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Red Bull Legal Action

Helmut now talking about getting lawyers involved! What a dick. He wants to change the rules because his pet project didn’t win. Masi has stated that the stewards only look at the incident itself and not the consequences of it. In which case Perez’s 2x 5 seconds penalties in Austria should have set a precendent for Hamilton surely? The hypocrisy is strong with this one (from Marko, no the stewards).

God they’re such a dislikable bunch of ****

If Max had taken a different line he’d have finished first or second. I believe that Max knew he had to be ahead of Lewis at the end of the first lap to disrupt the Mercedes strategy and that was all he had on his mind.

If that was his mindset, then he won’t be a world champion with that attitude. He proved less than 24 hours earlier that the Red Bull easily had the Merc covered for pace and he had far, far more to lose than gain by fighting that hard. Let Lewis take the corner and the position and get him back later. But no, he let his ego get in the way. There is zero shame in playing the long game and not playing every corner like it needs to fought over tooth and nail like it’s your last. Because as he’s now proved thanks to his attitude, it was his last corner.

Helmut – clue is in the name there

What a complete Skid-Marko. But then we knew that. Tit.

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned that when Russell understeered into Carlos Sainz on Saturday, he was given a much more severe penalty, a 3 place grid drop.

I think it was because the stewards decided that Russell was entirely at fault, whereas they decided that Verstappen had an amount of culpability in the Hamiltion/Verstappen incident.

At that speed on that corner if Lewis hit the apex perfectly I think a crash was still gonna happen, just the other way round, Max was heading to hug that kerb regardless, a car and a half was about to become a tyre and a half in about a second so where exactly could Lewis go.

I’m surprised that nobody has mentioned that when Russell understeered into Carlos Sainz on Saturday, he was given a much more severe penalty, a 3 place grid drop.

Russell got a grid penalty because the sprint race was effectively an extended qualifying session.

Grid place penalty are normally dished out as 3, 5 or 10 place penalties so Russell’s penalty was not particularly severe

It all boils down to three things:

Max thinks he’s born to win the World Championship so should get Special treatment.
Horner thinks he’s special thanks to those 4 Constructor’s Championships so should be treated as Special, similar to Ferrari have been historically.
Helmut thinks he’s created a Special team with a Special manager and a Special driver so should be sweeping up every trophy.

What the three of them fail to realise is that the only thing Special about them is the way they think they’re Special. With all these outbursts and threats of Legal action I would laugh my arse off if the FIA charged them with bringing the sport into disrepute!

Going forward for Verstappen, every movement of the steering wheel he makes is going to come under scrutiny, get used to ‘Max Cam’, the commemtators are going to have a field day.

Max is also going to find it much more difficult coming out into traffic after pit stops as well, the mid field are going to feel a lot less obliged to let him pass when he’s weaving all over the place. In the past they would have been more cautious, as getting involved in an incident with one of the big guns would have been seen as bad form. Not any more, now all the drivers will be elbows out with Max around.

Marco and Horner have just heaped a ton of unnecessary pressure on their boy, let’s see if he can take it.

Max has been there before with his weaving under braking, I don’t think having his steering inputs scrutinised again will bother him in the slightest.

Max thinks he’s born to win the World Championship so should get Special treatment.

I don’t think he does, of All the folk involved from RB in this nonsense, he’s been the least vocal.

From James Allison to BBC Sport…

But Allison said the FIA’s own guidelines for race stewards gave Hamilton the right to make the attempt and not give way to Verstappen.

In a video released by Mercedes reviewing the British Grand Prix weekend, he added: “If you are overtaking on the inside of the corner, then the guidance requires that you are substantially alongside as you arrive at the corner. It is not required that you are ahead.

“Lewis was definitely substantially alongside. He had his front axle well beyond the midpoint of Verstappen’s car.

“And it requires that you must be able to make the corner. By ‘make the corner’, it means go round the corner and not leave the track or lose control of the car.

“If you can go round the corner, if you are substantially alongside the other car, then the corner is yours.

“What that means is not that you have to emerge in the lead; it means that you do not have to cede your position, you do not have to back off and the other car has a duty to avoid hitting you.

“So, if you follow the notes that are provided to the FIA stewards and you look frame by frame at what happened with Lewis, he was substantially alongside, he absolutely would have made the corner and indeed did make the corner and therefore there was no need for him to cede any ground.”

