EU Referendum – are you in or out?

This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own

A Wikipedia contributor / editor has conveniently condensed his thoughts and actions in regards to the EU into a couple of paragraphs.

“European Union
Corbyn has previously been a left-wing Eurosceptic. In the 1975 European Communities referendum, Corbyn opposed Britain’s membership of the European Communities, the precursor of the European Union (EU).[250] Corbyn also opposed the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty in 1993,[251] opposed the Lisbon Treaty in 2008,[252] and backed a proposed referendum on British withdrawal from the EU in 2011.[253] He accused the EU of acting “brutally” in the 2015 Greek crisis by allowing financiers to destroy its economy.[253][254]

During his leadership campaign, Corbyn said there might be circumstances in which he would favour withdrawal from the EU.[255] However, in September 2015, Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for Britain to stay in the EU regardless of the result of Cameron’s negotiations, and instead “pledge to reverse any changes” if Cameron reduced the rights of workers or citizens.[256] He also believed that Britain should play a crucial role in Europe by making demands about working arrangements across the continent, the levels of corporation taxation and in forming an agreement on environmental regulation.[257]

In June 2016, in the run-up to the EU referendum, Corbyn said that there was an “overwhelming case” for staying in the EU. In a speech in London, Corbyn said: “We, the Labour Party, are overwhelmingly for staying in, because we believe the European Union has brought investment, jobs and protection for workers, consumers and the environment.” Corbyn also criticised media coverage and warnings from both sides, saying that the debate had been dominated too much by “myth-making and prophecies of doom”.[258] He said he was “seven, or seven and a half” out of 10 for staying in the EU.[259]

In July 2017, Corbyn said that Britain could not remain in the European Single Market after leaving the EU, saying that membership of the single market was “dependent on membership of the EU”, although it includes some non-EU countries.[260][261] Shadow Minister Barry Gardiner later suggested that Corbyn meant that Labour interpreted the referendum result as wanting to leave the single market.[262][263] Corbyn said that Labour would campaign for an alternative arrangement involving “tariff free access”.[261] In January 2018, Corbyn reiterated that Labour would not seek to keep the UK in the single market after Brexit,[264] however in June 2018 Corbyn called for a “new single market” deal for the UK after Brexit maintaining “full access” to the EU internal market, as opposed to the “Norway model” which pro-Remainers in the party wish to see.[265] In October 2017, Corbyn said that he would vote remain if there were another referendum.[266]

In 2018, Corbyn said his main reason for not committing to remaining in the single market was freedom from EU rules on state aid to industry. He said the UK government should not be “held back, inside or outside the EU, from taking the steps we need to support cutting edge industries and local business”.[267] This prompted backlash from senior EU figures, who said that state subsidisation would be a “red line” in negotiations, as it would lead to a possible trade war between the UK and EU. One senior figure told The Times: “We have to protect ourselves and the single market … If a Corbyn government implements his declared policies the level playing field mechanism will lead to increased costs for Britain to access the single market because of distortions caused by state aid.”[268]

Also in 2018 Corbyn said he would seek a new type of customs union with the European Union, but will seek exemptions of some EU regulations for the UK, such as those regarding state aid and government subsidies.[269]

In 2019, Labour lost a vote of no confidence in the government. The Conservative government sought to open cross party talks while Corbyn initially said Labour would refuse to attend talks unless the government ruled out a “no deal brexit”.[270]”

Of course this is his voting record and more recent statements and should be considered in conjunction with his rather quiet performance running up to Ref1.

I’ve read recently, but I don’t know how true it is that he’s the most ‘disloyal’ MP in history, in regards to voting against the whip when he feels he should. Over 400 times in his time, his voting record it said to be anti-EU up to the point he became leader of Labour.

If he did wish to remain up to Ref1, it’s clear to me that he certainly doesn’t want to be part of the single-market post-brexit, given how few trade deals we have at the moment, a non single-market withdrawal would mean a ‘hard’ brexit to me.

Backing a second referendum earlier would also have split the labour party.

Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he’ll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights

That’s the only thing that will keep the economy afloat in the event we crash out.

