EU Referendum – are you in or out?

At last we may get a debate on Britain’s relationship with Europe (Leader, 11 January). What did the EEC/EU ever do for us? Not much, apart from: providing 57% of our trade; structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline; clean beaches and rivers; cleaner air; lead free petrol; restrictions on landfill dumping; a recycling culture; cheaper mobile charges; cheaper air travel; improved consumer protection and food labelling; a ban on growth hormones and other harmful food additives; better product safety; single market competition bringing quality improvements and better industrial performance; break up of monopolies; Europe-wide patent and copyright protection; no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market; price transparency and removal of commission on currency exchanges across the eurozone; freedom to travel, live and work across Europe; funded opportunities for young people to undertake study or work placements abroad; access to European health services; labour protection and enhanced social welfare; smoke-free workplaces; equal pay legislation; holiday entitlement; the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime; strongest wildlife protection in the world; improved animal welfare in food production; EU-funded research and industrial collaboration; EU

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jan/11/whats-eu-ever-done-us

Just some of what the EU has done for the UK. Not that anyone cares about equal pay, heatlh, consumer protection and human rights ( yes England not so big on that) plus who and what is going to want to trade with England?

As one Tory Outie said, “the problem with the EU is it stops us doing a lot of things we want to do”.

Which is Tory-speak for “we want to be able to screw everyone else a lot more than we already do”.

Don’t forget the Fudora:

So in because we don’t trust our own government. Sorry state of affairs. Lots of things I hate about the EU but the out campaign is scaring me into voting ‘in’.

The whole campaign is an opportunity for mass Tory right onanism. Sadly we’re going to be subjected to months of this by the hysterical media. They’re basically holding the naughty magazine whilst they do it in public.

The whole campaign is an opportunity for mass Tory right onanism. Sadly we’re going to be subjected to months of this by the hysterical media. They’re basically holding the naughty magazine whilst they do it in public.

Corbyn and McDonnell are closet leavers as well as all the Bennites in
Momentum

It’s not just the right of UK politics that wants to leave

Don’t forget the Fudora:

TYpo or just avoiding the swear filter 😉

Geography and history determine that Britain is part of Europe, and Labour wants to see Europe safe and prosperous. But the European Economic Community, which does not even include the whole of Western Europe, was never devised to suit us, and our experience as a member of it has made it more difficult for us to deal with our economic and industrial problems. It has sometimes weakened our ability to achieve the objectives of Labour’s international policy.

The next Labour government, committed to radical, socialist policies for reviving the British economy, is bound to find continued membership a most serious obstacle to the fulfilment of those policies. In particular the rules of the Treaty of Rome are bound to conflict with our strategy for economic growth and full employment, our proposals on industrial policy and for increasing trade, and our need to restore exchange controls and to regulate direct overseas investment. Moreover, by preventing us from buying food from the best sources of world supply, they would run counter to our plans to control prices and inflation.

For all these reasons, British withdrawal from the Community is the right policy for Britain – to be completed well within the lifetime of the parliament. That is our commitment. But we are also committed to bring about withdrawal in an amicable and orderly way, so that we do not prejudice employment or the prospect of increased political and economic co-operation with the whole of Europe.

We emphasise that our decision to bring about withdrawal in no sense represents any weakening of our commitment to internationalism and international co operation. We are not ‘withdrawing from Europe’. We are seeking to extricate ourselves from the Treaty of Rome and other Community treaties which place political burdens on Britain. Indeed, we believe our withdrawal will allow us to pursue a more dynamic and positive international policy – one which recognises the true political and geographical spread of international problems and interests. We will also seek agreement with other European governments – both in the EEC and outside – on a common strategy for economic expansion.

