EU Referendum – are you in or out?

There was an hilarious interview on Radio four last week – I think it was a town somewhere in the North of England. One of those things where they get quite literally a “man on the street” to say how he would resolve things.

It was all quite simple. Scotland want their independence (er, not all of them) and voted to remain (again, more, but not all of them), so all the remainers should move to Scotland, give them their independence and the rest of us can leave Europe No Deal. Job done !

The interviewer didn’t press him on where these 16 million odd people were going to live, or that this would be one of the biggest movements of people since WW2 or the partition of India, but who needs to let things like practicality and facts get in the way. Perhaps if somebody figured out how to combine London and Scotland in some kind of Berlin Airlift type arrangement it could just work.

We’re crashing out without a deal next Friday. No question

That’s not a fact yet.

Don’t forget we were crashing out last week too.

Maybe if it had stuck to trade then there wouldn’t have been this problem.

I not certain you can separate politics and trade. Let anyone sell anything to whoever? Child sized leg-irons to the Saudis? GM chicken? Cheddar from Newcastle?

‘come along now Mr Davis…. time for your medication…..’

I suspect he had already had his medication and it came in liquid form out of a bottle. He is a known drunkard

WTO
If we have a “no tariff ” border on the island of ireland then we have to offer tarrif free trade to everyone else. This of course means an utter disaster for UK manufacturing and agriculture

I blame Ghandi, he started it!

It was always about politics, the main mission was to secure a lasting peace in post war Europe. The lie that it was about trade and wandered from that mission into politics is just revisionist bollocks.

The interviewer didn’t press him on where these 16 million odd people were going to live, or that this would be one of the biggest movements of people since WW2 or the partition of India, but who needs to let things like practicality and facts get in the way. Perhaps if somebody figured out how to combine London and Scotland in some kind of Berlin Airlift type arrangement it could just work.

I dont think refugees leaving england will be the problem

whatever way brexit pans out I can see the next referendum being on Irish reunification & the DUP have blown up so much goodwill, while the UK parliament has demonstrated itself to be uttery incompetenet that I think reunification is happening sooner

when it does we will be dealing with an influx of NI citizens, who would surely be granted UK citizenship if desired from one of the poorest parts of Britain, into the rUK, with all the dissatisfaction & sectarian legacy that will bring

Well, that was another funny quote I heard on Radio four – one the the DUP ministers seriously saying that the best solution all around would be if the Republic of Ireland also left the EU. Where to start with that one !!?!??!

Pinch of salt time… but anyone relying on May making a last minute decision “in the interests of the country” really need to have another think…

I understand that May will tell political cabinet if it is a choice between revocation of Article 50 and pursuing a no-deal Brexit, she would opt for no-deal.

— Sebastian Payne (@SebastianEPayne) April 2, 2019

…parliament needs to put measures in place to stop this. And by Parliament, I mean Labour. Look at the voting figures for the Cherry amendment in the indicative votes. Why did Labour whip to abstain on this? I think I know why, but don’t want the Corbyn believers doing their bore off thing on me, so someone else can state the obvious. The Labour leadership need to rethink, if they get another chance. Parliament should seek to be able to stop Brexit and revoke at the final hour, if all else has failed.

Why did Labour whip to abstain on this?

Because of optics, as has been the case for a long time. Labour cannot whip to revoke Brexit for now (might be a possibility at the very last minute) because they will immediately by branded Traitors, Betrayers Of The Will Of The People, etc. If labour do whip to revoke A50 it’ll be at the very last minute, under the guise of “the Conservatives ruined your Brexit, sorry”.

