’d add the lack of support in the family setting is a significant issue, just a smidge of encouragement from parents can make a huge difference in educational attainment and open doors to opportunities.

And yeah, I am cynical because I see where I grew up is worse now than my experiences, in spite of all the progressive chat. Why is that?

Probably mainly to do with widening economic inequality, like most things.

I agree that talking about identity politics (if you want to call it that) isn’t going to change that, but claiming it’s somehow the problem isn’t helpful either IMO.

The biggest waste of privilege is from those who are actually blessed with the ability to influence the levers of change but rather get caught up in a left vs right argument.

Interested to know what you mean by this, that people end up involved in tribal political party conflict rather than getting things done to improve lives etc? I’m sure there’s some truth in that. My mum used to work in public health at a senior level and said politicians were only interested in schemes they could take credit for – didn’t matter how successful they were if they were the previous government’s idea.

But an example of that is Sure Start – widely seen as a good thing with evidence to show it. Scrapped by the Tories now they are starting something which sounds remarkably similar.

Grum, good on you. But I stand by my point. If you take it as being aimed at you, then that says more about your perception of self.

This topic is full of superficial do-gooders who don’t help the situation. Politics is rammed full of them mostly because they care more about likes and RT’s on twitter than they do about helping those stuck in these cycles.

Identity politics isn’t THE problem, but it’s certainly part of the problem, it muddys the water and becomes a distraction to solving the actual issues, mostly because its about affirming your ideology is the correct one irrespective of all else.

Maybe if people started having discussions by framing their points of agreement first, then getting into where they differ more success may be had.

Haha, maybe it is, does feel good to do something worthwhile for others so you got me there. Go you.

Indeed.  IMO that is the main motivator

I do not believe altruism exists.  I believe what people call altruism is actually enlightened self interest.  many of us feel better for doing things to help others.  NOt in the ” look at me how great I am” but from the satisfaction we get from being “nice”.  a big motivator for me for 40 years of nursing

If you take it as being aimed at you, then that says more about your perception of self.

This topic is full of superficial do-gooders who don’t help the situation.

I don’t think anyone thinks they are helping the situation by posting on the internet, it’s just something to do.

It’s not about it being aimed at me individually, it’s that you’re just making lazy generalisations when you don’t know anything about people posting on here. Discussing CRT or whatever doesn’t mean you can’t do anything more practical also.

One of my friends who you’d probably describe as some kind of woke do-gooder also runs a food waste project that supplies loads of not-well-off people with waste food from supermarkets etc.

TJ, I’d say it’s a spectrum isn’t it? Positive outcomes all the way to negative ones.

Nursing much like youth work is on the positive end, often done by people who take a significant personal burden from it.

Then the other end who do it for likes.

Politics is rammed full of them mostly because they care more about likes and RT’s on twitter than they do about helping those stuck in these cycles.

Twitter has some good info on there but is basically a cesspit. I wouldn’t like to base my view of society on Twitter. Social media algorithms are designed to promote conflict and division and drama because that’s what gets the most clicks – I’d agree that a lot of it is purely adversarial point-scoring but I don’t think it’s the topic of discussion that’s the problem.

Nursing much like youth work is on the positive end, often done by people who take a significant personal burden from it.

I started to struggle with youth work after I found out a kid I’d worked with in a PRU who’d been pretty impossible to engage had got in a fight with a neighbour and got stabbed to death, aged 18. I remember him telling me the only thing he’d ever been good at was fighting.

I’m not sure how much good I was really doing TBH, that was the problem. By the time they are teenagers many of these kids are already pretty stuck on a certain path and it’s very hard to change that. I think there was definitely the odd kid who we really helped but it felt like a losing battle most of the time.

Fair points Grum, I’m just a little tired of the same shit and nothing changing, because having the argument has become more important than actually solving the problem.

As for SM, absolutely it’s a goldfish bowl that isn’t reality but sadly it gets more widely reported than reality. The online versions of print media are awash with ‘stories’ from twitter. People then base their opinions from this narrow view and off we go.

Division pays and pays better than unity, which is why I approach things like CRT from a deeply cynical position.

Yeah I see where you’re coming from. Has always been the case to some degree I guess but made massively worse by everyone’s social media/internet addiction now IMO. I have had a lot of health/mental health/difficult home life problems and end up spending way too much time online, which then feeds into more issues.

I suspect many people posting here and elsewhere regularly are in a somewhat similar situation.

I know Joe Rogan isn’t everyone’s cup of tea, but did a recent podcast with the chap behind the Social Experiment in Netflix.

I’d really recommend it, obviously US-centric, but really does get into some great conversation about the negatives, but also the positive potential of SM.

IMO those who do it for “likes” are useless and shallow and do not help

those who do it because its the right thing to do and because they get personal satisfaction from helping others are those who are good at it.