Labour Party 1983 Manifesto

The issues surrounding the treaty are actually very serious, in that it enormously extends the powers of the European Commission and, by the appointment of the president and foreign affairs spokespeople, one can see the development of executive power – with some accountability to the commission, very limited accountability to the Council of Ministers or the European Parliament and almost none to national parliaments. What is also explicit in both the Maastricht Treaty and the Lisbon Treaty is the imposition of a market economy on Europe, a control on borrowing made by any member states’ government and serious control on the political choices open to any one member state. Thus, the British government had to explain to the European Union why it proposed to take Northern Rock into public ownership, for how long it intended that to be the case and give assurances about the bank’s future. EU law makes it almost impossible for a government to take any industry into public ownership of its own free will because it would be accused of giving it illegal state subsidies.

There is a strong socialist argument against the Lisbon Treaty and the economic consequences that flow from it.

Corbyn, 2007

sbob – Member

teamhurtmore – Member
Like you I have had the opportunity to live and work in France, my son has studied there for a year

My missus has had the opportunity to live and work outside the EU, and has studied outside the EU.
It really isn’t that difficult. [/quote]

Really? It cost me about 2k to get out to Oz and I needed a local to do that, 4 years later and another detailed application and fee and I can apply for citizenship. Without the local I would have needed to go through a points based application and would probably have struggled on that one. After that it’s down to sponsorship with massive tie ins and stability issues like get laid off, head straight to the airport.
I hear the US is even more fun to get into 🙂

I’d not describe it as easy. Certainly moving and studying in the EU is a walk in the park in comparison.

molgrips – Member

It bloody well is.

Have you worked abroad?
Because my partner’s experiences seem to differ from yours substantially.

You had an opportunity handed on a plate.

And with you making things up like that, the conversation is finished.
Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

mikewsmith – Member

Really?

Yes, although she wasn’t in Australia; Asia and the Americas.
I do have friends that have moved to Australia with work though, again, it wasn’t a problem.

I do have friends that have moved to Australia with work though, again, it wasn’t a problem.

So they just got offered a job, hopped on a plane and started work the next day? Because that is how it is in the EU, you can’t get a job here in Oz if you don’t have the right visa. Even though I have Permanent Residence I can’t work for any branch of the Federal Government without explicit permission and it’s only granted in a tiny number of posts where there is a specific need for a non-citizen.

By the Americas do you mean the US or somewhere else, again know a couple of Germans who had to go through the green card lottery a few times to get into the US even with firm job offers. I know of people who went over as sponsored and their partners can’t work at all. So quite a lot harder and more restrictive than current EU requirements.

mikewsmith

If you have the skills you can get a 457 visa to oz (well you used to be able without too much issue some years back). I would agree that the fact they can turn round and kick you out at a moments notice add a certain stress.

Having worked in EU, OZ and the USA the Fact you can just turn up in any of the EU countries and start with minimum hassle and a lot more security as they won’t deport you if you are not in work is fantastic.
The opportunities we have to work across Europe or for UK companies to pull the best talent from such a huge pool for me are worth the in vote alone.
If you add in the working time directive, the minimum vacation requirements, improved consumer protection and everything mrsfry has listed I can’t see why you would vote to leave.

If you have the skills you can get a 457 visa to oz (well you used to be able without too much issue some years back). I would agree that the fact they can turn round and kick you out at a moments notice add a certain stress.

The 457 is one route, if you match the skills shortage list and other requirements, find someone to sponsor you etc. still going to cost you 6-700 quid with medicals etc. and only valid for 4 years.

We have a south African colleague who had to uproot and run off to NZ as his visa ran out, he is exploring options but it could be over 3 months before he can come back over and work here.

mikewsmith – Member

So they just got offered a job, hopped on a plane and started work the next day?

They had a job, got asked to go and work in Australia, accepted and moved. Of course that didn’t happen the next day, when was the last time you knew of someone being relocated in the EU within 24hrs? There’s no need to be ridiculous.

Yep.. Those are the kicks of working away from home (or in your potential new home) like that.. I’ve seen it happen to a few people and it is never fun to see and could be happening to me in April!
It’s very different for the people in the UK from the rest of Europe. I don’t think that this situation would have ever entered their minds. Not sure how you would cope with the uncertainty and the powerless aspect as an individual or a business.

