doctors on strike

Yep, and Mr Hunt clearly skipped the bit in the paper that said “to assume they are avoidable would be rash and misleading”

This is from the ”Letters for the NHS” Facebook feed, I thought it deserved a wider audience.

Read it and tell me that doctors are just being greedy:

Dear NHS,

Death is an inevitable part of my working relationship with you.

Sometimes, dear NHS, there has been nothing I could do before it was too late. Nothing I could do would save the 14 year old girl brought in cold and blue having hung herself in her bedroom with no warning that she had reached the end of her abilities to cope with life. Nothing I could do would save the 8 week old baby whose meningococcal rash spread rapidly before my eyes as the antibiotics failed to take hold quickly enough to prevent her succumbing to overwhelming infection, just as her parents were getting to know her. Nothing I could do would save the 20 year old whose neck expanded in front of me as he bled to death from injuries sustained in a traffic accident. Nothing I could do would save the 65 year old who had worked hard in industry from the age of 14 but whose occupation slowly and irreversibly destroyed his lungs as he daily inhaled dust that would eventually result in him slowly suffocating. Nothing I could do would save my colleague who I was crash called to resuscitate after he chose to take his own life whilst on his nightshift. Nothing I could do would save my grandfather whose restricted mobility, due to injuries sustained as a Japanese prisoner of war, resulted in multiple blood clots that would eventually kill him. Nothing I could do would save many of the other patients I also cared for as a junior doctor and whose faces, at times, still haunt my dreams.

But despite their deaths, and my lack of ability to prevent them, you, dear NHS, fought and provided for each and every one of these patients and their families. You provided counselling and support for the parents of the 14 year old without asking if they could afford to pay for you to help them understand, and come to terms with, what had happened. You provided trained paramedics who administered what they hoped would be life saving antibiotics to the sick baby as soon as they arrived at the house, and who didn’t ask for the parents’ credit card details first. You provided a helicopter to airlift the 20 year old to hospital in order to give him at least a chance of surviving, and a doctor to travel with him and look after him all the way – without wondering whether his family would have adequate insurance to cover it. You provided medications to try and keep the 65 year old comfortable as he desperately tried to suck air into his lungs, and oxygen to make it as easy as possible. You provided a specially trained nurse to talk him and his family through what was to come and to help them cope, and when they could no longer manage you provided a hospice bed and staff to reassure and comfort him and his family as he lived his last days. You never sent them a bill as they grieved his loss. You provided support to the family of the doctor who had given so much to you but could not take any more and ensured that his children were at least financially provided for as they faced a very different future. You sent district nurses regularly to tend to my grandfather’s wounds and provided all the equipment and dressings he needed. When a large blood clot finally made him much sicker, you provided a bed in a community hospital just down the road where my grandmother could visit him daily. You enabled his GP, who knew him well, to continue to look after him locally rather than sending him somewhere where he knew no one. He passed away peacefully thanks to you.

But now, dear NHS, it is you who are dying and my heart breaks as much for you as it has for each one of my patients and their families. Just as so many of the dying days of my patients have kept me awake at night, now I lie there wondering just what else I can do to save you, and I’m struggling to come up with answers. I know my colleagues feel the same, but we keep on doing our best to fight for you because we, and the rest of the world, recognise just how good you are. Day to day our calls for help to resuscitate you seem to fall on deaf ears. No one seems to hear us or want to come to your aid. No one seems to want to provide the funding for the staff so desperately needed to keep you alive.

Some people seem determined to push you to your final breaking point by taking up your precious time with things that you were not designed to deal with – they make more and more inappropriate demands of you. Many even seem to want to let you die. But not in a good way. There is no hospice care for you. No planning for what will happen when you’ve gone – just a hope that you will slip away quietly without anyone noticing your demise and without any thought for ‘what next?’ Who will look after and take care of those you’ve left behind?

Dear NHS, it is you who now keeps me awake at night. It is you that I want to be able to save because you do so much for all of us even though we don’t always acknowledge or recognise it. I love that you are indiscriminate in your care, providing for the last, the least and the lost in exactly the same way as you do for the great and powerful. I know we’ll miss you when you’re gone and I fear for my family, friends and patients in a world without you. But, dear NHS, I’m running out of ideas as to how to save you and I know I can’t do it alone.

Dr Jo Kirkcaldy

Some people seem determined to push you to your final breaking point by taking up your precious time with things that you were not designed to deal with

Hmm, can’t work out if she is referring to management, internal markets and budgeting… Or fertility treatment, cosmetic surgery and sex changes?

Or fertility treatment, cosmetic surgery and sex changes?

You mean treatments to improve people’s health and well-being?

Or fertility treatment, cosmetic surgery and sex changes?

