Engine remap question

Posted similar on pistonheads but they have so many different sub-forums the traffic isn’t nearly as much as on here, and you lot seem to know everything so…
I’m looking to buy a Mazda 6 estate, there are 2 versions of the 2l skyactiv engine, one with 143bhp and one with 163, although the 163 is only available on the “sport nav” trim which also comes with 19″ alloys (too big) and leather seats (prefer cloth) so I’m looking at the next trim down which comes with the 143bhp engine. Now I don’t want to make progress all the time but sometimes a bit of extra ummph is useful. What I’m wondering is – can I reasonably assume the 143 is a detuned version of the same engine as the 163? Remapping websites seems to think they can take both up to 175 bhp i.e. the same gains for each which seems to indicate they may be the same? I know that values from remapping sites need to be taken with a pinch of salt though. Last comment is that the engine is NA which normally don’t make a lot of gains when remapped hence again me wondering if the 143 is purposely detuned to make the sport nav more attractive.
Basically I want to have some options on the table if I buy the 143 version and feel it lacking, I don’t want to be trading it in again so if I know a remap could sort it if I feel it needs it then that would give me some reassurance.
So – what do you folk think? (Please don’t just say buy the sport nav… I’ve already decided against).

I think the key here is that a NA is pretty hard to make gainzzz on without physically changing ‘stuff’ – in your case I’d spend a bit of time on a specific mazda forum to find out more about the engines.

If it were turbo, then the different trim/power levels typically are the same engine with different tunes.
I got my Octavia 2.0 TDI remapped and it feels much smoother in it’s power delivery, and of course, is now that fastest production hatchback on the streetzzzzz…

DrP

Plan B would be to chat with someone like Celtic Tuning who do this sort of thing. The N/A thing is interesting and as DrP said, most gains are with the Turbo cars as the boost and fuelling can be changed…
I also have a 2.0Tdi remapped and it’s a better drive for it and teh fastest Caddy Maxi in our village.

I had my old NA Golf V6 4 motion remapped and got another 20 odd BHP from it – 204 up to 225 IIRC.

Did have the before and after dyno charts somewhere, probably binned by now I suspect.

They’re probably the same motor with a different map, it’s the most efficient and effective way of offering better performance in a higher spec model.

Ford do the same with the little 1.0 three-cylinder EcoBoost motor; check online and it comes as 90/123/140bhp – the two lower options are usually found in Fiestas, EcoSport and I think the Focus, the more powerful map is usually in Focus and Mondeo, although I’ve heard of EcoSport with the 140bhp map. I’d like mine done, but while it seems like an easy thing to have done, I’ve been quoted £200-odd from a tuner, I’m fairly certain that a Ford dealer won’t offer a remap cheap.

edit) Ah, missed the NA bit, which would make a difference. Just checked a remap for mine, and it’s actually 125bhp, which would go up to 145, and torque from 170Nm to 240, which is a very useful boost.

A NA engine won’t benefit greatly from a remap, regarding the two engines you mention the higher bhp motor could have a higher compression ratio. Easy for a manufacturer to do at source, expensive to replicate as an after market tune.

What I’m wondering is – can I reasonably assume the 143 is a detuned version of the same engine as the 163?

Mmm no not in my limited experience. The engine might be the same meaning block, pistons, crank etc, but other stuff isn’t – air intakes, turbo (if there is one), intercooler, downpipe, injectors, and perhaps other stuff. That’s what they did on VW TDIs, for example. Mercedes offered the same engine labelled 220 CDI and 250 CDI, with 180 and 204bhp respectively. The 220 has a single VNT turbo, the 250 has twin parallel turbos. IIRC the VAG 1.4 TSI had a turbo in the lower power configurations and a turbo and supercharger in the higher power ones. That would probably also come with a bigger intercooler.

So whist it’s not out of the question I would not assume it’s just the engine map that’s different. I’m not a fan of remapping, as a concept. Remappers and petrolheads like to think that the man is cheating them out of glorious bhp just so they can make them pay for more, but I think that remapping often results in higher stresses placed on the engine, and sometimes worse emissions.

I think the key here is that a NA is pretty hard to make gainzzz on without physically changing ‘stuff’

Aye, so if I’m reading that right it would also be quite hard to detune a NA engine as well just with a map?
I might get in touch with one of the mapping companies as suggested. Seems odd that they reckon they can take both engines up to the same amount.

regarding the two engines you mention the higher bop motor could have a higher compression ratio. Easy for a manufacturer to do at source, expensive to replicate as an after market tune.