Just FTR – even if Labour had whipped to support and managed to get all their MPs to vote in favour (including Hoey etc) the motion still would have failed – it was the most heavily defeated of the four. Have you considered that parties other than labour should move their position (e.g if SNP supported the CU option that would have passed easily)…

Labour cannot whip to revoke Brexit for now (might be a possibility at the very last minute)

The amendment was to enable exactly this, ie at the last minute parliament would get to vote to revoke rather than leave with no deal. It was NOT an amendment that stops Brexit, it was to enable parliament to do so in the final hours if all else fails. Labour abstained to allow the government alone to keep this power.

even if Labour had whipped to support and managed to get all their MPs to vote in favour (including Hoey etc) the motion still would have failed

That is simply wrong. The vote was “lost” by 101 votes, 104 Labour MPs abstained (as per whip) and 18 voted against (and probably would no matter what as it happens). So would have been hard to get a win, but if Labour did whip in favour, and did get their members to vote in favour, it would have been won. That wouldn’t have been the case though, no whip will come close to 100% on any of this stuff, so the vote could have been very tight.

Why did Labour whip to abstain on this?

I gave an answer to this last night. Labour are pitching themselves as the compromise party seeking unity between leavers and remainers. They can’t do this if they threaten leavers with revocation. There will be other ways to prevent no deal as a last resort, either through a parliamentary vote specifically preventing it and directing the PM to ask for another extension in order to have another referendum, or through a no confidence vote and subsequent election.

Have you considered that parties other than labour should move their position (e.g if SNP supported the CU option that would have passed easily)

Don’t be daft, that would disrupt the anti-Corbyn hysteria on here with actual reality.

It was NOT an amendment that stops Brexit

Entirely true, but that’s not how the Mail etc would report it. Just look at how they’ve tried to make an example of Bercow for “blocking Brexit” when he’s just exercising standard parliamentary process.

That is simply wrong.

Argh – you are entirely correct. I misread the infographic for voting numbers – apologies 🙁

EDIT: this infographic – https://twitter.com/paul1kirby/status/1112840273116229642

According to BBC lunchtime news just now these are the choices:

1. No deal
2. Revoke Article 50
3. Delay for a period of time (1 or 2 years if possible) or longer …

I think I know the choice they are going for to prevent Brexit. 🤔

So Labour abstains on taking the power away from a Tory government to deliver no deal… and you useless idiots bang on about the Daily Mail, the SNP, and “seeking a compromise”.

I apologise for the insults, but this double speak is nuts… the Labour Party strengthening May’s hand, at this late stage, is maddening.

Labour are pitching themselves as the compromise party seeking unity between leavers and remainers.

I’m afraid, from my perspective, they’re making a really bad job of this…

No deal would be catastrophic for the country and most importantly to May for the tories. For that reason I don’t see it happening. Its tory party first for her and although a poor politician she is smart enough to know that a catastrophic no deal would be blamed on her and the Tories and would also split the party

toss up between a second ref and a GE both with a long extension. Second ref my be tacked onto Mays deal – so vote for Mays deal with a confirmatory ref.

Playing chicken with May and her party, by voting for her to keep the power to deliver no deal, is nuts.

A delay is most likely, but if that doesn’t happen, and May then does what most of her party want… well that is not some impossible scenario that can be ignored and allowed to happen just because some in Labour want Brexit at any cost.

I understand that May will tell political cabinet if it is a choice between revocation of Article 50 and pursuing a no-deal Brexit, she would opt for no-deal.

— Sebastian Payne (@SebastianEPayne) April 2, 2019

NI citizens, who would surely be granted UK citizenship if desired

NI is part of the UK, so they already have UK citizenship.

Apart from those who are Irish citizens, of course.

NI is part of the UK, so they already have UK citizenship.

yeah, thats obvious now you say it! my meaning was that UK government would be obliged to resettle them in uk?

No, it’s not obvious. It’s as if the GFA never happened, isn’t it – people still don’t get this stuff. If you’re from NI, you can be British, Irish, or both.

maybe we should build a wall

rmain one side leave on the other

and argue who will pay for it

Hadrians wall?

So Labour abstains on taking the power away from a Tory government to deliver no deal

Labour is in a deep poo poo at the moment (same can be said of Tory govt). If they don’t play their cards well Labour/Tory will be decimated in the next election and may never be a party again. They do know many of their supporters are Leavers don’t they. 🤔

toss up between a second ref and a GE both with a long extension. Second ref my be tacked onto Mays deal – so vote for Mays deal with a confirmatory ref.