Sbob,

Not quite 24 hrs but my company expects you to be able to relocate within the EU in 2 weeks… Actually once visa is issued the same globally except the USA and that is only due to the convoluted logistics process to ship your stuff.

Not at all sbob you just seem to have glossed over the need for a Visa, the application and processing times, the chance of failure and the restrictions placed on you by that visa. Even having/been offered a job gives you no rights to a Visa, there have been a number of moves to restrict the use of these work visa’s recently to improve the chances for Australians. It’s a very long way from the EU way of working.
Perhaps more realistically you could accept a job in Paris, sign a contract hand in your notice and be working there next month. Good luck getting out to Oz on anything other than a working holiday visa that quickly, one of the statements all over the Immigration Dept website is do not make any big decisions or financial commitments until it’s been awarded – as it’s not certain for anybody.

and spying this classic 😉

Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

The skills lists change all the time, one day it’s hairdressers willing to work in country areas, the next it’s plumbers or naval architects.

when was the last time you knew of someone being relocated in the EU within 24hrs? There’s no need to be ridiculous.

I think you’re missing the point here somewhat.

Maybe your experiences differ because you lack the skills that would make you desirable to businesses in other countries?

Maybe so, but even people without skills can enjoy and benefit from a spell abroad away from this place?

@mike you should have to apply for a visa to live and work in Australia, restrictions on working for the government make sense. Same applies in the US. It should take weeks to apply for a visa, perhaps months as proper checks need to be made. I applied through my employer for work visas for the US and Singapore, really not that difficult and changing jobs and countries takes months anyway. In a typical mkve therevis a transition and if you are needed urgently you can fo on a “business trip” first while your visa is provessed. The notion that the ability to work abroad including in the EU will dissapear is ridicukous, we will have a woek/visa exchange programme with the EU. The key thing is it will be controlled

@ninfan, thanks for posting. Corbyn in the run-up to the leadership campaign re-iterated his euro-sceptic stance particularly as membership effectively prevents nationalisation as per your quote

Boris has a long piece in the Telegragph, many #Jambyfacts although he’s not sharing the obsession of using that hashtag 8)

Telegragph Link

Not sure what your agreeing with… The point being that’s what working in the EU will become like, harder to work over there and harder to get good skilled people in over here. Visa’s and immigration always end up being political objects with numbers being changed to suit the political situation regardless of the economic situation. Is closing up the UK to foreign workers a good thing? Making it harder for UK workers to gain experience overseas?

@mike a highly intelligent and motivated Chinese or Indian person will not find filling in a visa form and waiting a while a challenge or an obstacle to a better future. I don’t see the US being held back by having controlled immigration. My family where £10 poms in the 1960’s, we went to Australia House for the interviews and filled in the forms.

They’ve relaxd the rules but in Singapore you had to leave the country in 2 weeks if you lost your job. That was tough but those where the rules, kniwn upfront, and they where still oversubscribed with applications.

ctk – Member
So in because we don’t trust our own government. Sorry state of affairs.

It seems this is pretty much the IN campaign’s trump card.
And to be fair … it’s a good un!

My only concern though, is that in 20years time the EU follow suit. And what hope would we have of voting them out then?
At least with UK political parties – it will only be UK votes that get them in.

If the IN vote wins. The EU will be encouraged to cherry-pick the UK even more. And I fear it will be our children and grandchildren who will suffer as a result.

I don’t see the US being held back by having controlled immigration.

The US doesn’t have controlled immigration, it has a massive pool of undocumented people paying no taxes etc. doing a huge amount of work at low pay that keeps certain states going and failing – see what’s happening with taxes in California and how the big cash generators are moving up to places like Utah.

Flipping round the immigration question, if you were in the EU and looking for a place to expand to would you go for the one that had a free movement of people or the one that doesn’t?

Jamba – have you considered what being out will do to what I understand to be your personal situation with regard to living in France and owning property there?

My only concern though, is that in 20years time the EU follow suit. And what hope would we have of voting them out then?
At least with UK political parties – it will only be UK votes that get them in.