A fair point, I’ll see if I can find out the specs.

Aye, so if I’m reading that right it would also be quite hard to detune a NA engine as well just with a map?

it would definitely be possible, just limit the throttle opening mapping.

Random thought but try it 1st…

Bhp isn’t as useful as torque.

Also some geezer with a laptop and a generic map your telling me that their better than mazda?

It’ll be na same as mine and tbf it’s the same as every non forced induction motor a bit flat and needs revs

With an NA engine its mapped for the worst case scenario- rubbish fuel in funny climates and also for emissions / economy.  A remap can give more power but its basically removing some of the safety margin and increasing emissions so advancing the spark and richening mixture.

every non forced induction motor a bit flat and needs revs

naturally asperated engines can feel the exact opposite of flat, just depends on how the valving is set up. Most modern european na car engines are set up peaky to enable headline figures, but there’s plenty of stuff out there thats NA and extremely torquey

With an NA engine its mapped for the worst case scenario- rubbish fuel in funny climates and also for emissions / economy. A remap can give more power but its basically removing some of the safety margin and increasing emissions so advancing the spark and richening mixture.

a long time ago that was the case but since the early 2000s the car engine will adjust on-the-fly for climatic and fuel conditions. There is almost no headroom on most NA engines unless they’ve been deliberately de-tuned, which is why the 163bhp version of the engine gets less than a 10% increase in power with a map (and that’s probably over-stating things to encourage sales).

Aye, so if I’m reading that right it would also be quite hard to detune a NA engine as well just with a map?

With a turbocharged engine no, not at all – just less boost and less fuel. With NA petrol – not sure. Retard ignition?

a long time ago that was the case but since the early 2000s the car engine will adjust on-the-fly for climatic and fuel conditions.

It can’t compensate for altitude. I mean, it can reduce fuelling to get the right mixture but it will lose power. We had a hired NA V8 SUV in the USA, which was fairly quick normally, although not as quick as a European V8 would have been! We cruised across the plains westwards at a steady speed and gained about 1800m of altitude without really noticing it. I then tried to overtake something on a single carriageway road, put my foot down and almost nothing happened.

On a subsequent trip, we went into the Rockies from Denver up the interstate that climbs out of the city like a plane taking off, it’s a huge long drag of significant incline. So many cars, including that of the people we were with, were labouring and slowing down as it climbed up to something like 2300m. We were driving a turbocharged Volvo and felt no effects.

As someone who has mapped multiple natasp engines… there is no scope. The fuelling is the fuelling and swinging the advance will get you the square root of FA before pinging and putting holes in your pistons.

I’ve seen dreadful tuning on tuned engines. You can always make an engine make less power but going the other way is about implying there is a fault to be fixed.

With experience you can tune an engine for full throttle based on a couple of assumptions and be within an ace of it first go. And that is it. As much power as you will ever see.

Tuning for drivability, part throttle and transients is hard. Typically these days the factory is doing it better than the aftermarket. I’ve seen dreadful work done by charlatans who get the thing on a rolling road and join the dots.

The mapping is matching the fuelling to the air ending up in the cylinders. If you’re not changing any of the physical configuration of the engine, there will be no change in the charge and no potential for power.

Everybody selling you something different is a con artist.

Any aftermarket “re-map” claiming to increase engine output will certainly exceed an engine hardware limit that the manufacturer designed for. There’s profit to be made by specifying lower strength & temperature tolerance & manufacturers will not give ths away for free. Having 30+ years experience in this game, I would never get a vehicle “re-mapped”.

Any aftermarket “re-map” claiming to increase engine output will certainly exceed an engine hardware limit that the manufacturer designed for. There’s profit to be made by specifying lower strength & temperature tolerance & manufacturers will not give ths away for free. Having 30+ years experience in this game, I would never get a vehicle “re-mapped”.

If you’re not changing any of the physical configuration of the engine, there will be no change in the charge and no potential for power

Whilst both of these is true for the highest power output version of an engine, plenty of lower end engines (both turbo and na) are simply software limited versions of the more powerful engine (either by adjusting the throttle mapping so it doesn’t open fully or limiting the boost the turbo will give). Manufacturers do this as it can be cheaper than making different hardware (in the same way that cruise control, auto lights and other things are also often software controlled).

