doctors on strike

Do you think if other graduates regularly worked the weekend and nights they would be content with putting it down as overtime and doing it for the basic salary?

The point is that the BMA are making comparisons to other graduate jobs like law, banking etc. In those jobs very long hours are also common but there is no such thing as “overtime” and there are no routine supplements and allowances.

Just wondering what grad entrants at all the naysayers places of work would get paid if they were doing similar hours/shifts/anti social hours to a typical junior doctor?

A quick fag packet calculation, based on the minimum grad starting salary at the last place i worked in the UK (£23500 last year), they’d be on about 50-55 grand. Including OT and the minimum shift bonus.

A masters or PhD would get them an extra 5-7 odd grand on basic, 10-15 by the time all the extra hours are factored in, a specialist field might get them an extra 10 grand as well.

And that’s all just to make profit and destroy the environment.

Puts junior doctors salaries into perspective.

I think new starters with a master’s degree get about 45k at my place.

The point is that the BMA are making comparisons to other graduate jobs like law, banking etc

You mean the jobs where hooray Henries get mega bonuses just to screw up the economy?

(This game of sweeping baseless generalisation is fun, isn’t it?)

BHSc will get you £21,692 after 3 years studying working for us. Of course with the massive enhancement, pension and paid overtime that translates into more like £3m in hater terms.

Re pension. Mrs FD is seriously considering coming out of the NHS Pension. How’s this for a good one. Her contribution rate will double, she will have to work longer, but the maximum pension pot she can have has been reduced by a third. So she will keep on contributing, but her pension pot will be capped.

Again no ones saying she’s going to be poor in retirement, just hardly fair.

I’m seriously toying with dropping out too… Though it’ll be an extra tax burden, I really do need to sit down and consider it.. I could have a few nice BTLs (“boo, hiss…he’s behind you..”) which would serve me well come the “F this, I’m out” years..

DrP

Who says Mr Hunt doesn’t have it in for the NHS and Doctors…

This piece by a female surgeon neatly sums up how I am starting to feel about the whole debacle:

I’m sorry, I can’t face being a doctor any more

That article is a mess, and lacking in hard fact and she doesn’t seem cut out for being a medic. (1) The bit around seeing her kids she is only saying what working mums have always battled with i.e. time to see the kids. (2) Starting an article with ‘My juniors tell me I’m an inspiration.’ is utterly beside the point. (3) ‘I have told people that they are dying. I have told a woman her child may not survive.’ That’s part of the job, not a fun bit I grant you, but what else did you expect? (4) ‘I have not eaten or drunk anything over a 13-hour period more times than I can remember.’ Really, how long does it take to grab a drink? (5) ‘I can’t afford the petrol to drive to work each day.’ Really on what ~35K salary?

What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren’t cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.

What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren’t cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.

😯

Really, how long does it take to grab a drink?

Long enough that it’s a common problem… http://www.bmj.com/content/341/bmj.c6761

What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren’t cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.

Well I’ve just realised something too.

😯 +1

LOL – I can’t even be bothered finding a troll meme picture…

It is a bit OTT.

This year every few weeks I have not seen my children for five days straight

Squaddies on far less cash don’t see their kids for months at a time. I worked shifts where I didn’t see my kids 1 week in 4. Part of being a shift worker.

50 mile commute? Get a job nearer home.

This year I have been screamed at, spat at and kicked. I have physically removed excrement from someone who needed that help.

Part of the job. I’ve been assaulted, screamed at, told people their relative has died, dealt with rotting dead bodies, worked 17 hour shifts, worked 14 12hr shifts in a row.

But if she doesn’t like the job go do something else. Life’s too short to stsy in a job you don’t enjoy.

irc – Member

50 mile commute? Get a job nearer home.

not easy when you’re on rotation, or a short term contract. you’d need to move home every 6months/year.

ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don’t know which city/county they’ll be working in a few months down the line.

but this isn’t what they’re all gnashing their teeth about, they don’t seem to really mind the long/antisocial hours, the travelling, the blah blah blah. Everything you’re asking them to deal with they are. And more.

not easy when you’re on rotation, or a short term contract. you’d need to move home every 6months/year.

ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don’t know which city/county they’ll be working in a few months down the line.

this is very true

ianad, but i know loads. They love their job, but often they don’t know which city/county they’ll be working in a few months down the line.

Reminds me of a memorable time that one of my colleagues was told that he was not staying in Carlisle for another 6 months, but was in fact being moved to Middlesbrough. 2 days[/i] in advance. He’d already signed the contract to renew the lease on his flat in Carlisle for the 6 months, and was told that it was his fault for signing it too far in advance…

dragon – Member

What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren’t cut out for being top end doctors. Men have far more time to devote themselves to the profession without the concern of looking after kids and are far less emotive.

