Employer being an ass. Advice please.

It’s the same weeks every fifth year .

Some ‘interesting’ assumptions and statements; whether or not 5 months notice is ‘reasonable’ is for the employer to determine and to describe it is unacceptable is just hot air.
The same time every fifth year is irrelevant; it’s for the employee to give the employer as much notice as practically possible to maximise their chance of getting what they want.
My earlier post covered this – talk to employer as soon as you know what you want to do even though the booking system is not open yet; it doesn’t guarantee you get what you want but it shows consideration and a mature attitude.
For the posters saying – take an extended sickie, get arsey, employer is being unreasonable etc I suggest you get real and get some understanding of how the world of work really works; have you ever run a business or managed a team?

What Frank said. Some time ago I had to get specific approval from a prison governor to approve leave for a years hence. You can’t just expect leave when YOU demand it.

It’s the same weeks every fifth year .

Oh yeah. Well there’s always next year.

So anyway, I can’t sleep thinking about this….
But it turn out there’s more.
MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.

All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she’s even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.
The bloke’s a dickhead, the chances are he’s just lost the only person that he can’t seem to do without.

Tbh I feel sympathy for you, we work 365/24 and my new shift everyone has a family and Christmas is right in the middle of our rotation, so 7 people applied and 2 will get it, there will be butt hurt all round this year

That’s not sounding good. Is there another manager she can go to?

Is the manager a TT fan by any chance???
Maybe it will be busy that week because he has a holiday booked…
(TT or otherwise)

I’d love to hear the other side of this…

TBH it sounds like more than enough notice has been given to accommodate the request, and whilst the employer is within their rights, it certainly sounds unreasonable.

Unless they know that that month/week(s) they are getting a sudden rush of work in, new big contract or something, then they know they have to accommodate leave “sometime” so might as well plan for it then.

If it really is as op portrays it, then I’d be doing what they are, looking for another job…
But I also would be (politely) giving the minimum notice possible once I found one, or before the holiday if I hadn’t and was prepared to quit.

Sounds a bit tough esp with that notice
As an employer it can be hard, I do my best to accommodate everyone’s requests but when basically your whole team want the school hols off it’s not always possible. Christmas was the same this year and I took one for the team and worked right through to free up a space for someone who has had a tough year. Saying that I did have to refuse two leave requests for summer as simply don’t have any capacity to cover what we know needs done, the requesters left it for 6 months to ask and weren’t over the moon. I can’t keep everyone happy all the time. If you rang me up I’d explain it to you and wonder why your wife can’t hold an adult conversation about it.

You need to make a plan, start a new thread called “help my wife get a new job”, because there is nothing left to discuss here.

As an employer it can be hard

Especially when you’ve made all your staff redundant and are relying on 1 person to fill in for them.
Teej with his shitty rules and regs. Stick them where the sun don’t shine – PP didn’t say “Employer breaking employment law” he said “Employer being an arse” (well, he said ass, but you know).. Where’s your great URL links to prove that wrong?

Given that notice a good manager would have been more accommodating, unless there is a very good business reason why that time is not acceptable.

It would be interesting to see their justification for repeatedly indicating that there wasn’t a problem, then denying the leave request.

DezB – loads of folk making all sorts of weird claims about the legal position and calling it “constructive dismissal” etc. Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law

I asked before but still no reply from PP – have they given her a reason for rejecting her request (such as ‘we are starting a big project that week’ or ‘x also wants to take that week and as you have had that time off every year for the last y years, it’s someone else’s turn’ or anything like that?

The law has F.A. to do with this, its about Mrs PP’ manager acting responsibly and valuing their staff.

MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.

All that was verbal with the same person thats now being an arse, but as holidays are all booked electronically she cannot book for June until her allowance is released in January. She booked 2 long weekends and this 1.5 weeks at the same time, manager sat on it for 3 weeks before saying anything.
Also, she’s even found someone to cover for her. Not her job to do that, like, but she still did.

Legally yes the manager can and does have the authoritor to refuse, but this looks unreasonable. PP id be suggesting to Mrs PP to inform her manager that she wants to escalate this.

Yes, fair enough TJ, as he also said:
“But legally, where does she stand?“

@johndoh: “We’re busy”

I’d be writing down details of the dates (if poss) when your wife informed her manager about her plans. He sounds a dick from the info presented, but you, PP, come across as very angry and that isn’t going to help resolve the situation.

Your wife should escalate this up the chain in writing.

At the very least her manager could have said, ” I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday”, or given her a reason why things have changed.

The law has F.A. to do with this

But PP also asked.

But legally, where does she stand? My guess is she can’t be fired for it

At the very least her manager could have said, ” I am sorry, we cannot gurantee you will be granted holiday”, or given her a reason why things have changed.

Yup. But maybe they did we have no idea.

Legally depends on T&Cs. Verbal or email acceptance is acceptance unless t&c states has to be via Hr system

Drac indeed

Andy – this has everything to do with the law. Manager may be acting unreasonably but, based on PP’s posts, also within the law.

PP – why does your wife not email her manager confirming their previous discussions stating that there had been no indication of a possible problem and she would like to clearly understand why there now appears to be a problem. Also state that she had tried to be fair/reasonable/considerate by making him aware of plans and it would have been appropriate for him to raise possible concerns/problems during one one of those discussions. Request manager to confirm – by email – his understanding of the discussions you refer to.
Keep it simple and focussed.
Where does manager sit in company hierarchy?
What size of company?
Do they have HR dept?
Does your wife have a ‘transferable skills set’?
How strong is the job market in your area?

