Dope as a pain killer.

Flow nobody is telling you to stop smoking, but stop trying to believe and convince others that it’s for anything other than your need to get high.
The article you posted is a genuine account of how an active motivated lady became mad and lazy after experimenting with a cannabis habit – you follow with “complete BS”.
What’s your point exactly? Why would she lie about it?

Hugor – did you read any of the CFS thread? flow simply refuses to beleive anything he does not want to hear.

Its pointless arguing with him.

…and my shirts?

As noted above; herbal medicine that works is called medicine…

When it is shown that cannabis or one of its derivatives is useful as an analgesic, it will become one of the many options we have for pain control. The blanket silliness of those who believe it’s the best thing ever because it’s ‘natural’ because ‘nature gave it to us’ is simply laughable.

The best all round analgesic we have is derived from the opium poppy; all natural, all given by nature, incredibly well researched, incredibly well understood in terms of pain theory and in terms of use…

…and an awful long way from ‘get your mum stoned’..

Agree TJ – its hard to sit back sometimes and not react.

Tell me about it.

I think he’s passed out now 😆

CBA to read the whole thread, but from my experiences (20 years of smoking cannabis), I can honestly say I’ve never experienced any painkilling properties.

In fact to the contrary – half the time it gave me pains I didn’t know I had. At times I was psychologically dependant on it – i.e. not craving it in the same way as tobacco, but convinced I needed a ‘smoke’ nontheless.

I gave it up a while back due to a lot of the jobs I go on being subject to drug & alcohol tests. I don’t miss it one bit – on reflection (and I knew this whilst I was smoking it), apart from enjoying being whacked out of my brains, it made me jittery, nervous, lazy, lethargic and paranoid.

My mates still smoke it, but now when I’m in their company I’m happy to avoid it, rather than crave it.

The best all round analgesic we have is derived from the opium poppy; all natural, all given by nature, incredibly well researched, incredibly well understood in terms of pain theory and in terms of use…

…and an awful long way from ‘get your mum stoned’.. This is true – and speaks to the serious difficulties in developing pain medicines, really tough field. We’ve not bettered a plant alkaloid that’s been used for 1000s of years. Interstingly, there is now solid evidence that humans produce trace amounts of morphine in our bodies – amazing really, and something that’s not yet fully investigated.

All large pharma companies will have / had a cannabanoid program, many of them for pain indications. The field took a huge knock over an anti-obesity drug called rimonabant, a cb1 antagonist. Tackling obesity at the CNS level is risky – if it had worked rimonabant would literally have been a household name and then some, as there was speculation that it could be used for any addictive behaviour (smoking, gambling etc). Sadly, manipulating the brain’s reward system is a delicate business, and the drug was withdrawn with fatties reporting side-effects of severe depression and suicidal thoughts.

Indeedy…

I’ve used and experienced a goodly number; Fentanyl, Alfentanil, Remifentanil, Morphine, Diamorphine, Tramadol, Pethidine, Codeine and so on. All as medically prescribed analgesia or as an adjunct to sedation. They aren’t perfect; they all have more or less of the well known opiate side effects, but they do work extremely well as analgesics.

I’ve also, in a previous life, had a large amount of cannabis in various forms, and I know which of the two I would choose if I was in pain.

Blimey.

Some stuff I’ve seen on programmes about this:

– Don’t just buy any old dope off the street, you want mild old school weed not modern skunk
– Heavy use could precipitate paranoia and other mental problems in people who were already susceptible
– There are tons of people using it for pain relief.

I’m surprised TJ is so anti. It’s a mild and non addictive drug – if you try it a few times nothing bad will happen. It’s not an analgesic, but neither is aspirin, is it?

I’m also amazed that people are pushing the ‘it’s natural’ line. Here are some other natural things you might like to try, they must all be fine: opium, cocaine, magic mushrooms, peyote, cane toad juice, hemlock and curare.

And as has been said, pharmaceuticals cos are going through tribal medicines as fast as they can to see if there’s anything they can make money from.

Molgrips – I am not anti cannabis – I am anti bad medical advice. It simply is not an analgesic / painkiller. It can have a place as an antispasmodic, as an adjunct in pain relief and in a few other ways

Its also a very powerful drug.

Heavy use could precipitate paranoia and other mental problems in people who were already susceptible

Not known – there is a link, there are 3 hypothesis – cause, trigger, coincidence.

I do know a little about medicine, pain relief and cannabis. Flows advice is bad advice IMO – dangerously so.

I am anti bad medical advice

Me too, but that’s not how I read the thread at all. And we know it’s not an analgesic.

It seems to me (in my non medical limited experience) that it would be worth a try to someone in a desperate situation. Surely one spliff/brownie doesn’t cause instant paranoia… does it?

Surely one spliff/brownie doesn’t cause instant paranoia… does it?

I don’t know.. what do you mean by that..?
Was that comment directed at me..?
Are you in on this..?
You’re one of them aren’t you..?

Where’s Dave..?

molgrips – for example

flow – Member

“(tj) Cannabis is not a painkiller.”