Quite a lot of the arseholes on this forum are annoyingly canny about hiding the fact that they’re arseholes. So this is refreshing

right, just checked with my pal next to me, his girlfriend is a junior doctor.

among other things;

They’re planning to remove the restriction on how many hours doctors can be asked required to work.

(well, the restriction will still be there, but it won’t be enforced. of course it will be ignored)

working part-time will mean a Dr is no longer eligible for the anti-social hours pay-rate.

‘normal’ hours, will extend to 10pm, and Saturdays.

He’d already signed the contract to renew the lease on his flat in Carlisle for the 6 months, and was told that it was his fault for signing it too far in advance…

should have done the sensible thing and hedged his bets with a house that’s handy for Carlisle, Middlesborough, Whitehaven and Ashington – I’m sure irc will be happy to suggest somewhere.

What I have realised though from this debate is that women in a lot of cases clearly aren’t cut out for being top end doctors.

Seriously?

My local Emergency Dept has more female Consultants than male, they’re all bloody damned good too.

You should be well and truly ashamed of such comments.

should have done the sensible thing and hedged his bets with a house that’s handy for Carlisle, Middlesborough, Whitehaven and Ashington

We had exactly that problem. The missus rotation could take her anywhere from Carlisle to South Shields. They even tried to make her go to Middlesborough too, but we drew the line at that because it wasn’t in her original contract and a 2hr commute at the end of a 14 hour night shift would be suicide.

In the 3 years before I started my PhD, I spent a year commuting from Newcastle to Carlisle every day (65 miles each way) and a year commuting to Middlesbrough every day (43 miles each way). The year before I was in Carlisle, my boyfriend spent the year there instead. It’s pretty soul destroying. My boyfriend has written off 2 cars crashing after night shifts on long commutes, and I know one colleague who died in an RTA in similar circumstances.

‘I have told people that they are dying. I have told a woman her child may not survive.’ That’s part of the job, not a fun bit I grant you, but what else did you expect?

Have you ever had to do it? I bet not. It’s part of my job it’s awful, I hate it, it tears me apart inside and then I was expected to move on to another case straight after that without a break, 10 minutes to myself. Yes it’s part of my job that does not make it any easier, it’s one of the hardest and emotional things to do.

‘I have not eaten or drunk anything over a 13-hour period more times than I can remember.’ Really, how long does it take to grab a drink?

You’re pretty clueless for someone who works in healthcare from what I recall. It’s sometimes not possible for this to be done as the workloads are massive. My staff go 9-10 hours without a break and they have a break period written in. I had a crew give their break up recently as I asked them if they would due to a possible child needing resuscitation near by, they did and I can’t ever thank enough for what they did. They acted like true professionals they didn’t quibble or moan they seen it as part of their duty. It wasn’t they were on a break period which is entirely their own time.

Really on what ~35K salary?

What makes you think it’s that much, have you read any of the posts on here?

Dragon the more you post the more you reveal yourself as not being a very pleasant person but today you have stooped to a massive low.

Reading that just makes me grateful we have people like you , and your team, who do what you do.
From the bottom of my heart Thanks you ,all of you.

You’re welcome Junkyard and thank you.

On multiple occasions in my career I’ve had to watch doctors, nurses and EMT’s fight to save lives of those wounded in the most terrible ways, I’ve seen the look of desperation and failure on their faces when, no matter how hard they try they cannot save them. Yet every day they’d mount up and be prepared to fly into god knows what to try and save lives. I have never met a more dedicated, passionate, professional and selfless group of people in my life.

My point? These are not greedy capitalist, they’re people who choose medicine to selflessly help others, it’s not to much to pay them what they’re worth. Because, in my opinion, junior or not, they’re worth every damn penny.

*WARNING* Some images are NSFW
RAF MERT in action

Well-said, Moose – and those MERT teams/QAs/MAs/CMTs etc all rotate thru NHS emergency and critical care depts.

It’s notable that the editor of the BMJ is now calling out Hunt on his BS [ab-]use of stats. You won’t get a “7 day NHS” by stretching existing resources ever more thinly – gaps in care are not just a simply a matter of consultant presence, it’s the whole friggin’ team! In their effort to smash this thru, DoH are – pointedly – ignoring the realities of acute care.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-34598335

Jeremy Hunt, who believes in nothing but his own advancement, is something worse. He is a cynical fool.

How did this mendacious creep end up as SoS for Health? (I know, I know…).

How did this mendacious creep end up as SoS for Health? (I know, I know…).

It was a tough call finding someone even more spineless and totally “for sale” than Lansley but they did it!

Btw if anyone is not feeling cross enough, google what Lansley’s new job is. But don’t worry. He has undertaken a solemn promise not to use his considerable inside knowledge and experience as former SoS for health for at least two years so we can all sleep easy on that completely predictable career move.