But I’m sure I’ve got some internalised racism

Racism works both ways, having taught in inner city Leicester I experienced that. One class had one white kid, a gypsy. A colleague taught me some Gujerati insults, the kids used them on me with a smile, I smiled back. It was good humoured we got on fine. In another school where another ethnic group was highly represented it was less comfortable, dangerous even. I left for greener grass realising my return to the Midlands from warmer climes was a mistake.

I naively thought that as a teacher I could make a difference. I realised I couldn’t within the existing structure and went off to do something more constructive and rewarding.

My own background? A happy childhood to age 10 in Rubery and good local schools. A move to south Brum and dumped in a dustbin class in time to fail the 11 plus and end up in a secondary mod. That junior schol had one out of four classes that prepared the 11+, the other three didn’t, the grammar school selection was made at 8 not 11, none of the kids from from three classes passed the 11+, disgraceful discrimiation from age 8.

There was hope, one kid from the school was in the same cycling club as me and was the first kid from the school to go to university – I joined the club at 13 thanks to my father’s workshop colleage who heard I liked riding a bike and knocked on our door one night to see if I wanted to join them. I was the second kid to go to university. There was a lot right about that secondary mod: nice building, nice environment, good teachers. But what do you do with 1200 kids programmed by various junior schools to fail from age 8?

So I worked, fought off the bullies who beat shit out of anyone who got good results. French class was a haven, great teacher, none of the thugs did the option, it amounted to private tuition, I learned all about the Common Market. I learned to swim too, I always turned up with my swim kit whatever group I was supposed to be in, the sports teacher found it easier to let some of us swim than deal with the bullying.

All that to say that TJ has it, this:

For me the starting point is to go back to a true comprehensive system in schools and a return to debt free further education

Something my son has enjoyed thanks to my move.

More personal than I normally post. 🙂

but also the positive potential of SM.

Thru my troubles over the last few months social media has been a complete lifeline and has helped me enormously

one thing I did do and have been strict about is anyone toxic in any form gets blocked.  social media is a neutral thing – its how you use it that makes it toxic or supportive

This thread is about an MP, from the party in government, someone with “the ability to influence the levers of change” beyond anyone posting here, seemingly blaming casting decisions rather than getting on and instigating real change for the better.

No tory will ever do anything about this that is meaningful.  It goes against their ethos

I don’t think many of either party will, it all seems to be quite superficial. Unless it involves them consolidating their grip on power.

I think within the social democratic parties ( labour, SNP maybe lib dems) there are people who understand the issues and really want to help

Surestart centres etc did make a differnce

And there’s the rub, politicians want short term power, society needs a long term vision and investment.

I’m just a little tired of the same shit and nothing changing,

I expect most people posting on this thread feel the same.
I will admit I am not doing anything to actively change that other than throwing away a vote in a safe tory seat every few years. What are you doing about it and what success have you had?

I see where I grew up is worse now than my experiences, in spite of all the progressive chat. Why is that?

Why don’t you tell us? Why is it?

And at the risk of repeating myself: what would you have us do differently?

Because all I’m getting from you here is someone (understandably) cynical complaining about everything. That helps no-one any more than all the other things you’re saying doesn’t help.

There does seem to be something of an obsession with getting school-leavers into university, which IIRC, was started, or at least emphasised by Blair. I don’t know what the figures are, but I really wonder just how many who go to university actually finish, or if they do, actually end up in a job where their university education actually gave them any benefits. A friend of mine went to uni to study archeology, mainly because a mutual friend was an archaeologist, working for Wessex Archeology. She ended up in the service industry, although as a manager, because she had a lot of part-time experience running bars and restaurants when the boss was away.

From my own experience, I learned much more actually on the job, than I think I would have done at Uni, and having actually worked with some people who’d gone to Uni, they were remarkably ignorant of many basic aspects of the print industry – good at whizzy designs, which would have cost a fortune to actually implement, but no idea at all about using grids to lay out pages or artwork, for example.
I’ve long felt that an apprenticeship is a far better process, or else full on the job training with time spent at college, which is what happens where I work; lads in the workshops go off for periods of time for specific training in bodywork repair, paint prep and spraying, etc, so they’re getting paid both for work and training, with no student loans to ever worry about.

There does seem to be something of an obsession with getting school-leavers into university, which IIRC, was started, or at least emphasised by Blair.

“Education, education, education”, that, I believe, was Tony Blair’s slogan. I am no fan of Blair but emphasis on education seems a positive attitude to me.

The UK is one of the wealthiest nations on earth, I see no reason why university education shouldn’t be offered to every person to has the ability to complete a university course.

I’m not much bothered about people studying subjects which ultimately have nothing to do with their final profession. I didn’t receive university education but I am perfectly willing to accept that it provides an important exercise in applied self-discipline and achieving goals. I can understand the appeal it might have to employers. It also provides an important passage in the life and development of many young people.

Ernie – I am interested in your perspective on the big post I put up about comprehensive education and role models

thoughts?