Well as you would expect TJ I of course fully support comprehensive education. I’m not so sure about your role model comment though. I didn’t see the kids in the grammar stream in my comprehensive school as role models. Even if I had I was not allowed to do GSEs only CSEs so university was never going to be an option for me.

My 9 years older brother did go to university though, the only person in my immediate family to do so. But he went to a grammar school, proper posh grammar school with a cadet force, so going to university was always expected.

Just as well really because unlike his younger brother he is totally cack-handed, can’t swing a hammer and wouldn’t last 5 minutes on a building site 🙂

I didn’t see the kids in the grammar stream in my comprehensive school as role models.

thats not a comprehensive!  thats  secondary modern and a grammer on the same site

Because we were fully comprehensive we were properly mixed – academic and non academic kids mixed for everything until 13 then steamed for maths and english until 14 then into three broad streams of 4 classes each but still mixed for PE and so on

It just meant we all rubbed shoulders

good for me as a sheltered middle class kid to mix with kids from other backgrounds ( although as an english kid with a lisp in a scottish school it was tough at times) and my pal who became a doctor has told me my parents helped him by example

No one at that school was forbidden to do any exams – opportunity was there for all and you could be in the acedemic stream for math  but not english.

anyway – just interested in your perspective

There does seem to be something of an obsession with getting school-leavers into university, which IIRC

It’s an odd one. People I know went, then did a college course or 3 to get the skills they really needed. Other western countries are actively trying to persuade kids to go the college route. Partly trades due to shortages, but also because they are a more valuable resource for many and more accessible..

They can’t compete with the cachet of going to a University though. Even a bad one.
Especially odd when you consider the headstart in earnings takes years to catch up, sometimes grads never get there. Less so now, I imagine.

Because we were fully comprehensive we were properly mixed – academic and non academic kids mixed for everything until 13 then steamed for maths and english until 14 then into three broad streams of 4 classes each but still mixed for PE and so on

Very different to mine. Right from the start 6 classes per year with two classes being grammar. The grammar classes had to do GSE in every subject and the other 4 could only do CSE. Those 4 were divided in two different ability.

So each year had two top classes, two middle classes, and two bottom classes….A alpha, B beta, and C gamma, were the names of each one. In theory pupils could move from one stream to another in reality it very rarely happened.

I’m quite happy with the education I received from ILEA. Along with my peers I couldn’t have been particularly easy to educate, and yet somehow they managed to drum some stuff into me, when I wasn’t gazing out of the classroom window.

Thats my point – we all had to rub shoulders and even at 16 we still had some stuff where we were completely mixed- so an oik like you ( 🙂 ) would have had a pale pink wishy washy swot like me sitting next to you in some classes so it normalises being swotty ( or to be more serious having ambitions to get educated)  discussions about going on to further education happened when everyone was around
We had really high rates of staying on after 16 as well – around half the school

Its probably only a marginal effect but it all adds up

Yeah I see what you mean. We were fully segregated from the start, we would only meet during break time. I had friends in the grammar stream from primary school. Tbh my older brother was my role model so it wasn’t a lack of role model that was an issue for me. He went on to do microbiology at university. As a consequence I knew about the immune system and antibodies etc when I was still in primary school, and was fairly knowledgeable about biology, but I was still only allowed to do CSE as I wasn’t in the grammar stream.

This is a new experience for me I find myself half in agreement with tj 🙂

I 100% agree with a return to debt free education, not just for the economy and social mobility, I truly believe education makes us all better people in general.

I am less convinced with the comprehensive system, since we had quite a few prime ministers from grammar schools, now we only get privately educated PM’s

I failed my 11+ too and had a poor experience at a secondary modern. However I was lucky and I did really well after that and ended up being the 1st person in my family to go to university and I got a 1st in Engineering. I am grateful for the education I received and sad that people really can’t even think about education for personal development anymore as it will put them into so much debt.

For me education is the key to a lot our problems.

I am less convinced with the comprehensive system, since we had quite a few prime ministers from grammar schools, now we only get privately educated PM’s

When TJ says “true comprehensive education”… I’ll take a punt on him meaning that all kids should go though the same system… no opt outs for the ruling class.

Because we were fully comprehensive we were properly mixed – academic and non academic kids mixed for everything until 13 then steamed for maths and english until 14 then into three broad streams of 4 classes each but still mixed for PE and so on

It just meant we all rubbed shoulders

I did this,didn’t release that was actually what a comprehensive was about until you mentioned it 🙂