She could also, and I’d say this is more likely, mean the use of front line medical staff as a proxy for underfunded social and community care services and the traditional social structures which are eroding with time.

Some people seem determined to push you to your final breaking point by taking up your precious time with things that you were not designed to deal with

Hmm, can’t work out if she is referring to management, internal markets and budgeting… Or fertility treatment, cosmetic surgery and sex changes?

If Dr Jo is who I think she is, then she’ll be railing against people who are in her wards when they should be cared for at home. If the beds weren’t blocked because of a lack of social care funding then the NHS would be going along just fine.

If the beds weren’t blocked because of a lack of social care funding then the NHS would be going along just fine.

So we need to take money off the NHS and put it into social care? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Tell me, what do you think would be the reaction of the nurses unions and opposition parties if they did that?

lemonysam – Member
Or fertility treatment, cosmetic surgery and sex changes?
She could also, and I’d say this is more likely, mean the use of front line medical staff as a proxy for underfunded social and community care services and the traditional social structures which are eroding with time.

I agree. I ended up in A&E Monday night after my surgery, seems general anaesthetics don’t get on, anyhoo.
In the next bed to me was a homeless woman. She was there when I was admitted, throughout the night all I could hear was her refusing treatment, obviously to get a bed for the night.

Eventually she left, but then no more than an hour later called an ambulance from the train station she was sleeping in and was re-admitted. The A&E staff were suitably frustrated and again struggled to get her to allow any examinations. I was discharged around 0400 and it was still ongoing.

But there is no other option at that time in the morning to assist them with situations like this.

ninfan – Member – Block User
So we need to take money off the NHS and put it into social care? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Why is it either/or?

so they are getting their unsocial hours moved towards the what the rest of sociaty have then. I start work at 4am and work every second weekend, I don’t get extra for working unsocial hours.

Well, towards what you have.

Why is it either/or?

Because if he had said that then he couldn’t keep the argument going.

so they are getting their unsocial hours moved towards the what the rest of sociaty have then

You think “the rest of society” regard 7am till 10pm Monday to Saturday as normal work hours?

Peak rush hour times would suggest otherwise.

I start work at 4am and work every second weekend

And do you honestly consider that “normal social hours”? Is your 3am commute pretty busy then?

You think “the rest of society” regard 7am till 10pm Monday to Saturday as normal work hours?

Peak rush hour times would suggest otherwise.

And do you honestly consider that “normal social hours”? Is your 3am commute pretty busy then?

no, its not “normal” social hours but I did accept the job knowing that. 9-5 isn’t a standard working day anymore and sundays are no longer days of rest. When I worked in a lab I didn’t get paid extra for working more hours or working weekends or having to do 24 hour experiments.

Sorry I just don’t feel bad for junior doctors loosing a bit of cash.

p.s my morning commute is a 5 mins walk, I’m still sleeping at 3am 😉

I did accept the job knowing

That is the keyword. If your employer changed your conditions so you worked longer for less money would you just say “Hey ho! It’s Ok other people get paid just the same.”

So we need to take money off the NHS and put it into social care? Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Tell me, what do you think would be the reaction of the nurses unions and opposition parties if they did that?

Depends how it’s done to be honest. How do you suggest they do it?

My idea is something like this – take all of the funding away from Social Care that is related to providing care homes, residential homes, nursing homes, packages of care etc and give it to the NHS to spend. The NHS can then provide those services and not the private sector.

My feeling on this is that doctors provide an almost pivotal role in most of our lives and deserve our support in that. And part of that is the financial rewards. Yes they signed up for a very hard job requiring a lot of sacrifice but the payback was a certain level of monetary return.

Would i want a completely overworked, stressed out doctor who has had minimal sleep in the last 4 days making life and death decisions for me or my family. Not a chance. Reward them for exactly what the are and the service they provide.

We all seem to be pretty aware that the NHS is headed towards a level of privatisation, and it appears that nobody wants this. So what apart from voting for another political party can we do about it.Serious question.

Do we really want the type of care you get in the US where every single part comes with a very hefty price tag.

That is the keyword. If your employer changed your conditions so you worked longer for less money would you just say “Hey ho! It’s Ok other people get paid just the same.”

they change the numbers we have to achive all the time and they do change contracts. you have the choice to accept them or not. The doctors aren’t getting paid less though are they as the basic wage isn’t changing as its only the overtime and extra cash they can get is. It sucks but life sucks so if they don’t like it change job or move country.

or, don’t change the system to make it more sucky.

most other people are having to suffer pay cuts in real terms so what makes doctors any different?

Why is it either/or?

Because if he had said that then he couldn’t keep the argument going.