If the IN vote wins. The EU will be encouraged to cherry-pick the UK even more. And I fear it will be our children and grandchildren who will suffer as a result.

Replace the EU with the UK, and the UK With Scotland, and you have the argument for Scottish independence right there.

There’s still this fallacy that the UK is more democratic. How do we vote out members of the House of Lords? Is it democratic that the Tories have total control of government with only 24% of the vote?

Personally not a lot as my wife is French, I got married there (here as posting from Paris) so I can even have a passport if I wish. That being said none of that makes any difference as the French will do all they can to keep all the Brits who pay massive amounts into the local economy including for example buying property (at 8% stamp duty) in the North/Normandy/Brittany where most French don’t want to live/visit (see great movie Bienvenue chez le chi’tis) and spending money when they visit. They recently introduced extra taxes on foreigners (inc EU citizens) owning holiday property. My understanding is you get access to health service here (Carte Vitale) if you pay property taxes, doesn’t matter where you come from EU or outside. Like Spain the French benefit massively from Brits with second homes / retiring there. They will not jeopardise that.

The Sunday Politics show was very interesting as they takked about how Switzerland and Norway pay into the EU budget despite not being members, the interesting repost was that they contribute to the specific programmes they wish to like the student exchange Erasmus scheme (see @tmh and my own daughters who studied in Copenhagen and Barcelona). I imagine they don’t pay towards the duplicate EU buildings in Brussels and Strassbourg nor Junker’s private jet.

Is it democratic that the Tories have total control of government with only 24% of the vote?

37% of votes cast… could make it more democratic if you made voting compulsory.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election/2015/results

@ben you have the most (or one of) parliaments in the world with the very significant benefit of support from the UK. The SNP really needs to get on with actually managing Scotland with the significant powers it has and with what I imagine will be an increased majority after the May elections.

Like Spain the French benefit massively from Brits with second homes / retiring there. They will not jeopardise that.

you are François Hollande and I claim my 5 Euros!!
Have they made a position? Is it declared? If not it’s just another don’t worry dear it will all be fine and just like it was before if not better 🙂

So you will be aware that they floated taxing foreigners owning property even higher but were reminded that it is against EU law.

Too funny that you are relaxed about the impact of Brexit because you can get an EU passport.

@ben you have the most (or one of) parliaments in the world with the very significant benefit of support from the UK.

And replace the UK with the EU in that sentence, and you have the argument for staying in the EU.

The funny thing about British nationalism is that it doesn’t think it exists.

I imagine

there is a huge gulf between what you can imagine and what can be factually supported as shown in yet another post where you tell us that some EU country wil bend over backwards to keep us

Have they made a position?

Of course not is a #jambyfact

The Mash nails it yet again

😆

I think you’re missing the point here somewhat.

Seven hours ago I’m surprised I managed to operate my front door, let alone my keyboard. 😆

mikewsmith: not sure it makes any difference, but out of interest the friends I have in Australia are either engineers (civil & mechanical) or health professionals (nurses & midwives).

The Mash nails it yet again

What is frightening is that it is so accurate – that the future of the country may well be decided by the sheeple voting for a TV personality.

Boris really does talk some BS in the Torygraph article – the scaremongering over EU legislation. About 7% of our laws are based on EU law much lower than many other countries.

The other red herring is “giving up” sovereignty. No shit, we do that the whole time without blinking NATO, GATT, WTO etc. Replace “giving up” with “pooling” and you have a much more sensible debate.

He quotes the Parliamentary Library – perhaps he should read their section on European and UK law.

yep who all had to get Visa’s etc. when we don’t need spare engineers or health people they won’t have a 457 visa. The process works if you have an attractive place to move to and a shortage of skills.
Anyway at least your typing was better than your logic 😉

Edited as per thm request.

In return – can we please have some intellectual honesty in the discussion, and not wrapping up fibs and opinions as facts?

Can we no leave out the nasty stuff – its very boring all this Jamba-baiting.

At the very least focus on points not posters.