Yes it is.

and several other times Flow insisted it is.

My view is that the OP has not reached the end of the conventional road yet. FM is thought by many to be largely or wholly psychosomatic and linked with various mental health issues. Giving someone who may be vulnerable mentally cannabis is bad advice IMO.

And yes – one dose may well cause (reversable) paranoia

When I was much younger I smoked a fair amount

Surely painkiller and analgesic are not necessarily the same thing..?

The word analgesic derives from Greek an- (“without”) and algos (“pain”).

I find the first spliff gives me the worst paranoia – this then abates with further use. I’m not sure about long term effects, as I am a long term user – ergo, I have no idea how I would have turned out otherwise.

I am sometimes a bit paranoid and insecure, but whether I would have been this way otherwise, who knows?

Thanks for the Greek lesson TJ 🙄

TJ – if its not a pain killer, why is it being licensed for pain?

Also opium based pain killers are no doubt more effective, they are also highly addictive and a lot worse for you. Hardly something you can use long term.

It is also an analgesic so you are wrong again (I’m starting to see a pattern here)

Tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) and some other cannabinoids, either from the Cannabis sativa plant or synthetic, have analgesic properties, although the use of cannabis derivatives is currently illegal in many countries. A recent study finds that inhaled cannabis is effective in alleviating neuropathy and pain resulting from e.g. spinal injury and multiple sclerosis.

I haven’t given any bad advice, I have shared my own experience, stated some facts, and shared some evidence.

You really are a strange chap.

THC is an analgesic in animal models of pain, and there’s no doubt that the cannabinoid receptor is important in pain pathways. Away from the lab, though, controlled trials in humans have not been positive AFAIK, with no significant analgesia being observed. I’m far from an expert myself, mind – Do you know of any successful studies?

If you have access to the literature, one clearly negative study is described here: Pain. 2003 Sep;105(1-2):79-88.

That’s taking THC under controlled conditions, as well. Smoking weed is a different story again.

Yeah smoking it is slightly different, there have been at least 85 cannabinoids isolated from the cannabis plant, restricting it to just THC is a bit, well, restrictive.

http://www.gwpharm.com/sativex.aspx

when I quit using cannabis I noticed a marked decrease in my pro cannabis evangelism.. 8)

indeed yunki indeed

Kaesae there was an interesting programme on Radio 4 this week that touched on some of the stuff you mention

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01cjwtd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochrane_Collaboration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iain_Chalmers

Sits some where between our views

Why do you think morphine, when used correctly, is addictive?

Do let me know, because it would seem you have some information/evidence that the medical profession is missing, and it might just change my practice dramatically….

DrP

Flow – you have given extremely bad advice. To suggest that someone who is probably mentally vulnerable should smoke cannabis is bad advice.

You have given no facts.

Painkiller and analgesic are synonyms

Cannabis is not an analgesic. It may have an effect on neuropathic pain. Same as it may have an antispasmodic effect and it may be a useful adjunct to analgesia in intractable and neuropathic pain. There is no analgesic effect however.

Also opium based pain killers are no doubt more effective, they are also highly addictive and a lot worse for you. Hardly something you can use long term.

Wrong. Long term usage of opiates has very little adverse effects. Unlike cannnabis

Long term usage of opiates has very little adverse effects

I see quite a few people in the city centre most days in a really bad way who would certainly prove that wrong!

AHAHAHAHAHHA!

So it isn’t an analgesic, even though there is evidence to prove otherwise?

And you think opiate based drugs are safer to use long term than cannabinoids?

There are no proven long term side effects of using cannabis.

Keep them coming Dr TJ 😆

Why do you think morphine, when used correctly, is addictive?

DrP

Where is your evidence that it is an analgesic? You have been given several studies where it is shown not to be. Show me one decent study showing it to be an analgesic.

I know opiates are safer. This is why they are widely used. one of the safest drugs – far safer than paracetamol for example.

Why do you think morphine, when used correctly, is addictive?

DrP

Because it causes psychological and physical dependence, and tolerance.

Whats your point?

TJ

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/178/2/107.full

Cannabinoids are effective analgesics in animal models with non-opiate mechanisms predominating. There are many anecdotal reports (Grinspoon & Bakalar, 1993) of benefits in bone and joint pain, migraine, cancer pain, menstrual cramps and labour.

Five small RCTs (Table 3) show that THC is significantly superior to placebo and produces dose-related analgesia peaking at around 5 hours, comparable to but out-lasting that of codeine.

http://www.neurology.org/content/68/7/515.short

Results: Fifty patients completed the entire trial. Smoked cannabis reduced daily pain by 34% (median reduction; IQR = ?71, ?16) vs 17% (IQR = ?29, 8) with placebo (p = 0.03). Greater than 30% reduction in pain was reported by 52% in the cannabis group and by 24% in the placebo group (p = 0.04). The first cannabis cigarette reduced chronic pain by a median of 72% vs 15% with placebo (p < 0.001). Cannabis reduced experimentally induced hyperalgesia to both brush and von Frey hair stimuli (p ? 0.05) but appeared to have little effect on the painfulness of noxious heat stimulation. No serious adverse events were reported.

http://www.nature.com/npp/journal/v34/n3/full/npp2008120a.html

Pain reduction was significantly greater with cannabis compared to placebo (median difference in pain reduction=3.3 DDS points; effect size=0.60; p=0.016, all completers included; Figure 4). The results were consistent for the ITT analysis (p=0.020), and for the comparison based on the first week of treatment alone (median change in DDS pain =?4.1 and 0.1 for the cannabis and placebo arms, p=0.029). There were no evident sequence effects: the degree of pain relief achieved with active cannabis did not differ significantly according to whether it was administered during the first or the second treatment week (mean reduction in DDS points, 4.1 vs 0.96; p=0.13).

