EU Referendum – are you in or out?

so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0*, & therefore presumably not 2nd ref

(*tho it still doesnt get round NI border problem?)

Just a pity 52% of the electorate couldn’t see what was staring them

52% of the electorate wouldn’t notice a bus bearing down on them.

Charles I was all like:

Democracy is the power of equal votes for unequal mind

& therefore presumably not 2nd ref

It isnt clear but it doesnt rule them out supporting both. I suspect it will be the case since the stated plan is to avoid no deal or Mays option so best to keep all options open.

so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0

But CM2.0 includes FoM?

But CM2.0 includes FoM?

Yes.

Yes

That can’t possibly be true. DannyH and his ilk have repeatedly told us that labour are a racist party which hates immigrants.

CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?

CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?

Apparently it would since thats the addon on top of the Norway model to allow that to work. Whether it will actually pass all the relevant parties is an different matter though.

And it doesn’t seem to feature in what the EU says is acceptable…

(appreciate the whole “different red lines gets a different EU response thing… )

Edit: sorry, not really thinking – this is all about proposing new red lines, yes?

the daily fail website are going with “Anarchy in the UK” at the top of the page.

CM 2.0 doesnt fix the NI border though?

Yes it does. CM2.0 includes FoM but allows exceptions in unusual circumstances. It also exempts us from CAP and CFP. Seems to me a perfectly sensible and acceptable solution, and is the soft brexit we were all talking about straight after the referendum.

So can the usual suspects please now stop all talk of labour/Corbyn/whoever else being hard brexiters who support the ERG? Some of us said all along that labour would back a soft brexit solution, but it would take time and patience to get there due to obvious political issues they have had to deal with. Seems to me that’s exactly what is now happening.

All well and good, however Norway won’t let us in to the agreement that they have with the rest of the Union, and Norway still requires border controls for goods. It’s not a solution, as it’s not agreed with the EU, and if it were, it would be a shit one.

I assume we’ve asked Norway if we can join EFTA for CM 2.0 before we start putting forward all these ‘alternative’ plans – I distinctly remember them not being keen…

Will the gammons now be clamouring for a second referendum?

the daily fail website are going with “Anarchy in the UK” at the top of the page.

I know what I want, but don’t know how to get it?

I don’t see why we need to ask Norway . If the EU want to deal with us in the same way as them that’s the EU’s perogative.

so labour will be whipping for Norwayish common market 2.0

You go for a ride, and the position swaps 180%. If true, very welcome.

it would be a shit one

If you mean vastly inferior to our current position, then yes. If it’s instead of the current WA, or the WA + a CU in PD, or no deal… it’s better for most people than any of those. Still not was promised and voted for in 2016, so the argument for a referendum should be unchanged really.

presumably not 2nd ref

Why?

Why?

Given that CM2.0 is basically remain, I’m not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option. What’s the point in having an expensive and disruptive public vote on remain vs almost remain?

Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,

erm, it really, really isnt

Given that CM2.0 is basically remain,

Sigh – it is a form of Brexit. Once we have “one way of leaving” decided by parliament, why shouldn’t the public decide whether they prefer it to keeping our current EU arrangements?

Sigh – it is a form of Brexit.

Of course it is, but it’s the least damaging and disruptive form of it. If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of it. It’s also the only option that preserves most of the status quo whilst still satisfying the referendum result. I know you don’t think that’s important but a huge number of people will disagree.

I can see why it is Brexit option that you prefer (so do I)… but why does that mean that everyone else shouldn’t get a say over choosing it over EU membership? This whole “referendum on your Brexit option but not mine” smells so off. How does that win the trust of anyone?

If this is passed then people in the UK and Europe will see almost no change to their daily lives as a result of i

unless they live in NI….

How does that win the trust of anyone?

For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result. Even then many, perhaps most, leavers still won’t accept it, but it at least provides the opportunity to claim that the result has been enacted. A poorly turned out 2nd vote (as a result of a boycott by original leave voters) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome.

Nice to see the support of what Yanis Varoufakis said last week coming home to roost.

