EU Referendum – are you in or out?

The ever closer union issue is the crux. For those countries (2/3 of members) who are part of the € project this is a fundamental requirement. The € project will fail without monetary AND fiscal union and the greater political union that this requires. Even then it might fail due to the fact that the € zone does not satisfy the basic criteria for a common currency area.

For the other 1/3, the issues are different. However. when you look at the leaked negotiation documents (see yesterday’s FT) you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.

Of course, these big issues remain to be addressed. In the meantime lets get frothy about child benefit – no really, lets….

ahwiles – Member

elections to the european parliament are based on proportional representation.

Europe (as a federated union) is more democratic than the uk…

Ya right I was born yesterday. 🙄

you realise that we have a pretty good deal all in all.

Well, we had an even better one till Bliar gave away 40% of our rebate in return for promised CAP reforms that never happened…

Well it looks increasingly like Dave’s coming back with nowt. It’ll be interesting to see how he tries to spin that. As anything other than Nige’s birthday present.

Not that it was of any significance anyway – the total amount of the benefits we’re talking about here is apparently 30 million quid a year. Neither here nor there really. So even if he gets everything he asked for, we’re still effectively be voting on the status quo. As if it was ever going to be anything other than that?

FTFY

Merkel isn’t even present at the negotaitions, the EUs most powerful leader is a no show She’s sending a signal about how important this charade is

Probably can’t stand to be in the same room…

I’ve just read Michael Gove is joining the out campaign. Well I’m definitely in then.

I heard that also, what a story eh ? I dont believe a word, if he had helped a British Soldier to safety from a dangerous situation it would have been national news and Im pretty sure the wounded soldier would have come forward by now.

It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?

I fear Cameron’s give-me-what-I-want-or-else negotiating style is not very convincing when there is no “or else”. What’s the worst he could do? Organise a referendum? Tiens donc.

Mibbe not, but there would at least be a Commando comic with the story in it, aye?

It would be front page news if an afghan soldier helped a British one in combat?

The story quoted on LBC if it had been true would have yes !

Did you hear the story ?

I bet the In Supporters will celebrate hysterically by hailing the negotiation as the best ever deal for UK the moment the PM is back … Pui! Pui! Pui! (Greek style woman spitting) 🙄

Cameron has certainly wound a few people up over the last few days. Just had a guy on TV reminding everyone that there wouldn’t be an immigrant crisis if Great Britain hadn’t destabilised the region (Iraq/syria) with a war started on false pretexts.

binners

Not that it was of any significance anyway – the total amount of the benefits we’re talking about here is apparently 30 million quid a year. Neither here nor there really. So even if he gets everything he asked for, we’re still effectively be voting on the status quo. As if it was ever going to be anything other than that?

See the post at the top of this page, the net will be far, far less and IMO actually cost us MORE money.

It really is just an absolutely ridiculous charade, isn’t it? Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that?

Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that?

Yep.

A bit like the guy I heard on R2 earlier in the week, along the lines of:

“if anyone votes out based on the child benefit story they are an idiot”

chewkw – Member

I bet the In Supporters will celebrate hysterically by hailing the negotiation as the best ever deal for UK the moment the PM is back …

I think most of them are just shaking their heads in disgust tbh.

It really is just an absolutely ridiculous charade, isn’t it? Is there anyone daft enough to view it as anything other than that?

Camerons whole time in office has been a charade, his whole raison d’être as prime minister is a charade, his masquerade is an insult to the intelligence of the masses, so if you are a stayer inner just take a bit of time and have a good long hard think as to why camerade wants to stay in the EU !

If we remain within the EU his job will be done and the neolibs will have won, you can kiss the labour party and any form of adversarial real politics in this country good bye.

What a lot of this debate ignores is the amount of funding the EU creates for everything from University research to small business to social enterprise projects.

Who’s going to take up that funding if we leave, do you trust Call Me Dave and his cronies to step in?

A quick Google search found this list of beneficiaries of the European Regional Development Fund. It is from 2007-2013 and only covers the East Midlands.

It’s a big list.

Well, we can all relax. Pob has apparently decided to join the exit campaign. With his track record it will make brexit less likely after all. Phew.

The interesting undercurrent of this is what the labour party and Corbyn are doing. On the surface they are campaigning to stay in. At face value I reckon they’re sincere in this but they will have surely learned the lessons of the Scottish Referendum and won’t be caught out this time campaigning to save Cameron’s bacon. If the referendum results in a leave vote – as I’m pretty certain it will – against Cameron’s view, then he’ll be finished. Given Corbyn’s previous less than enthusiastic support of the EU project I can’t help but think the labour party are saying one thing, but hoping for another.

A couple of questions
1) What is the sum of money paid out by the UK to citizens of other EU countries children living outside the UK?
2) How much money is paid by EU countries to British citizens living/working abroad with children back in the UK.

I don’t think the current child benefit situation is satisfactory, but IMO not worth getting knickers in a twist over and leaving the EU.

I’ll just leave this here.

And yes, it’s real.

A bigger pair of twunts I can hardly imagine.