Allison added the speed of Copse corner, which is taken at 190mph in an F1 car, “makes no difference”. “Lewis made two further overtakes at Copse using exactly the same guidance and there wasn’t a contact in either of those cases,” he said.

In their ruling, the stewards mentioned Hamilton “did not reach the apex of the corner, with room available to the inside” and “did not avoid contact”.

But Allison said: “I can understand people, who maybe don’t understand there is no obligation on you to hit the apex of the corner, that you don’t have to have your whole car in front of the other car.

“I can understand that, if you are seeing it from that perspective, you might think that the car coming from behind has some sort of obligation to make sure that no crashes take place. But if you look at the stewarding document then I think that Lewis did nothing wrong.”

Obviously he’s not impartial, but he’s a lot more articulate in his assessment than Horner has been.

Quite right: Mercedes went to Masi with the FIA’s own documentation to support their case. Horner, meanwhile, claimed to Masi that Hamilton “was never anywhere near alongside” (which is demonstrably untrue) and Wheatley didn’t seem to manage anything more substantial than “I’m very angry about it” (boo hoo, being angry doesn’t change the rules).

I have to confess that in the immediate aftermath I expected/hoped Hamilton to be a bit more subdued after the race in the circumstances, but the more this rumbles on and the more camera angles come to light and so on, the more he looks entirely justified and rational while Red Bull just seem to be making fools of themselves.

Interestingly, further down the BBC article:

Opinion from current and former drivers on the incident has been split.

Two-time champion Fernando Alonso and Leclerc both said it was a ‘racing incident’ in which neither driver was more to blame than the other.

But ex-Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and David Coulthard both said in their roles as Channel 4 pundits that Hamilton was at fault.

I can’t guarantee that I didn’t make any small mistakes when reproducing that text, sorry if I did.

😀 you might have subconsciously made it more accurate, but that’s all.

Just checking that you meant…

Opinion from current and former drivers on the incident has been split.

Two-time champion Fernando Alonso and Leclerc both said it was a ‘racing incident’ in which neither driver was more to blame than the other.

But ex-Red Bull drivers Mark Webber and David Coulthard, who are both currently sponsored by and working for Red Bull, said in their roles as Channel 4 pundits that Hamilton was at fault.

https://destination.redbull.com/en/racing-experience-in-monaco-motorsport-david-coulthard/

https://www.redbull.com/gb-en/athlete/mark-webber

Listening to the Chequered Flag podcast yesterday, and they all agreed that it was a racing incident. They also said that this is the moment when the championship will get serious, and the mud slinging will be almost as entertaining as the on track action.IMHO Mercedes are more measured in that department than Red Bull.

some-one point Helmut in the direction of this…

Mind you, it’s not hard to find Max expecting folk to get out of his way…

Tapping on an imaginary thumbs up symbol, good find.

I like F1 and have watched it for a lot of years but good lord this storm in a teacup crap is ridiculous.

Two drivers went for the same corner, there was a crash.

It’s part of racing, it should be part of racing.
Move on.

Lol, even Yamamoto has said it’s a racing incident now

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/89743/honda-boss-on-verstappen-crash-i-think-it-was-a-racing-incident.html

Pushing for penalties for your opponent is part of the game, but the legal threats and Horner doing the “look how they massacred my boy” bit just makes them look like complete chunts

RedBull/CH could have put some pressure on Lewis by calling the move ‘clumsy’ or even ‘slightly desperate’ (not that Lewis is troubled much by pressure) but instead they’ve gone all high ground and it’s totally backfired on them.

As said, it’s a shame Spa isn’t the next round…

Nice find. I’d been racking my brains for the most similar move by Max—knew there must be one but hadn’t recalled that one. It’s a dead ringer, other than that in Max’s example (hey Christian) he actually was “never anywhere near alongside” and therefore the corner was never his (though I’m not sure when the guidance came in).

Red Bullshit comments on Max vs Lance:

“Is this guy blind? What the **** is wrong with him?” said a seething Verstappen on team radio after the contact.

Christian Horner [was] adamant that Verstappen shouldn’t receive a penalty as he was on the inside … “if that were a race, Max would have been deemed to be up the inside so therefore the car on the outside should have given way.”