Hard Brexit can never be anything but a neoliberal nightmare unless you want to align with Cuba, Russia, Iran and China. If a neoliberal nightmare occurs, it’s not because the Labour party failed to hold it together – it is because they failed to oppose brexit.

All those working class brexiters are well and truly **** now unless we cancel A50.

And +1 Kimbers.

Labour might have been able to mittigate the effects for a term, maybe even 2 (highly unlikely) but the Troies would get back in eventually & thered be no EU sfaety net by then.

More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest

Corbyn, McCkluskey, Milne etc have steered Labour onto the rocks

This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics.

No. Having a customs agreement with the EU, even if you call it a union, is not at all related to what the EU Customs Union actually is, and how it operates. Do not be confused by the use of a very similar name to describe something undefined and not yet agreed with the partners that would be involved (and that wouldn’t just be the EU, it would be all those with existing and future agreements with the EU as well, and even those using WTO rules only mainly to trade with us).

The reason we won’t have a labour government any time soon is for one reason and one reason only….

Jeremy Corbyn

There may be otehr factors, but theres your elephant in the room. To reach any other conclusion you need to be absolutely delusional and displaying a Waco-cult style level of devotion to the Glorious Leader!!

More to the point the damage caused by brexit red or blue would be hitting the poorest hardest

The problem with this statement is the assumption that there is a third option of no brexit. As I’ve argued many times that ship sailed 3 years ago. Whilst I admire the continuing hope that it may still be an option, the reality is that the chances are vanishingly low. The only hope of mitigating the impact on the poorest is to get a deal along the lines of labour policy, and then having a labour government. There’s still a decent chance of the former, but very little for the latter now that labour have been forced to go against their manifesto commitments.

Just saw the BBC news ‘Theresa May offers MPs Brexit delay vote’

It looks like the remainders are silently celebrating a victory with the latest announcement from the PM. Although the remainders are portraying themselves as “victims” of the political change, they are just about to pull the carpet from under leavers’ feet with a coup and perhaps even to perform the final coup de grâce for leavers. It will be remainders 2 – 0 leavers.

You mean the red unicorns policy?

Besides, the customs union is little better economically than Mays deal – and as others said – it won’t hold once the Tories get back into power.

And Labour economic policy would make us pariahs in both the US and the EU. I don’t even see how Corbyns labour would actually manage to keep us in the customs union considering their policies. The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.

Meanwhile, allegedly the Tories are revolting. [insert obvious joke here]

Theresa May to ‘rule out’ no-deal Brexit as 15 ministers announce they’re ‘ready to quit’

According to reports, a group of 23 met at Commons to discuss how to stop Brexit happening without a deal.
…
“if the Prime Minister is not able to make this commitment, we will have no choice other than to join MPs of all parties in the House of Commons, including fellow ministers, in acting in the national interest to prevent a disaster in less than five weeks’ time that we may regret forever.’”

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47373996

Thanks @chewkw… looks like actual votes in parliament to decide what the (immediate) next steps should be. About time. Will there be some of the usual tricksy May vote avoidance before then though?

The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.

I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before? And if so, how it went, electorally? Sounds like a good idea, in theory

I think that it’s fair to say that the recent Labour defections and the numbers who’ve cancelled their membership (including me) citing frustration with Magic Grandpa’s ambiguous Brexit policy may well have precipitated this, but I don’t hold out much hope that it’ll change anything – there are a lot of “what if”s before this scenario would play out.

The comments from Emily Thornberry and Tom Watson about supporting the forthcoming People’s Vote march are welcome.

I wonder if anyones thought of trying that before?

Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members let alone the voters.

but I don’t hold out much hope that it’ll change anything – there are a lot of “what if”s before this scenario would play out.

Nothing is going to work at this stage in the game. Its a case of damage limitation now. And a desperate one at that. When it comes to ‘what ifs? you have to wonder if when faced by far the hugest risk to all its previous achievements, and with it likely to usher in the greatest assault on the lives of the working classes – what would have happened had the leader of the labour party even bothered to turn up for the EU referendum campaign, then do something more than sit there for 3 years with his thumb up his arse?

Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members.

