EU Referendum – are you in or out?

Great visualisation on changes in social media since the referendum

https://cronycle.com/insights/brexit-2018-jan-edition

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Manfred Weber, leader of the centre-right European People’s party ( the grouping the tories used to be in before the loons started piling on the pressure)  He is also a staunch ally of Merkel

“I hear a lot of things which London don’t want, but for the moment I have no idea what they want. No idea, no clarification about their orientation, about what they want to achieve.

I’m appealing to London: We cannot achieve anything with such a state of mind. The British government needs to come out with concrete proposals very soon, time is running and we need an orientation, what they want to achieve.”

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So its obvious that May and go do not know where they want to end up and thus neither do the EU side contrary to what Davies and THM have said

May and her frenemies have told us exactly what they want to replace EU membership with… her/our intentions are clear… and we’re backing her 100%! Rule Britannia!

My vote for a candidate from a party other than hers is also a ringing endorsement and overwhelming mandate for the clear plan she has set out before us.

The referendum was an overwhelming mandate for the alternative future relationship with Europe that Cameron laid before us when he called on us to choose our path. Such clarity! Such vision!

Negotiatimg for what, though? Has it been explained? Or agreed? Or (heaven forbid) voted on?

An interesting take on the present situation in the Tory party by Rafael Behr

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/feb/05/brexit-tory-realists-eu-jacob-rees-mogg?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

I’ve just about given up reading anything from the Guardian… but that’s a very well observed piece.

Dr

1. See v

2. Yes

3. No, that’s why we are negotiating

4. Not yet

anyone with access to the internet can access various sources that lay out (1) what we want – essentially 5 things – and under what conditions – 6-7 conditions depending on what you source. Then you can cross checks all these factors against the off-the-shelf solutions  that could be chosen – to see the shortcomings and trade offs involved with each. From there you can see why we want a new – some might say bespoke – FTA that maximises the 5 and minimises the 6-7

i have posted various links in the past

So most of the claims made here and elsewhere are simply untrue. The info is there for anyone to see. So those who persist with untrue narrative are either too lazy to check or happy to deliberately state things that are untrue. Given that the intention is to overturn a democratic process, it seems grossly unfair to include this subset in the group known as remainers. That is very rude on genuine remainers.

Well link a few then, THM, or spell it out yourself. If not I’ll assume you can’t because there is no list of five things or 6-7 anywhere I’ve looked. I’m interested, go on, demonstrate that you can be informative and helpful.

You can assume what you like Ed. No skin off my nose.

In post brexit Britain, you don’t rule britannia, britannia rule you. *

*unless you have non dom status

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Have Philip Hammond and Jacob Rees-Mogg read your lists?

Perhaps the confusion is that TM is telling the EU to google it

5 things we want

Cake

Unicorns

Sovereignty

Blue passports

The British Empire back circa 1922

RM not clearly. His desires conflict obviously with several of the governments objectives

correctly TM ignores that

THM with more pish?  there is not even agreement in the cabinet on what they want.  The EU negotiators are alternating between pleading for some idea of what the torires want and laughing at them for being unable to spell it out.

So go on them THM – let us know what the government position is that you and you alone are privy to- ‘cos not even May knows.  The crunch cabinet meeting to thrash out the position is IIRC later this week.

No lists of hopes count of course.  concrete proposals only please.  Not wishlists of wishful thinking that are simply not possible and / or have already been ruled out

Put up or shut up.  No answer just confirms what we all know – you have no idea at all and neother do the tories.

I prefer it when you use your kilfile

that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously

Would you like the quotes again of Merkel, Barnier and other significant players asking for the Tories to actually spell out what they want?

“The British Government has still provided “no clarification” about what it actually wants to get out of Brexit, leaving the EU with “no idea” about the sort of relationship it is aiming for, a top Brussels ally of Angela Merkel has warned.

Manfred Weber, the leader of the largest group of MEPs in the European Parliament, said the UK needed “to come out with concrete proposals very soon” and complained that while Theresa May was happy to rule things out, she would not say what she actually wanted.”

Have a listen to his statement
<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-talks-deal-manfred-weber-angela-merkel-germany-eu-michel-barnier-david-davis-a8196776.html</span&gt;

Guy Verhofstadt, the European Parliament’s Brexit coordinator, suggested that the Prime Minister was locked in “a domestic negotiation” with her own cabinet about what her policy actually was.

Michel Barnier, the European Commission’s chief negotiator, also said on Monday that “without a customs union and outside the single market, barriers to trade in goods and services are unavoidable”. He said it was time for the UK to “make a choice”

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>On the Brexit negotiations themselves, he said the British government has unrealistic expectations — particularly on access to the EU market for financial services. U.K. Brexit Secretary David Davis has said the British government is seeking a free-trade agreement like the one the EU has with Canada but with much broader scope — “Canada plus plus plus” as he put it. And Chancellor Philip Hammond said last week he regards a post-Brexit deal that excludes services as unfair. “More than 80 percent of our economy is services. Services is the fastest growing area of global trade. And it is the area where we have our biggest comparative advantage,” he told the German paper Welt am Sonntag.</span>

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>    Brok said that negotiations about the U.K.’s future relationship with the EU were so complex they would have to carry on into a transition period.</span>

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>But Brok said there aren’t any trade deals around the world open to financial services, and that the U.K would have to maintain EU standards if it wants to retain something close to the current access it enjoys.</span>