I cannot decide which one to hit first

Newsflash the greatest surprise of our lifetime is upon us

There is unanimous support for a deal between the UK and the EU, European Council president Donald Tusk has said.
David Cameron said he would recommend the deal, which he said gives the UK “special status” in the EU, to his cabinet on Saturday.
The agreement reached following drawn-out negotiations in Brussels paves the way for the UK’s EU referendum.
Downing Street said it included a “brake” on welfare payments that can apply for seven years.

SO people to the polls

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35616768

So, thats it. End of thread.

Call me Daves done it and we can all relax.

My choice remains as it did about 7 pages back, but less sceptical.

I’m in.

Sadly I say leave.

Gove is saying out, for thatcreason alone I’m in

Meanwhile at UKIP hq

Also, I’d like to point out it’s nice the see Call Me Dave and his entourage put a days work in for a change.

I honestly DGAS about the media play up about all the hours he’s put in, the hours he’s stayed up and the meals he’s allegedly missed.

Nice one Dave, welcome to the world of the Worker, stop whining and making it a big thing.

Get on with it Son.

One only has to look at the grey hair ratio (or extend of hair dye) and howit increases rapidly to realise that PMs work bloody hard and are under a lot of stress. Basic salary is hardly worth it, hence the (undignified if understandable)!dash for cash afterwards.

I was sceptical about this summit (?) largely because it missed the more fundamental questions that are crucial to a proper referendum, Nonetheless, a small hats of to Dave. Having read the leaked EU documentation (courtesy of the FT) there were “some” important issues to addresss and that was no easy task.

So a qualified “not bad” from me.

Now for the real issues.

@athgray, you are quite right, that issue alone is not the drving factor in a Leave/Remain decison.

This sums up Cameron’s achievement perfectly 🙂

it does not really- not in terms of what he tried to get and what he did get.It probably sums up how your average kiper feels though.
IMHO the rest is froth but the commitment that the uk is not tied to ever further integration is significant the rest is just an appeal to those who think immigrants come here to steal our benefits- the kindest i can call these folk is ill informed.

Exactly. Whatever deal Cameron got was always going to be decried as vastly insufficient by those that want to leave, and always bulled up as a great achievement and just what Britain needs by Cameron.
As for every increasing political union – there’s not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there? Especially for those countries outside the Euro. Still some talk about it, but no real action – or have I missed something?

Interesting for two reasons:

1) a la carte style EU. Which could be considered a necessity anyway because Euroscepticism is in no way an exclusively British sentiment.

2) All the major parties are now on the same side….

So for the lay-idiot, what’s happened in words of one syllable?

Nowt @Kryton. He aksed for virtually nothing, secured that after a tough battle for PR purposes and will now campaign for Remain

As for every increasing political union – there’s not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there?

Really ? I thought you must be being facious but I fear not. If Cameron ahd actually asked for some real changes then I could have supported him but the list of demands was an absolute joke.

As an aside over the past few years there has been consistent pressure from the EU to get the UK (non euro member of course) to harmonise VAT with them, this means no discounts for electricity and gas and VAT on food.

As posted earlier the biggest danger imho is the Referendum is a close Leave and Cameron ignores the result and justifies this by going back for further “concessions”. The French and Belgians for saw this and tried to get a agreement which said there would be no further discussions after the Referendum. Unlike the Scottish Referendum there is no Edinburgh Agreement to make it legally binding, just like Dave’s fake concessions.

CFH the fact you have Farage and Galloway on the same platform shows that the issue is a real cross party / political spectrum one. Galloway (and Corbyn) recognise that the EU freedom of movement is fundamentally bad for the UK working class population

A couple of questions
1) What is the sum of money paid out by the UK to citizens of other EU countries children living outside the UK?
2) How much money is paid by EU countries to British citizens living/working abroad with children back in the UK.

Top of previous page.

1) £30m apparently
2) Don’t ask awkward questions 😉

Nige and the Cat on the same platform apparently caused a section of the Tory Eurosceptics in the audience to walk out. Rather than showing cross political concensus in my opinion it smacks of desperation and will not work to persuade floating voters.

It is interesting to see what would have normally have been regarded as the Tory Press really laying into Call Me Dave this morning and bigging up Gove/Pob. Don’t they remember how unpopular he was amongst the general populace?

Oh, and the odious Toby Young thinks Brexit is a good idea, so another good reason not to vote No

As for every increasing political union – there’s not been much sign of that for these last 10 years has there?

Really ? I thought you must be being facious but I fear not. If Cameron ahd actually asked for some real changes then I could have supported him but the list of demands was an absolute joke.
As an aside over the past few years there has been consistent pressure from the EU to get the UK (non euro member of course) to harmonise VAT with them, this means no discounts for electricity and gas and VAT on food.[/quote]
So an ignored request to harmonise a tax code is the best example you can find of “ever increasing political union” these last 10 years.
You haven’t changed my mind.

Distasteful as it to find myself in agreement with Dave about anything, If you think we should be out of Europe then you’ll find yourself in the company of Michael Gove, Boris Johnson, Ian Duncan Smith, Nigel Farage and George Galloway. Oh…. and the leader writers of the Daily Mail and Express.

All Dave needs to do is repeatedly point that out