Oh dear, Christian. What a complete knob.

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/31381/12112466/max-verstappen-lance-stroll-avoid-penalty-after-portimao-p2-crash

Cry-baby spice.

What are the odds that David Coulthard and Mark Webber have recieved an email from Channel 4 reminding them that for the duration of the race weekend they are employed by them and not Red Bull?

And what are the odds that the C4 editing team are being paid overtime to pit together a compilation of clips like the one above, ready for broadcast When the teams rock up in Hungary?

IIRC isn’t it Coulthards production company ?

Can we just start a new thread for people to whinge about Red Bull’s whinging?

If anyone should know its our very own WCA

I like F1 and have watched it for a lot of years but good lord this storm in a teacup crap is ridiculous.

Is it because it was the only interesting thing to happen in the race? (I picked my guitar up after about 30 minutes and wasn’t paying a huge amount of attention for the next 30, when it looked like nothing much had changed. I may have missed interesting bits….)

IIRC isn’t it Coulthards production company ?

Yup. He’s down as a founder and director. Along with a certain Jake Humphrey.

mashr,

Feel free to start a new thread of your own for people who want to whinge about people who want to comment on Red Bull’s whinging on an F1 thread. No ones stopping you.

Or you could start a thread about the absence of any correlation between sport, politics and commerce.

The thing about sport is that it’s not about sport.

ffs, Inkster move on, you’re now making things up unless you want to tell me where I said there was no link. Unless you’d rather single out Hamilton as the only driver not allowed to be publicly critised? Singling people out for special treatment always goes well

“if that were a race, Max would have been deemed to be up the inside so therefore the car on the outside should have given way.”

…..but, but, chucking a wheel up the inside is tantamount to attempted murder! Or you might send another driver to hospital for a precautionary check up…..

Ha, ha, bang to rights Horner!!😂😂

Don’t forget to NOT watch any Red Bull Hardline coverage to punish the filthy sugar and bull semen purveyors even more.

Had Hamilton done a Bottas post penalty and not made up the places nobody would be talking about it now.

People like to make out that Verstappen is some kind of saint. Well here's a Verstappen aggression masterclass thread #F1

— Haydn #44 (@Haydn792) July 21, 2021

Think that’s part of the issue. If you get deemed 51% at fault, then the highest place you should be able to finish is no higher than the finishing position of the one that is less at fault (even after serving that penalty and making a comeback)
At least that’s the way I decipher Horner’s amateur rants.
Would be interesting to see what the final outcome of other races would be if penalties dished out had that constraint.

Mashr,

I think you posted in response to one of my posts that race had nothing to do with Horners comments. I merely pointed out that intentions have nothing to do with it, outcomes do.

I’m not suggesting that Hamilton be immune from criticism though I understand that it’s a pastime for many.

It’s ironic that you ask that I move on because I think I already have by discussing the outcomes of red Bull’s actions (both actual and forthcoming) rather than getting distracted by the minutiae of a racing incident whose verdict is unlikely to be changed

By obsessing about what happened on the track there is a danger we ignore the elephant in the room. What many thinking is how this relates to ‘# we race as one’ and the broader BLM issues that Lewis Hamilton has raised.

We all know the right wing has it’s tails between it’s legs after disgracing themselves over the Euro’s and they were gagging to get back to situation normal, with Raheem Sterling off limits they are looking to re-annoint Lewis as the most hated one. Watching Lewis parade the flag around the circuit boiled their piss till steam started coming out of their ears.

In a couple of weeks the technicalities of the incident will be forgotten about and we’ll all be talking about how the fans at the Dutch and Italian races (and many other European circuits) greet Lewis Hamilton as he steps up to the podium. And many will be asking if Red Bull aren’t at least a little bit responsible for cultivating those particular cauldrons of hate.

I’m sure 100% of Hamilton fans are Hamilton fans but I do wonder what percentage of Verstappen fans aren’t really his fans but Hamilton Haters at heart. It’s just a thought….

Mashr,

I think you posted in response to one of my posts that race had nothing to do with Horners comments. I merely pointed out that intentions have nothing to do with it, outcomes do.

No, I posted that your couldn’t compare Horner to Patel as per the narrative that the particular poster was trying to start, you then took things in your own direction and wont let it go.