EU Referendum – are you in or out?

I am torn between both.

Part of me thinks more local decisions and less centralised is a Good Thing.

But part of me thinks it is working OK, and would it rock the boat lots to leave?
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(sorry if this is repeat thread – much google fu shows one closed thread yesterday…)

Can I get a postal?
In, much prefer the free travel, work and collective achievement. Ultimately an in vote should be an all in and work to make it work rather than sniping from the back row pretending to be clever. The future will have less borders not more.

In of course don’t be silly

I should have also added – I too like the ‘we can travel more, we share more’ approach to life…

I’m in agreement with you. I can’t help thinking that trade opportunity etc needs us to remain in the EU, but at the same time am in depair about the kind of stuff that happens daily, such as us now potentially having to pay financial sanctions to the EU for holding Assange, which has already cost the taxpayer millions.

For all those things krypton there were simpler solutions…

In, because if we leave I’m not sure I’ll have a job. Simple self interest.

……shake it all about

I will vote to stay in Europe. Advantages bigger than drawbacks.

I’m in but it needs serious reforms.

As a free trade zone, the EU is brilliant, and we have to be part of it.
However, for everything else – it is loosing its way, and bloating into a united states of Europe.

For all those things krypton there were simpler solutions

Well maybe. But seeing as I have a quirky level of intelligence and am unable to understand politics as a result. I need a “good” / “bad” factual list to actually decide hence I am on the fence.

I’ve come to the conclusion I’ll never get one of those, and although there are things I know I like and don’t like I’ll be an abstainer due to the fact I can’t pin it down to one or the other.

I don’t feel I know enough about it. What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

My reasoning for leaving would be that the government generally want us to stay in the EU and generally what they want is something for themselves. Does it aid the needs of our country staying in?

My reason for staying is that Farage and UKIP want to leave and I like to disagree with everything they say do or believe in!

In, as I’ve never heard a convincing reason to leave.

I think the problem with in/out is it may not solve the real issues.

I don’t want to be in a unified Europe. I don’t see a EU working unless it has one legal and one tax system, and given its diversity that seems very unlikely to work (Greece, for example)

I don’t like trade barriers either.

So, Yes to a common market, but No to more integration.

But seeing as I have a quirky level of intelligence and am unable to understand politics as a result. I need a “good” / “bad” factual list to actually decide hence I am on the fence.

Like many things living with the eu is about reading the instructions… Of all the big battles the UK fails on reading the f’in rules before making decisions would have solved problems. Things like privacy and data protection that eu law gives the UK is a good thing.

In for me.
Aside from the trade & movement benefits, the idea of more local decisions scares me when I see the ineptitude of our party politics particularly when it comes to long term planning / strategy, and how that also impacts on things like worker rights, internet “regulation” among other things.

Reforms are no doubt needed but that is the case for any & all organisations. Unfortunately, the benefits I see, also have drawbacks which makes change harder.

In. Much of what comes out of Europe will still affect us, so it’s better that we have a say in it and try to reform from the inside than sitting on the outside with no ability to really ignore it.

I agree completely with freeagent and as the saying goes it easier to be on the train pi55ing out onto the platform than running alongside trying to pi55 in.

I’ll vote for “out”.

Europe is in the midst of the worst crisis for 70 years and its leaders have clearly still not recognised the need for change.

Having to rely on leaders of countries that are smaller than the population of London for permission to effectively manage migration to our own country is ridiculous, as is the failure of policy makers in Europe to deal decisively with the economic malaise that many countries still find themselves in.

Switzerland has more reciprocal free trade agreements than the EU, and a majority of Britain’s trade is outside the EU now. Europe must reform and reform quickly but sees no need to. It’s better to be on the outside and focus on maintain trading than inside a movement which is clearly focussed on increasing fiscal, monetary and political union as a goal in its own right.

Two issues are overhyped:

1. Britons still have to show passports when travelling to Europe – “free movement” is not there for us anyway.

2. The german and french economies will still need to sell cars etc. to us. It’s as much in their interests for trade to be maintained as it is for ours – and countries already outside the EU have little difficulty trading with it.

Abstaining until the proper vote.

This CMD stuff is just a rather silly sideshow.

There is only one question or not – do you want to be part of a Europe that involves full monetary, fiscal and political union – Yes or No

To survive, this is where it needs to go unless the silly € project is abandoned – then you could simply go back to the very sensible four core pillars as originally intended.

Fair point Mike but those instructions are diluted / painted in a certain light by politicians. If you can’t wade through that and don’t have the time or inclination to do the base research yourself, you can’t make an informed decision.

Vis a vis I was until last night firmly on the “immigrants use britians taxpayer money to fund better lifestyles” side of the fence. Then I watched a documentary of four blokes living in squalor in a uk city over a period of four years waiting for clearance to legally work in the uk. That mixed with film of thier war torn home towns, home lifestyle and dead family members made me feel as though I was an unforgiving arsehole. Or, is the program comissioned propaganda? *tin foil hat*

My current view is to play the hand I have, and live as comfortably and appropriately for my family as I can within the four walls within which control is biased toward my own capability and prejudices.

In

In.

As it currently exists, and the direction it seems to be drifting, a reluctant “Out”.