No…. I definitely seem to recall someone else beforehand.

You’re right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that. So best to restrict your appeal exclusively to them, even if everyone else finds you repellent, it doesn’t matter. Its as good as in the bag!

Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband. Yvette Cooper and Andy Burnham too and they couldn’t even convince their own members let alone the voters.

Posted 7 minutes ago

You mean the time they lost because the British public ALWAYS lurch right during a recession?

You’re right though, elections are won by how many official members you have. Everyone knows that.

Wait. What? The members arent important? Only a few days ago we were being told because Labour members overall are pro remain we should remain/have a second referendum. It really is hard keep up with the latest anti Corbyn cult position.

Its good to see that whilst the tories are still fiddling with their rebels keeping their heads down the cultists are keeping to their normal hobby of launching rabid attacks on Corbyn rather than questioning the tories. Or indeed bothering to look at the obvious divisions in the Labour party between the remainers and not.

The ERG and tories in general must love the useful idiots ranting about magic granddad or whatever the latest inane nickname is whilst letting the tories piss all over the place.

A more moderate labour party? You mean the tories? This labour party policies are simply main stream social democratic in European terms. If they move further to the right they become a right wing party as they were under blair latterly.

La la la.

Take the “everyone else is a Tory” chat to somewhere else please, and get back on topic.

Wait. What? The members arent important?

They’ve very important indeed. I don’t know about you, but I’m quite happy that the country is presently being held to ransom by a few thousand demented pensioners in the home counties who want to bring back hanging and invade France, then install a haunted victorian pencil as PM, and that our present party system has allowed them to dictate policy for the last few years

I’m equally happy that the opposition can’t oppose this madness because the party leadership is dependent on a load of sixth formers, who they ignore, and Derek Hatton and some more old trots who still think its 1977, are more interested in whats going on in Venezuela than Brexit, and would quite like it if there weren’t so many jews in the country.

All in all listening to ‘party membership’ is working out great for the country, right across the board

Sorry TJ but Corbyns “democratic capitalism” is way, way more redical than anything on the continent. The idea sounds nice but the implementation would be hugely disruptive and absolutely piss off all of our neighbours and allies. China only gets away with co-operative or nationalised industry because they have the clout to be able to sell in foreign markets, the UK would instantly find itself blocked from any foreign markets and a lot of very upset pharmaceutical, automotive, aviation and tech industries would pull out the UK and then lobby against us.

Huawei is finding it hard enough, and they have the Chinese state behind them – not a co-operative in Swindon.

Sorry TJ but Corbyns “democratic capitalism” is way, way more redical than anything on the continent.

At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?

And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise.

It will be remainders 2 – 0 leavers.

Well I shall get the champers on ice then.

At last, something real to discuss…

Start another thread about it then.

Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore (perhaps he’s just realised he’ll be out of a job…)

Former UKIP leader @Nigel_Farage says he would refuse to vote and campaign if a second referendum gives the options of the PM's deal or remaining in the EU.

He says instead he'll go "on holiday".

Latest on #Brexit here: https://t.co/ShMllf3Qgq pic.twitter.com/kxscUkJgDt

— Sky News Politics (@SkyNewsPolitics) February 26, 2019

Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be: ‘we’re going to renationalise the railways and we’re putting Len McClusky in charge. Don’t worry… he’ll have it sorted in no time!’

“Oh… and we’re sorted the energy supply companies out. We’ve booted them all out and we’re re-opening the mines”

the continent.

At last, something real to discuss rather than childish insults. What is radical about it? Workers reps on boards? Companies operating in the interests of society rather than just their shareholders? Macroeconomic policy to be democratically accountable and transparent?

And are you suggesting that worker-owned businesses cannot be a success? Evidence would suggest otherwise

Worker owned companies are shareholder companies, they act in their interest not necessarily societies.

Co-ops work in a limited range of industries (it’s no use riffing off the usual suspects like John Lewis), they do not work in industries that require rapid change – tech, pharma, engineering. If my company democratised then we’d spend 30 hours of the working week arguing and we’d fall behind the private classic corporations.

Direct democracy in regards to macroeconomic policy is mental for the same reason the Brexit vote was.