Basically do this; and then figure it out long-term. Without the clock ticking.

unless they live in NI….

It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options. A sensible compromise that shouldn’t have been whipped against in the past. I said years ago that putting SM+CU against EU membership to the people in a referendum would probably result in us leaving in that fashion… lots of Remain voters back then would have backed that.

For the simple reason that it honours the original referendum result.

Says who? I expect millions would argue that it does not. But anyway, the 2016 referendum has set policy for government, parliament, business and individuals for years now. Why does that preclude the country having a vote on the straight choice of one form of Brexit chosen by parliament against keeping what we have?

My MD was over from Belgium the other week, and couldn’t understand why our “educated politicians” were in favour of a Norway arrangement, as he said you still pay into Europe, you have FoM, but no say in what happens.

Joanna Cherry amendment to stop no deal… Labour whipping to abstain…

It would help a lot in NI compared to other Brexit options.

Cm 2.0 doesn’t include a custom union tho, does it?

CM2 has got potential to be a very close one. Assuming SNP and those few (35ish) Tories go for it, it might just clinch.

Lots abstained last time…

) would do more damage than good I think by casting doubt on the outcome

doesn’t include a custom union

No, there is a seperate vote on that. Ken Clarke has just explained why they are not mutually exclusive, can be rolled in together if both get support, and is voting for both.

Get your lols ready…

Tory MPs held their training session today on what is a customs union

“It was very useful but one person did raise the question why they hadn’t done this two years ago”

??

— Sam Coates Sky (@SamCoatesSky) April 1, 2019

Richard Drax happy to change his mind on the subject since Friday, yet is against the commoners having a change of mind 3 years later.

Are these people too stupid to see the hypocrisy in all this, or do they simply not care?

I’m not sure the electorate would understand or accept a new referendum without a no deal option.

So the electorate should only vote on things they understand? If only we’d established that three years ago.

I know you don’t think that’s important but a huge number of people will disagree.

So what?

Is UK politics really now reduced to “who can shout the loudest?” Does that sound like a representative democracy to you?

Moreover, does it sound like the sort of thing we should be giving in to? At the risk of playing a brexie card: isn’t it exactly why we had two world wars, to quell the rise of fascism?

I’m getting increasingly tired of this “what people want” propaganda. It’s long past high time that everyone who’s been banging on about sovereignty since 2016 actually found out what it meant.

So what?

Because whatever happens at the end of this infernal process, people still have to live together. A soft brexit is a sensible and practical compromise which doesn’t make things worse. Any other option will only divide people further. We need to move on and minimise the damage from this nightmare, and the CM2 option is IMO the best/only way to do that.

A soft brexit is a sensible

No it isn’t.

and practical

No it’s not.

compromise

Not that either.

which doesn’t make things worse.

Now you’re just being silly.

Not that either.

If you think this can be sorted by a no compromise, remain at all costs strategy then you’re as deluded as the unicorn brigade. This will not be resolved by one side pursuing all-out victory.

I’ve explained this multiple times now, but I can do it once more with feeling if you really need me to.

Come what may, it’s a binary decision, we either leave or we don’t. Compromising on a yes / no question might prove a tad challenging.

Come what may, it’s a binary decision

Totally disagree. As many others have said, the problem with the referendum was that people were never told what leaving really meant. Instead they were misled with a mixture of lies and exaggeration. Treating this as a binary issue is exactly what has got us into this mess. The only way to get out is to acknowledge that binary positions aren’t going to work and seek a compromise. That’s exactly what CM2 does.

It is a compromise of sorts. What if most people don’t want it though? What if the country would rather keep EU membership than accept this compromise? And should we add Customs Union to it? That kind of multithreaded thinking is what’s going on right now by people elected to do so… if they’d insisted on doing this before triggering A50 we might have been in a slightly different position now.

Of course you could argue that if MPs think CM2.0 & CU puts the country in a worse position than EU membership, they should vote against both, and for both revoking and a referendum on any deal. It’s their remit to do what they think is best. Glad I’m not an MP.