Flow 0

the first is a review – the studies referred to are small scale cannabis is used as an adjunct and becuses of this the data useless

teh remaining two are neuropathic pain where I have said it is known it has an effect.

None of those show cannabis as an analgesic.

Edit no side effects?

Five small RCTs (Table 3) show that THC is significantly superior to placebo and produces dose-related analgesia peaking at around 5 hours, comparable to but out-lasting that of codeine. Side-effects were also dose-related, and consisted of slurred speech, sedation and mental clouding, blurred vision, dizziness and ataxia. Levonantradol was also superior to placebo and notably long-acting, but almost half the patients reported sedation. Cannabinoids may have considerable potential in neuropathic pain (Institute of Medicine, 1999).

stoner dude argues with medical professionals about the effects of stoners dude recrational drug of choice

Its true kids drugs really do **** up your mental faculties 8)

TJ – find me some evidence it isn’t an analgesic and we might get somewhere.

So far you haven’t contributed to the thread at all, only disagreed.

Jusnkyard – TJ is as much of medical professional as I am a “stoner”.

Ah, an interesting thread for once….

My experience, used ecstacy and speed all through the 90s rave scene….had some short term memory issues which reversed when i grew out of the scene and stopped using these drugs….also tried some mushroom and LSD trips on nice sunny days at college, fun but completely impractical for long term use….then played about with cocaine in my 20s when i was earning good money and hanging around with a dealer, no noticeable psychological side effects (that i noticed anyway)….also played about with Tramadol, very pleasant and more importantly legal which became a concern as i got older….

….one thing i have always shied away from though is cannabis use….unfortunately i’ve seen too many of my old ravey mates give up the ‘chemicals’ but continue smoking weed and to describe them as slow is an understatement….the crankiness if they didnt have a joint that morning is on a par with withdrawal from any other substance that becomes habit forming, the dulled stoned effect following a joint concerns me….some of them drive in this state which i cant abide by….but its ok, its natural they say…..seen enough people under 20 when i’m working custody duties who are literally shot away, when pressed on their drug use cannabis seems to be the common factor….in what bizarre way can anybody think that spending the day stoned is a good idea?….there will be negative side effects.
Part of the ‘harmless’ image of cannabis is that it is smoked (socially acceptable) and its natural….as others have said; heroin is natural, so is alcohol….they are also devastating if abused….the ‘natural’ argument is clutching at straws….most meds in the BNF are naturally occuring too….would cannabis users be so quick to defend the drug if it had to be intravenously injected?
Most stereotypes are stereotypes for a good reason….spending time with stoners is boring, its like being around somebody who is pissed all the time….painful and frustrating.

If you want better pain relief look at combinations of known, researched drugs….stacking things like Paracetamol, Ibuprofen and an Opioid together will often have a better effect than high doses of a singular drug.

(in my experience ecstacy used to shift a cold too….or it could have been the 12 hours in a club drinking massive amounts of water and sweating like a sprinkler….who knows?….best to pop some E’s next time i’ve got a cold though eh?…. :lol:)

usnkyard – TJ is as much of medical professional as I am a “stoner”.

I am a registered nurse with decades of experience and a fair few qualifications including post graduate courses in pain control.

You have been given several references to negative studies.

I am a registered nurse with decades of experience and a fair few qualifications including post graduate courses in pain control.

My sister is a nurse of 20 years, she knows no more than me about FS/ME/FM, let alone the effects of cannabbinoids on pain.

Its hardy something a nurse would study in depth.

You have been given several references to negative studies.

Errr, you haven’t contributed anything, as usual.

Flow.. mate

I’m quite a supporter of the movement for therapeutic cannabis use to be taken more seriously..

as far as I can see you’re not really helping.. 😕

Your right, I’m probably not. TJ has bored me to death as usual, I don’t know why I let myself get drawn into his factless debates.

Flow.

Your sister hasnt chosen to specialise in those areas then has she?

A nurse working in a pain clinic, hospice or for one of the cancer services (marie curie, macmillan etc) will know more about the subject of pain than a nurse in a ward for example.
Most NHS trusts will sponsor further education for staff if the course being requested is relevant to the job being done….just because your sister hasnt undertaken post graduate study into pain management does not mean that TJ hasnt, not all nurses do the same job, work in the same areas, have the same skills or need the same knowledge.