The ford euro5 2.0 diesel was the same in every way for low and high power outputs. You didn’t even need to chip it, you can just change the output in with the ford odbc tools

I don’t seem to be able to Google whether this is the case on the op s engine but if the tuning biz can get the exact same power out of both it seems likely. The question is then can you get the OEM high power map on instead of one that’s been messed around with by some bloke in a shed

I’d speak with BBR GTi…

The 2L Skyactiv engine in the Mazda 6 is all but identical to that found in the mk4 MX-5, of which they are the oracle in the tuning world basically.

As I understand it, the 2L Skyactiv is quite an undertuned engine anyway. It’s got a pretty high compression ratio, can flow a lot of air/fuel if required. Unlike with a lot of modern turbocharged engines where they’re offered in various different states of tune for different trim levels, I believe the N/A 2L Skyactiv is just software limited in the lower versions of the Mazda 6 (though get this checked with someone like BBR), hence they can remap to the same level…

If you want more ready overtaking power though… A 2L N/A engine in a 1500+kg car will feel pretty gutless these days, and a remap isn’t going to do much to fix that! It will give it a tiny bit more power up top, but very little in the midrange where it counts… Unless there’s a very specific reason to buy the Mazda 6 with its 2L Skyactiv engine, I’d be looking at alternatives with a turbocharged engine myself if you want ready overtaking grunt.

I’m pretty sure Mazda use the same engine across the board so there is scope for more power as they deliberately restrict the lower spec cars.

As someone who has mapped multiple natasp engines… there is no scope. The fuelling is the fuelling and swinging the advance will get you the square root of FA before pinging and putting holes in your pistons.

Fair enough, it’s that the truth then I’m open to accepting it.

Any aftermarket “re-map” claiming to increase engine output will certainly exceed an engine hardware limit that the manufacturer designed for. There’s profit to be made by specifying lower strength & temperature tolerance & manufacturers will not give ths away for free. Having 30+ years experience in this game, I would never get a vehicle “re-mapped”.

So we’re saying that the 163 is a substantially different engine to the 143? Again, fair enough it may well e and I don’t know enough to tell either way.

Whilst both of these is true for the highest power output version of an engine, plenty of lower end engines (both turbo and na) are simply software limited versions of the more powerful engine (either by adjusting the throttle mapping so it doesn’t open fully or limiting the boost the turbo will give). Manufacturers do this as it can be cheaper than making different hardware (in the same way that cruise control, auto lights and other things are also often software controlled).

That’s what I was originally thinking.

The 2L Skyactiv engine in the Mazda 6 is all but identical to that found in the mk4 MX-5, of which they are the oracle in the tuning world basically.

As I understand it, the 2L Skyactiv is quite an undertuned engine anyway. It’s got a pretty high compression ratio, can flow a lot of air/fuel if required. Unlike with a lot of modern turbocharged engines where they’re offered in various different states of tune for different trim levels, I believe the N/A 2L Skyactiv is just software limited in the lower versions of the Mazda 6 (though get this checked with someone like BBR), hence they can remap to the same level…

If you want more ready overtaking power though… A 2L N/A engine in a 1500+kg car will feel pretty gutless these days, and a remap isn’t going to do much to fix that! It will give it a tiny bit more power up top, but very little in the midrange where it counts… Unless there’s a very specific reason to buy the Mazda 6 with its 2L Skyactiv engine, I’d be looking at alternatives with a turbocharged engine myself if you want ready overtaking grunt.

All good stuuf, I’ll contact them to see and appreciate the comment re NA engines in general.

The wikipedia page on Mazda’s L series engine from the MZR family lists different configurations, although it seems to be about the American market. They cite evolution of the engine including things like larger exhaust to increase breathing and generate more power, they also come in different compression ratios and with different emissions control technologies for different markets. The only reference to a 160hp version says that it’s direct injection, which is a pretty fundamental change to how it works, and also has twin variable cams.

So that suggests it’s not just software limiting the throttle opening.

What years are these cars?

NA – tuning is restricted to air filter/airbox and less restrictive exhaust. IE difficult to extract extra power.

Turbo engine – map it and mega power!