The idea is to force a second GE to hijack the the 1st ref for a second ref. The long extension is just a hope that people will forget what they are there for. Play the card wrongly and you will see a rise in “nationalism”, the wrong type.

Alternatively, Scotland can have their independence and be part of EU, while half of the population(remainders) migrate to Scotland which is close to “home”. 😀

Or go for true option of No Deal and rebuild the country again … hard it may sound but it is for the long term good.

It’s in a bit of a delapidated state no?

You could use it as a hard border I mean if you don’t want to be in Europe go live top side of the wall , you would still be in engerland the rest could just carry on as if nowt had happened

much cures all the issues except people would moan they have to move and their 5 bed might be downgraded to a 2 bed terrace Win win with a bit of compromise

pretty sure they did something similar in Germany

Question for remainers: if we leave without a deal, and you could (this is hypothetical obvs) would you move to an EU country?

I would.

Playing chicken with May and her party, by voting for her to keep the power to deliver no deal, is nuts.

You do realise don’t you that labour don’t have enough votes to force through an amendment removing her power for no deal? Once again, you’re coming from the fictional view that labour has a magic stop brexit button. They’re not playing chicken, they would be playing russian roulette. The only way to gain the power you so desperately want them to exercise, is for them to win an election, yet for some reason you seem to be against that, which is very strange.

Just go for No Deal then slowly negotiate the way aroud whatever both wishes (EU & UK), coz nothing is cast in stone.

It is Not as if EU is going to be the silly not to negotiate even after No Deal.

You do realise don’t you that labour don’t have enough votes to force through an amendment removing her power for no deal?

well they probably could if they could stop their own MPs (including shadow cabinet) from disobeying their whip!

I’m quite keen on the partition idea just so long as we can build a bloody big wall between the sensible and “Wetherspoonland”.

Molgrips – me too.

One thing that has astounded me throughout this whole thing has been either the total ignorance of Irish History and politics by the Brexiteers, or the fact they genuinely just don’t GAF about the Good Friday Agreement, and the very real threat of Ireland returning to the troubles.

The Irish Times has been a good read throughout this whole shitstorm, giving a non-english perspective. Last week they nailed it by saying that from a symbolic perspective, a hard border in Ireland would send out the same message as rebuilding the Berlin Wall.

I just don’t think those advocating a hard brexit/no deal (and thus a hard border) get this at all. Mainly because they’re not interested or they simply just don’t care. Everything is ‘a price worth paying’ to them

Obviously they won’t be paying any of the price, but that’s just detail

Trickett and Lavery issue was raised multiple times with Corbyn in shadow cabinet with others making more indirect criticism – they were both present but said nothing

— Rowena Mason (@rowenamason) April 2, 2019

Question for remainers: if we leave without a deal, and you could (this is hypothetical obvs) would you move to an EU country?

Not yet.

Our families and friends are all still in UK – we’re too embedded generally. I think our jobs are Brexit-proof, we like our neighbourhood, etc etc.

I’m an EU citizen anyway (just need to get the passport) – so it might be doable for us, but it would have to be pretty bad for us to leave our aging parents, quit our jobs, and disappear out of our nieces and nephews lives for a few years.

I have called the wall the great north south divide.

which might not work actually maybe we need rich and poor areas….oh shit

chewkw
(I know I shouldn’t feed the troll) but you need to know this.
Europe will negotiate after no deal.
But I wonder what the starting point will be? Hmmmmmm.

From the Telegraph Brexit correspondent
HERE

Barnier today stressing that no deal isn’t the end of the process. If/when the UK comes back to table after several months of turmoil, £39bn citizens rights and Irish backstop will be price of admission. Back to where we started, in an even weaker negotiating position.

Thats where no deal puts us. Right back here but in a much weaker and desperate state suffering massive economic damage every day.

Nice plan.

Question for remainers: if we leave without a deal, and you could (this is hypothetical obvs) would you move to an EU country?

I would.

Yes I would, its called Scotland.