If you really want better labour bargaining power, the world has to equalise it’s living standards and tax rates, somewhere where the EU was headed. Labour isn’t internationalist like that now though.

The only hope for British workers improving their lot, is a more moderate labour party working within the rules of the EU.

That’s a downward trajectory. It doesn’t change the status quo, which as we know as not been good.

A more moderate Labour part is exactly what they don’t want.

It’s not a downward trajectory because of moderate labour or the EU, it’s a downward trajectory because the rest of the world is improving their purchasing power, where hard power and bargaining ability is what guarantees your wealth. Corbyns economics won’t change that.

You can’t insulate the UK from the rest of the world, both the left and right need to understand that they aren’t living in the 50s – where Johnny Foreigner was poor and ill educated. The working classes need to learn that the wealth that was stolen and brought into the country, giving them jobs – is no longer available to us.

We live in a limited system, for every foreigner who earns more and betters their life – without considerable growth in the UK – the more your lifestyle costs.

We need more resource abundance through automation and new tech and less people. Everything else is pissing on a fire.

Even Farage doesn’t want to leave anymore

In fairness to the arsehole he is simply saying he doesnt agree with maybots proposal and, I assume, would prefer a hard brexit option to be on the voting paper.

Its all a great idea in theory Uncle Jezza, all very admirable, but we all know that the cold harsh reality would be

Thats quite a leap you made there… Sorry I am too lazy to include the inane picture so just imagine it.

Rayban / Binners – in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on – name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.

thoughts, May has decided we are leaving an MPs are too stupid to see they are being played. The EU elections mean no parliament from mid April. No elections on the UK means the UK can’t be in the EU 1 July.

All the talk of extensions is actually irrelevant, mid April it is over. an extension to mid June really only gives two weeks.

May is basically offering her racist little england brexit or no deal. The talk of Labour backing a referendum is simply playing to the galleries wasting time.

EU elections need to happen, to give time for a referendum to happen. If there were a new referendum, just watch the bots and trolls.

As for Farage, there is a second thought, if the plan is to break the EU, and looking at the money being plowed into the far right, it might make sense for Farage’s paymaster to get him re-elected.

There is plenty of time for a second referendum – the EU have made it clear they would extend for as long as that needed. Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.

Yes the euro elections are an issue but that is one that is not insurmountable.

IF they legislate to hold them, watch parliament fail to do this. Watch May block it.

“Farage says he’ll go on holiday…”

Can we come up with suggestions on where he could go? I’m up for sending him to the surface of the sun.

Why do the media constantly give the tosser air-time?

Rayban / Binners – in most of Europe energy production and distribution are in state hands, ditto railways. Go on – name a single labour policy that is extreme and is not firmly in the social democratic tradition.

You’ve conviently only mentioned the classic nationalisation of strategic assets.

This

Another part of “democratisation” involves promoting worker control over private businesses. Worker-owned and -managed companies are rare in Britain. Less than 1% of workers are members of co-operatives. Most people do not understand what a co-op is or how to set one up—though they like the look of John Lewis, the retailer owned by its workers, which is often cited by politicians trying to build support for co-ops. (Even David Cameron, a former Conservative prime minister, praised the chain.)

Labour goes further. It has promised to give workers a “right to own”, allowing them the first chance to buy their company if it is sold.

Goes further than any mainstream left wing European party, as politico and Der Spiegel have pointed out in the past it puts them in with the fringe left in Europe.

That policy would be nothing short of a disaster in terms of our ability to trade with the rest of the world.

You haven’t managed to counter our other points either, you are just asking questions that you hope we don’t know the answer to in an effort to undermine our positions.

There’s back good balanced criticism.here

https://www.economist.com/britain/2018/05/17/corbynomics-would-change-britain-but-not-in-the-way-most-people-think

is for one one reason and one reason only….

Jeremy Corbyn

There may be otehr factors,

Make your mind up?

worker representation on boards – like in Germany? Workers owning part of the companies – like in Germany?

When companies are sold giving the workforce the right to buy? hardly radical.

Its hardly forced nationalisation without compensation