EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Whereas I’m not at all astonished that you called me an anti-semite and then ran away rather than explain yourself

Don’t worry, I’m going to go to work in that thread again soon. There’s just a fair amount of material to work with.

Now, are you going to admit you were wrong about a customs union?

“A” customs union is anything you want it to be, possible/negotiable, or not.

What kind of customs agreement is achievable with the EU without FoM is the real question. Would it be too restrictive? Too limited? Of very limited usefulness to business looking where to site investment in Europe?

An ellipsis has three dots.

Agreed… But that < is not an ellipsis. This is an ellipsis…

If they can’t get a Labour Hard Brexit, they will support us having a say over a Tory Hard Brexit.

Ah so a bit like Russian roulette where there’s 6 bullets in the gun and either they can pull the trigger but it looks better if you did it yourself….why can’t I climb to this level of clever shit

Youre very naive if you don’t see this as a panicked response to millions of voters deserting them for Chukka & co.

No.

That’s how you see it. Doesn’t make it a fact. (Millions of voters?)

Like I said there was an amendment to an amendment on the 29th of Jan for a consideration to a second referendum – Tinger Soubry voted it down.

Don’t worry, I’m going to go to work in that thread again soon. There’s just a fair amount of material to work with.

Yes, you managed further abuse without relating it to anything I’ve actually said. I can’t say I’m surprised, as you seem determined to live down to expectations.

What kind of customs agreement is achievable with the EU without FoM is the real question. Would it be too restrictive? Too limited? Of very limited usefulness to business looking where to site investment in Europe?

All relevant questions, which is why binners was factually incorrect when he dismissed it out of hand.

Starmer has said vote will be between deal or remain.
Edit and Corbyn is on board with it.

Rumour has it that Labour don’t want “Remain” as an option on the ballot.

I know 14 hours is a long time in this thread, but I wanted to drag this back.

I think, possibly for the first time in my life as far as I can remember, there really isn’t a ‘Labour’ or ‘Government’ position as such, there’s a leadership position but MPs from every party have grown a set, or at least know there’s not so much to gain from sucking up to their leaders any more.

Okay, maybe ‘Labour’ don’t want remain as a option, maybe not – it doesn’t matter, it’s individual MPs who vote now, not parties – I mean Labour is lead by the officially least loyal MP by means of voting for his parties politics. 3 line whip? Do me a favour, threaten to make someone leave? The Tiggers have shit the main parties right up, it’s one thing to have a few hardcore backbenchers spewing bile about the EU, but when MPs actual leave to join forces will MPs from across the commons, that’s a completely different thing.

So maybe 70 Labour MPs won’t vote for Ref2, fair enough – 176 will? The ERG represent about 60 Tory backbenchers, but not even 48 of them were brave enough to sign a letter of no-faith in May – so they’ll block Ref2, I’m sure a few others will try to block it too – after all, Brexit has been such a runaway success with the Country completely united behind it, no need to ask us to have another vote now we all know the truth. Call it 150

Bill for a second Ref – ayes to the left 500, Nays to the right 150.

Labours ‘plan’ is totally nonsensical. Remain in ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union, retain tariff free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of movement.

As a negotiating position it wouldn’t survive first contact with reality. Though as is amply being demonstrated by those who ‘believe’, reality is in very short supply in the bunker

Cake, anyone….?

And I agree with P-Jay. Whatever position the ‘leadership’ of either party parrot is increasingly irrelevant in the face of the total breakdown of party discipline.

That can only be a good thing in my book as both parties have been ‘led’ by their nutter wing for the last couple of years. Hopefully this means the less deranged are now asserting their authority

How massively ironic that its Jeremy Corbyn on the receiving end of that rebellion.

Schadenfreude?

TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.

This is going to end well for labour isn’t it?

Bwhahahah.

Brexit, the gift that keeps on giving. The Tories image as the party of business is irrevocably destroyed meanwhile labour is imploding. Who would have thought it would get this mental 3 years ago?

TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.

Followers, not voters.

And those polling numbers are irrelevant unless they stand in every seat.

TIG have 1/3 of the amount of followers the Labour party do on twitter – in a matter of days.

This is going to end well for labour isn’t it?

Bwhahahah.

Yeah, Tiggers are the new kids on the block so every Man, Women and their Dog are interested, whether they support them or not. They’re not really a party (at the moment) plus there are former Tories amongst them, it’s not just a Labour splinter group, although I suspect a lot would return under a different leader.

I’m really interested in how they pan out, if they do become a party, or ‘just’ force change within Lab/Tor and then fade into history.

And those polling numbers are irrelevant unless they stand in every seat.

A hunch tells me a lot of donors are going to be throwing money at them to do just that.

In a mirror image of having Theresa May supporting an amendment to defeat her own deal, According to John Pienaar on the BBC; Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with labour MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own party’s stated policy (and that decided by conference) of a second referendum,

The worlds gone ****ing mad!

This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own

This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost, or that he has the remotest interest in representing anyone else’s views other than his own

Or you could work out this is the single most decisive issue in UK politics, doesn’t fall across any party lines and is causing chaos everywhere. The only leader with any slight control is May and it’s only slight as she can put things forward and sort of control the timetable. the rest don’t have that and no threat of losing power to whip votes.

That is the lesson to learn form this.

Corbyns goons are presently having meetings with MPs in leave voting areas to get them to vote against his own policy’s party of a second referendum

So Corbyn has gone full Vladislav Surkov in his approach to politics (postmodernist theatre)?

Farage suggests leavers should boycott any referendum offering choice between May’s deal and remain.

Farage quits?

Labours ‘plan’ is totally nonsensical. Remain in ‘a’ customs union, but not ‘the’ customs union, retain tariff free access to the single market without being a member of the single market, and end freedom of movement.