Alternatively you could just not tune an unnecessary 20 ponies and be content with the interior you want

The wikipedia page on Mazda’s L series engine from the MZR family lists different configurations, although it seems to be about the American market. They cite evolution of the engine including things like larger exhaust to increase breathing and generate more power, they also come in different compression ratios and with different emissions control technologies for different markets. The only reference to a 160hp version says that it’s direct injection, which is a pretty fundamental change to how it works, and also has twin variable cams.

So that suggests it’s not just software limiting the throttle opening.

Good googling skills.

What years are these cars?

Looking at 2015 – 2017.

I might get in touch with one of the mapping companies as suggested

make it one with their own rolling road, otherwise I wouldn’t believe much they said

IIRC there was no mechanical difference between the early 2000s NA 1.6 Mini One and the Cooper version, The One was just detuned to 90bhp to lower emissions and insurance versus the 115bhp Cooper. A software change could up the One to 115bhp as the Cooper.

Hopefully the Mazda is the same!

make it one with their own rolling road, otherwise I wouldn’t believe much they said

This. The last time my car was ‘mapped’ it was on the rolling road all morning.
Actually it could do with another session due to more modern injectors and some slight drivability niggles.
Annoyingly the place I used near me in Berkshire has gone.

Also, if one is Skyactiv it’s a radically different engine. Those things are hybrid spark ignition/compression ignition engines.

Both are termed “skyactiv”.
I’m going off the whole idea tbh.
Cars – right PITA!

It’s been an interesting discussion this even if I am losing heart.
Engines seem to have the same compression ratio and layout here –
https://www.grange.co.uk/technical-data/mazda/6/2.0-se-l-5dr-(2013-2016)
https://www.grange.co.uk/technical-data/mazda/6/2.0-sport-nav-5dr-(2013-2018)

Ah, my mistake. Skyactiv is the general name for a host of eco features from Mazda. I was thinking of Skyactiv-X which is the homogeneous charge compression ignition engine. Don’t mess with that, it’s high tech stuff.

bbrgti will be able to tell you, they tune mazdas

Cars – right PITA!

What? They get you around in comfort and luxury and can drive thousands of miles without going wrong, and that’s a pain? You’re choosing between to excellent cars, just wibbling over whether or not 140bhp is enough? You’re either young or have a short memory 🙂

Buy car, enjoy car, don’t pay someone to piss about with it.

I feel sorry for the engineers stress testing their engines in all kinds of conditions to cater for all scenarios, just for some “expert” to decide it’s not right and to recommend a remap is needed.

Alternatively you could just not tune an unnecessary 20 ponies and be content with the interior you want

What? They get you around in comfort and luxury and can drive thousands of miles without going wrong, and that’s a pain? You’re choosing between to excellent cars, just wibbling over whether or not 140bhp is enough? You’re either young or have a short memory 🙂

Two excellent points, I guess I am frustrated at my lack of decisiveness. I’d love to be the person that just buys something and doesn’t worry if there is something better, but it’s a big commitment so I really want to get it right. At the end of the day it is just something to get me around to do stuff I enjoy like riding my bike or going out with my family.

How much less mediocre are you expecting 163hp in a large family estate to be than 143hp? 😉

I agree, on day to day cars I wouldn’t bother. On something sporty that’s been deliberately hamstrung, then yes why not.

Little things like wastegates that are set to bleed boost pressure early so as not to embarrass the flagship car was happening even in the eighties.

If you really want the SRI or whatever just get that, or you won’t be happy.

just for some “expert” to decide it’s not right and to recommend a remap is needed.

That’s just not how these mass market remaps work.

Manufacturers run hundreds of engine tuning sessions to figure out exactly what’s possible in terms of economy, emissions, performance, etc. They’ll look at the results and pick the tune that best meets the needs of the market they’re aiming for, but they don’t just delete all the other data. That’s the data that becomes these remaps. It’s not some Norbert in a garage with a laptop and an ECU link tool thinking they know better than the combined might of Germany’s automobile industry. It’s some a Norbert in a garage with a laptop and an ECU link tool who has bulk-bought that data and is using it to provide cookie-cutter unofficial manufacturer tunes and charging £200+ a time.

If you’re after something sporty get an MX-5.

GF However if you just want to cruise from A to B get whatever you want.

20 horses on UK roads is worth naff all in the real world.#fcknrbrt

or spend the money on chassis tuning, and you won’t need to slow down for the corners