..How important is your wife to the TT trip? 🙂

It could be that the manager has been trying all this time to arrange things so that Mrs PP could have that time off but things haven’t worked out. The alternative is that they could said “No” up front. That might have been clearer of course but we can’t tell from one side of the conversation.

she doesn’t get paid anywhere near what she’s worth, she’s covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary

If this is really the case then she should get another job that pays her appropriately. Why would anyone do this?

Are sure her boss isn’t trying to get rid of her?

He must realise how important this annual trip is to you both and if he refuses the leave how much this will upset your wife.

Why would he upset an employee that works for 30% of the going rate?

Money isn’t everything. Mrs PP may like the work and the company, plus there may be other factors such as convenience for home etc that are very compelling reasons for staying where you are. Sure, we would all like more cash but it is more complex than that.

It is tricky in this situation without knowing all the facts but it does seem unreasonable based on what we have heard from PP. There’s no evidence from the information so far that this is a business that has key periods that limit what leave can be taken (eg taking leave in December when working in retail, or leave in April/May when working for an accounting firm) so, on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.

on the face of it, the boss is being a bit of a ****.

Maybe he is. It’s allowed, unfortunately.

she’s covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary

So she’s showing herself to be a bit of a pushover. They maybe wonder what else they can get away with.

Has she considered escalating to HR for a formal reason if here boss won’t give her one.
I assume that she has enough nous that she’s not trying to go on holiday when theirs a major event taking place that she’s closely connected to.

she doesn’t get paid anywhere near what she’s worth, she’s covering for people earning 2-3 times her salary

This is a pretty meaningless statement- what’s ‘covering’ mean- looking after their phone while they’re on holiday, making recommendations to them, making decisions for them?

It’s very unusual in organisations to find such a salary spread (amongst permanent staff) without much of a jump in grades.

tjagain
Those links from the TUC state clearly the legal position which is that you cannot decide unilaterally when you take your holidays. The employer may well be being an arse but they are also acting within the law

Except OP’s missus had her leave verbally approved prior to spending money. That changes things quite a bit.Might have helped if it was in the OP, but never mind.

MrsPP mentioned this when we booked the ferry last June. No problem then.
She checked again at roughly the time when the bill for the ferry arrived. No problem then.
She checked again when she put the request through. No problem then.

The employer is entitled to cancel leave (which is what they have done – verbal approval is binding) but if they don’t have a good business reason for doing so then everything gets a bit murkier. Estoppel could easily be claimed and there’s a stronger argument to constructive dismissal if other options are available to the employer.

This needs escalated above the manager’s head. Could submit a grievance too.

Leave. Simple

Could submit a grievance too.

Because that always ends well. 🙄

+1

Crap idea

verbal approval is not binding when you have clear procedures in place as the company does- and anyway the “verbal agreement” is not actually agreement from my reading of the comments”

It really grinds my gears to be defending bad employers but the law here is clear and PPs wife has no grounds for any action nor has she been dealt with unfairly

I disagree, the pond is already poisoned now, and it seems to me she’s been reasonable. Sounds a bit grim now we have some details.

Given the politics she can either look for a new job or suck it up.. either way, I’d put it to HR in the frame of a formal grievance, I.e it was verbally approved by x on dates y and z and has now been withdrawn, leaving you financially out of pocket.
She’s basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.

But I appreciate she may not have the will for that.

Sorry, misread on the first page.

nor has she been dealt with unfairly

You’re probably right on the legal front, but you seriously don’t believe someone (allegedly) grossly underpaid being denied a holiday request with five months’ notice and having arranged cover is being treated unfairly? Jesus, remind me never to work for you.

Official notice period here is two weeks, but before now I’ve rung my boss at 8am and gone “can I have today off please?” and got it. Thinking about it, in all my working life I don’t think I’ve ever had leave requests rejected, not without very good reason anyway.

If I were so critical to the business that they couldn’t do without me for a few days with five months’ notice, I’d expect that to be reflected very highly indeed in my salary.

OP, in your OH’s position I’d be spending the next five months jobseeking with a vengeance. Life’s too short to work for unappreciative nobbers.

She’s basically going to have to formally call her manager out as a liar.

Unless I missed something he hasn’t lied.

The only practical, sensible solution, if she wants to carry on working there, is go and see the boss, sit down and explain the situation, how important this leave is to her and how much she will lose financially if she can’t attend.

If the boss cannot give a reasonable explanation why the leave is being denied and won’t budge, then it would be quite a clear signal that he wants rid of her.

After that go to HR and escalate but don’t expect the working environment to improve.

Start looking for another job.

I agree with cougar, I’m 100% happy to grant leave even with no notice, IF it’s doable, it’s less leave I have to worry about rostering in when it might be more tricky.

But that doesn’t look like the situation we have here…they either want her out, or she’s so operationally vital they can’t do without her..with 5 months notice.

Meanwhile Mrs PP is chatting to her friends “He is trying to drag me to the bloody TT again, he went and booked it without telling me so I’ve tried saying that I can’t get the time off work, but now I think he is going to come in and talk to my manager, what do I do?”

how do they cover her leave on the other dates?