Ach schade kein kilfile

but thank you very much for proving me right. So you quote DD and PH being clear on the fact that one of our goals is to ensure that it (the deal that you deny) includes services (PH) and that it’s more than the Canada deal (DD) which only provides very limited access to services

so your chosen quote gives detail on part of what we want and also confirms that the warring parties agree. Bravo

its so much better when you supply quotes to kill your own arguments rather than other people having to point the pork pies out. Less time and angst

Even the FT

“Prime minister Theresa May is under mounting pressure to clarify the UK’s future relationship with the EU”

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>Downing Street said: “It is fair to say the prime minister has an open mind when it comes to these negotiations [about the future relationship with the EU].”</span>

Or the indy

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>It comes as Ms May faced increasing pressure to set out her position on the UK’s long term relationship with the European Union in the face of growing dissatisfaction from both wings of the Conservative Party.</span>

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>The Prime Minister also resisted pleas to clear up confusion about her aims for the long-term relationship with the EU – despite warnings that her dithering would trigger a vote of no confidence in her leadership from Tory backbenchers.</span>

he is good at this trolling[ within the rules yet not respecting them] i will give him that

Ninfan is more entertaining though,even he can make cogent points in between his attempts to get a rise.

Not really junkyard – a good troll is believable and not easily refuted

come on THM – we want you to share your knowledge of this – knowledge not shared with May et al

So TJ now that you seem to be arguing for my points, we can progress

You have correctly identified that the UK government is seeking a FTA that includes services and that DD and PH both agree on that

So from your correct conclusion, we can now eliminate some of the existing off the shelf deals. Hey, it’s easy this stuff isn’t it?

after that – shall we try the Uak governments position on tariffs?

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I prefer it when you use your kilfile

that way you might, just might, respect cougar’s wishes. Long shot obviously

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The pot just called….

Se despite the collected EU negotiating team asking TM to give some proper details you still claim it’s all there if we JFGI, though you are unable to actually point to the source you are reading. JRM despite being an obnoxious shit is also the figure head for the side of the party that have a significant amount of control on government policy due to the wafer thin majority/minority that May gave herself.

She can’t ignore them and she can’t do everything they want. But she can’t negotiate properly with the threat of tanti’s hanging over her..

THM – not at all

You claimed the UK position was clear.  I have shown you that 1) the cabinet is divided and 2) the EU negotiators have no idea what the UKs position is

You said you knew what the UKs position was.  Well lets hear it – put up or shut up.

That twitter map analysis is interesting.

I don’t know if it’s meaningful, but it’s interesting.

it does suggest all the little Brexy snowflakes are melting away…

Yep

(the government and gov related bodies come up in the first few sites on any google search)

since you mention JRM you can help TJ with the tariff question. Then Jacob can be put back in his box and out of harms way

On the contrary having regurgitated ad verbatim what the other sides strat comm team want you to believe you then identified clearly (thank you) one of the key government goals and confirmed that PH and DD were agreed on that.

We are making progress. Now tariffs?

Not really going to play your little games, got links then post links, your always keen to shoot others down…

Any idea why the rest of the EU doesn’t think the UK has a plan? Perhaps you need to get yourself over to Brussels and let them know how stupid they all are.

They are not stupid

They know how to manipulate the media narrative

You are demonstrating just how clever they are

If only our side was as smart and as media savvy

Tariffs?

a good troll is believable and not easily refuted

no that is an idiot. A good troll garners responses and a very good one garners them from folk who know what they are doing and still respond. He is going to hint and and allude to his point whilst wallowing in his own grasp of the opaque as he mocks your comprehension. We all know this. Nothing substantial will be forthcoming.

TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.
I am not sure what anyone hopes to achieve here and I think this was what the mods were on about though we can all patronise within the rules. Its a bit pointless but we could.

Come on THM – we are all agog waiting to know what the tories hoped for end point is.  Something concrete please not meaningless waffle and platitudes or something that is not possible / has been ruled out.

Your inability to articulate this shows clearly that you actually have no idea.

Put up or shut up

If tariffs is too tricky, how about

does the uk wish to negotiate trade agreements independently?

TBH I dont think he believes much of what he writes these days. Perhaps the slant but its just exaggerated for effect but neither side has any respect for the other.

Reckon it’s just the latest recruitment drive for the Tory party, got to be some clueless mugs that fall for it still. The transformation of the inept HS to a spectacular leader who’s charisma gave her an election result that she truly deserved and a job she loves with adoring supporters and a mandate to give every tory MP a shot at being a minister.

“No idea” – you old tease

you have just helped me identify one of the goals and one in which two apparently opposing parties are in agreement

dont spoil the progress

tariffs?

Does the UK government want to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ?

Here you go – some more quotes from serious commentators that show that May and co simply do not have an endpoint to aim for

The EU warned Britain that it faced gridlock in trade talks unless it spelt out its Brexit goals as the minority UK government struggled to deal with a backlash from its own MPs over a transition out of the bloc.  ……..

But, with concern growing in European capitals over political paralysis in London, Michel Barnier, the EU’s chief negotiator, said that the subsequent phase of detailed trade talks would only begin as expected in March if the UK first made clear what it wanted.

“When it comes to negotiating with the British about the future, that time will come, assuming that they by that time have set out what they want,” Mr Barnier said.

The FT