If it was returned to being a free trade/travel/work area, if it’s legislative powers were reduced, if it ever produced a set of accounts that were audited and signed off, then a definite” In”.

I’m rather on the fence over what DC thinks he has achieved for us.

It’s a staying in for me. Sure it costs a bit of money in membership fees, but amoungst other things, I like the way some areas of the UK gets a chunk of that money back that they would never normally get to see to pay for things they would never normally get to have. Although I believe that arrangement is under threat and that the government wants the returned money to go into central funds.

In.

Tories.

Workers rights.

’nuff said

Out. Most definitely out. As the birthplace of common law and parliamentary democracy, I’m sure we are able to govern ourselves quite adequately. I hate the tories more than anyone, but there are elements that I agree with them on with regards Europe. I feel disgusting just saying it…

Out

What are the advantages and what are the disadvantages?

Is a very good point – there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed – which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

QT was generally awful on the Beeb last night apart from the Lib/Dem and Labour ladies. Worse is to come, no doubt….

In, but trending out.
For what I imagine is one of the most important decisions we need to make in a long time there is very little easily digestible information readily available- both campaigns are highly emotive but short on information.

As several of the others alluded, if you’re in, it should really be boots’n’all, otherwise I can’t really see the benefits over trade agreements. The EU is a completely different organisation to the 1970’s Common Market, and markets nowadays are far less protectionist/isolationist.

julians – Member

Out

For a moment, I read “out” and “oui” which would have been tres amusant

I am generally on the fence

However when I look at those most vocal in wanting to leave it does not make me want to join their cause.

if it ever produced a set of accounts that were audited and signed off

God not this again

It has complicated rules, they are signed off, most of the “fraud” * is done by member states not the EU and take a look at the MOD if you want to see accounts not signed off

TBH the debate is largely framed in false tabloid tropes that have been repeated so often folk actually believe them.

https://fullfact.org/economy/did-auditors-sign-eu-budget/

https://fullfact.org/europe/has-eu-budget-been-rejected-auditors-past-18-years/

* the majority is misapplication of the rules rather than genuine attempt at fraud

EDIT: tp be clear there is plenty of ammunition there to criticise the EU budget but that never signed off claim is just factually not true and said to make it appear worse than it really is. FFS its the auditors who tell us this and yet dolk say unaudited…how would we know anything if they were unaudited?

Out

On a scale of 1 to 10. (out=1, in=10) I think i’m a 7.

I reckon the benefits outweigh the problems and most of the “out” people generally seem to have pretty poor arguments, based on mis-information, racism, or things that won’t actually be solved by leaving the EU.

Take a look at the people who are so vehemently against the EU. Do they look like a sane, rational bunch, who you’d like to find yourself broadly in agreement with?

Is a very good point – there is a very real need for some sober analysis. I fear, however, that the EU referendum debate will make the Scottish referendum debate seem well-informed – which would be a massive achievement by any standards.

Indeed. I suspect we’re in for a hysterical deluge of straight banana regulations stories, the European Court of Human Rights giving terrorists 3 votes each at elections, and the EU forcing us to take the entire population of Syria and give them all a house. And a kitten.

I’m not sure which way to vote.
I’d like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.
Generally I think it’s probably a good thing though; but in need of some reforms.

Almost certainly in, but I am sympathetic with what MoreCashThanDash has to say, above.

PeterPoddy – Member

I’m not sure which way to vote.
I’d like to see some actual FACTS about the advantages and disadvantages but all I can seem to find is propaganda from one side or the other.
Generally I think it’s probably a good thing though; but in need of some reforms.

Agree with that but the rub is, will we ever get the reforms?

Hence I’m leaning slightly towards out at the moment.

The OUT campaign seems mainly to be ‘They‘ are making rules for ‘Us’ and ‘We‘ want control back.

It seems fair until you ask who ‘They‘ are and who ‘We‘ are.

We are British and They are not – actually I am English but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Britain.

Okay, We are English and They are not – Actually I am from Hampshire but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of England.

Okay, We are Hampshire and They are not – Actually I am from Southampton but get rules and controls forced on me for the benefit of the whole of Hampshire.

Okay, We are Southampton…

I guess the logical end result is that we all live as individuals with no cooperation and no joined up rules, collective responsibility etc. I guess that is why the Out campaign tends to be favored by those who have least to gain by sharing with others and most to gain by exploiting their relative strength over others.

I am sure there is a reverse argument that will pop up shortly but for the moment I am in.

It is an interesting one- We only really hear about the negatives of EU membership, promoted due to the right wing press. The headlines to do with Brussels are always sensationalist, such as a cracking headline from the Sun a few years back, about the EU wanting to band busty barmaids.

My dissertation was on ‘Europeanisation’ of Britain’s laws and policies, and in the vast majority of cases our laws and policies are in line with and in many cases ahead of Brussels. The idea the the EU controls every aspect of our lives and meddles in everything is a complete fallacy. The idea of many EU laws are standardisation between states, so we can afford the same protections in whatever state we wish to travel to.
But, that is not to say some laws are bonkers- look at fisheries for example.

It is better to be in than out. Plain and simple.

http://blogs.ec.europa.eu/ECintheUK/euromyths-a-z-index/