“right, just checked with my pal next to me, his girlfriend is a junior doctor.
among other things; They’re planning to remove the restriction on how many hours doctors can be asked required to work.”

This is complete nonsense and reflects the fact the BMA have obfuscated the actual proposals in order to increase public support / leverage on NHS employers.

The National Doctors and Dentists Review body have made it very clear that the maximum number of hours in any one week (including overtime and being on call) will be reduced from 90 to 72 – it’s here in black and white:

http://www.nhsemployers.org/~/media/Employers/Documents/Pay%20and%20reward/Post%20report%20DDRB%20guidance.pdf

In addition to the legal safeguards the working time regulations (WTR) provide, NHS
Employers proposed:
— an absolute limit on weekly hours of 72
— no shift to exceed 13 hours
— no more than five consecutive long days or four consecutive night shifts
— no doctor to be on duty for more than seven consecutive on call periods

The analysis by NHS Employers (amongst other things the NHS Employers negotiating team includes Doctors) is here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/213214/FINAL-PDF-revised-for-DH.pdf

The latest update from the NHS Employers negotiating team says:

“We are incredibly disappointed that [the BMA] continue to stand by their decision to walk away from the talks. We firmly believed that by working together we could have ensured safer working hours for doctors in training, as well as provided them with the stability of pay and agreed work schedules that took account of their educational commitments and needs.”

The BMA aren’t willing to even talk to NHS Employers and are just using us / the public to negotiate by social media.

http://www.nhsemployers.org/your-workforce/pay-and-reward/national-negotiations/q-a-on-the-new-junior-doctor-contract-proposals#1

I love the fact you cite the employers and then accuse other of bias

Have you read the way they answer questions- its like reading PR speech from a spokesperson.

for example

Will individual doctors get a pay cut?

While average earnings will stay the same, redistributing pay from an unfair system to a fairer one does mean that some people who are disadvantaged by the current rules will see their overall earnings go up, while some who are currently advantaged will see their earnings go down

the answer is yes some will get a pay cut. The rest is the type of BS obfuscation you would be moaning about were it not for the fact it suits your agenda

Oh the irony.

just5minutes – Member

This is complete nonsense … it’s here in black and white:

as isn’t the rest of what i wrote.

restrictions will still in place, but the penalties for breaking them are being removed.

ie. the restrictions can be flouted without repercussion.

it’s hardly a leap to suggest that they will be flouted – it will almost be necessary.

The BMA’s position of the Working Time Regulation:

DDRB Recommendation 17: “The wording on contractual safeguards in Schedule 3 of the draft contract should be strengthened to a mandatory requirement to comply with the requirements of Working Time Regulations or any successor legislation”

What this means:

The end of banding safeguards, without an alternative to prevent unsafe hours or ensure you are paid when shifts overrun.
The banding system provides an effective penalty for employers against fatiguing and unsafe working patterns by giving them a financial interest in planning rotas and staffing wards properly. The Working Time Regulations provide broadly weaker protections than existing banding thresholds, with shorter and less frequent rest, and without an enforcement mechanism that has an immediate impact for juniors. They exist in addition to, not instead of, your contractual entitlements.

The BMA was willing to negotiate on a system of pay based on hours, rather than according to pay bands – but only so long as it provided sufficient protections and still meant pay for hours actually worked, not just pay for scheduled hours.

The work review process proposed by the DDRB provides no payment for overtime, no financial incentive for employers to prevent your duties from overrunning, and no reassurance that it can work robustly to protect juniors from unsafe working conditions. The DDRB’s alternative to banding safeguards is to more clearly oblige employers to follow the law on the Working Time Regulations, which provide weaker protections than banding currently does. This is important, but not a sufficient protection on its own.

TL;DR; ? They want to remove the financially enforced restrictions and replace them with non-financial restrictions that won’t be checked as carefully and allow for fewer breaks.

just5minutes – Member
This is complete nonsense … it’s here in black and white:

And here’s another version. In black and white.

http://m.bma.org.uk/news-views-analysis/the-bma-blog/2014/october/ten-reasons-why-the-juniors-contract-talks-stalled

I had no idea just how dishonest and deceitful people in the medical professions were until I read just5minutes’s posts.

I don’t think I’ll ever trust what a doctor tells me again.

What I don’t understand though, is why junior doctors aren’t welcoming with open arms this great new deal offered to them by Jeremy Hunt which promises them more money for less work?

Still, I’m sure that just5minutes has a very logical explanation for this puzzling state of affairs.

a very logical explanation

Given just5min’s claim that the objections represent “complete nonsense”, I am also puzzled by his silence.

So earlier this evening there was a debate in the Commons about the Junior Doctor contract.

Jeremy Hunt didn’t think it was worth his time staying to the end…

There he goes.

Cheers DrDeath for the pic.

oh my the medics at work will be unimpressed at this one!