So nonsensical that it’s what Turkey does right now.

at least the government is a well planned organisational colossus.

pissup/brewery

This must surely finally nail this nonsense that Corbyn is anything other than a hardline Brexiteer who wants Brexit at any cost

The only thing it confirms is that he’s not the ‘totalitarian dictator’ that you and others on this thread have been claiming and that the labour party democracy is in ruder health than the usual anti-labour suspects on here claim. There will be people who disagree with the 2nd vote policy, and they will continue to campaign against it, as they have the right to do. They will probably rebel too when it reaches the commons. I’d rather they didn’t but as some have said, politics is now in a place where party whips have been rendered redundant so there’s no reason for them not to.

The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They’ve nailed their colours to the mast (belatedly admittedly), as many on here have been wanting, so now we just have to wait and see what happens. My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they’ve given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM. Strange isn’t it how quiet he is at the moment? Keeping his head down no doubt in advance of the coming tory leadership election.

So nonsensical that it’s what Turkey does right now.

What “Turkey does now” doesn’t keep the border on Ireland open, and doesn’t allow for us “having a say” in future EU trade deals, as Corbyn is seeking.

The main question now that labour has activated the final stage of their brexit policy, is whether it will damage them in an election. They’ve nailed their colours to the mast

I honestly don’t think the party or Corbyn has, I really think Corbyn is playing at being Surkov. He is Schroedinger’s Brexiter, in that he is still pretending to be both a remaminer and a brexiter.

Deafening pop as Labour finally pulls its finger out of its arse 😀

Maybe this is why Boris has gone quiet? (Maybe he is in hiding in South America!!)

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anti-labour suspects

Criticising Corbyn and his team of shitbags is not equivalent to criticising all labour policy. It’s cultish to describe Corbyn’s critics of being “anti-labour”.

The Tories image as the party of business is irrevocably destroyed

In only two words as well – impressive.

Corbyn and labour still have the problem of 100 or so labour MPs who believe that labour must not have a remain option ever at all – not for leftie reasons but for fear of the electorate
“The Labour MP John Mann warned Corbyn risked being ditched by voters over the party’s “absurd” shift to support a second referendum.

“Voters won’t have it. The last person to renege on their manifesto was Nick Clegg. It didn’t end very well for him on tuition fees,” he told Today.

“Our manifesto was unambiguous – we would accept the result of the referendum. A second referendum doesn’t do that and the voters – in very, very large numbers – will not accept that.”

This is Corbyns issue and it would be the same with any labour leader.

BTW binners – that did not answer my question but I know its impossible.
One little quote of Corbyn saying he wants a hard brexit? Labour position is softest of soft brexits

And now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum – the attack dogs are out

My feeling is that whilst it may help to resolve brexit in as benign a form as possible, they’ve given up any hope of winning the next election. You might want to get used to the idea of Boris Johnson as PM.

Yep.

Tory double win. Crackers.

12th, 13th and 14th of March shaping up to be some of the most important political days in a very long time

— Laura Kuenssberg (@bbclaurak) February 26, 2019

15th March is the day Caesar was stabbed in the back, wasn’t it?

nd now labour have come down firmly on a second referendum – the attack dogs are out

That’s well and truly underway.

But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.

Sorry Uncle Jezza but on this your wilful myopia regarding magic grandad is absolutely ridiculous. Much like the rest of the cultists

I’ll link it again for you

LABOURS OFFICIAL NEGOTIATING POSITION AS TAKEN FROM ITS OWN WEBSITE

Labour offers fair rules and reasonable management of migration. In trade negotiations our priorities favour growth, jobs and prosperity. We make no apologies for putting these aims before bogus immigration targets.

Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union. Britain’s immigration system will change, but Labour will not scapegoat migrants nor blame them for economic failures.

in what way does that fail to answer your question? As part of its official position the labour party’s own website clearly states that FoM WILL END

So… no freedom of movement… no customs union and no single market

Pure pie-in-the-sky cakism

But you know what we will have a Tory government and be in the EU. Status quo = austerity and living standards plummeting.

So which is responsible for “austerity and living standards plummeting”? The Tory government or the EU?

the attack dogs are out

True.

Looks like some front benchers are prepare to fight back against Milne&Co this time though…

Whoever briefed that my colleague “misspoke” undermines the sovereignty of the current shadow cabinet. https://t.co/wtP94btybq

— Tom Watson (@tom_watson) February 26, 2019

So… no freedom of movement… no customs union and no single market

This is just pedantic arguing about the semantics. Labour have been clear that they want a customs union and regulatory alignment with the single market. By any definition that is a soft brexit. Who cares if we call it ‘THE’ customs union or ‘A’ customs union? It’s just daft.

Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario. In that case he’ll have carte blanche to make concessions to the US. Bye bye NHS and workers rights. All enabled by the failure of the labour party to stick to it’s manifesto commitments. I look forward to Yvette Cooper et al being rightly slagged off on here in a coupe of years when we start to see the wholesale dismantling of the welfare state.

As far as I can see the only hope of avoiding this now is to win a new referendum and win a remain vote in it. Given that there are substantial numbers of MPs on both sides who will not support a referendum, that’s going to be an extremely tall order.

Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt

nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote

Anyway, there’s now a much bigger issue in play, in that by supporting a new vote, Labour have massively increased the chances of a future tory govt lead by Boris Johnson in a post-brexit scenario.

Thats quite a leap you made there…

nah that was Labour not backing a 2nd ref much sooner, leading to a splintering of the party & their vote

Well that’s just pure speculation. At least we know what the excuses and accusations of blame will be when labour lose. It’s tragic really, the only hope of brexit not being the neoliberal nightmare we all fear was the labour party being at the helm to steer it, and I really can’t see that happening now.