Nonsense – the reason its not either/or is because theres no point keeping things that we don’t need – like how the penny pinching bastards closed all the TB sanatoriums!

Your game is incredibly poor today.

Nonsense – the reason its not either/or is because theres no point keeping things that we don’t need

Define need for me please.

There’s plenty things that people ask the NHS for when they dont really need it. Blame the patients, not the NHS.

There’s plenty things that people ask the NHS for when they dont really need it. Blame the patients, not the NHS.

I am the first to agree on that being a really important discussion that needs to be had.

The doctors aren’t getting paid less though are they as the basic wage isn’t changing as its only the overtime and extra cash they can get is.

That “overtime” isn’t optional. Those shifts are part of their contract.

if they don’t like it change job or move country.

They can. And that would be a disaster for the NHS. No one wants that (except possibly those trying to break the system so they can privatise it).

Fortunately many doctors are committed to the principle of social health care.
And others don’t fancy giving up a job they have trained their entire adult lives for.

most other people are having to suffer pay cuts in real terms so what makes doctors any different?

For one thing “most other people” don’t have the government pretending it is actually a pay rise and misleading the public about the hours that they already do.

Likewise most people’s pay banding doesn’t also serve as the financial safeguard that protects them from unusually long and unsociable hours, and by extension protects the safety of their “customers”.

Likewise most people’s pay banding doesn’t also serve as the financial safeguard that protects them from unusually long and unsociable hours, and by extension protects the safety of their “customers”.

Surely the European working time directive does that?

instead of acting like a bunch of petulant teenagers threatening to ago on strike, why don’t the junior doctors just collectivley withdraw their working time opt-outs?

According to the BMA the Working Time Regulations aren’t nearly as effective as the current system and could see doctors only being entitled to one twenty minute break in an eleven hour shift.

instead of acting like a bunch of petulant teenagers threatening to ago on strike, why don’t the junior doctors just collectivley withdraw their working time opt-outs?

So rather than debating and voting on carefully considered industrial action they should just act unilaterally and pull the rug from the very health service that they are trying to protect?? How is that less “petulant”?

That “overtime” isn’t optional. Those shifts are part of their contract.

how can it be overtime if its part of their contract? (actual question)

Likewise most people’s pay banding doesn’t also serve as the financial safeguard that protects them from unusually long and unsociable hours, and by extension protects the safety of their “customers”.

at least they get paid for it. lots of jobs are salaried and you dont get overtime. when I worked in science I got paid the same wither I worked 20 hours or 50 hours.

how can it be overtime if its part of their contract? (actual question)

Because it is not overtime.

Contrary to what Jeremy Hunt tells you, the NHS is 24/7 and requires doctors working shifts to cover all hours.

Their current contract recognises that shifts at anti-social hours are, well, anti-social so it adds additional pay bands for junior doctors whose current position means they are working a lot of those shifts.

So the government’s “plan” to afford its “new” 24/7 NHS is to massively penalise the doctors providing the current 24/7 NHS, call it a pay rise and then pretend to be incredulous at the “greedy doctors”.

at least they get paid for it. lots of jobs are salaried and you dont get overtime

It’s not a race to the bottom.

Some other jobs are shit so their job should be shit too is not a good argument.
Their job is shit enough!

(and I say that as someone sat alone in an office at 9pm on a Saturday working unpaid overtime)

<Oops, sorry, late to the party>

Poah ‘overtime’ means normal work really. Standard full time posts are 48 hours a week – which in reality usually means 50-60. Depending on specialty weekends are 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 where you usually do three thirteen hour days or nights fri to sun with normal week either side.

100 hour weeks of nights although not common still happen as ‘standard hours’ so it is in effect overtime but not optional.

Doctors get paid fairly well but being expected to work those kind of hours, and if JH gets his way more weekend/late night working and a pay cut of up to 30% is a bit of a joke.

when I worked in science I got paid the same wither I worked 20 hours or 50 hours.

Yeah, well, me too. But when I was tired and made a mistake, I got a calculation wrong, or my programme crashed. Nobody died.

Or they do the Mash.

The monster mash?

I think the “hunt effect” thing is pretty fascinating tbh. People say that politicians and the press can’t strongly influence public opinion but here’s evidence that by just repeating the same lie about the 24 hour NHS over and over, Hunt has convinced people so thoroughly that they’re actually putting their health in jeopardy.

It’s a new and exciting way for a secretary of state for health to kill people. Got to hand it to the man, he’s innovative. I wonder if they saw this coming, with hindsight it’s pretty inevitable, if you lie about the service available people won’t use it. What’s next?

(and I say that as someone sat alone in an office at 9pm on a Saturday working unpaid overtime)

And also having now returned home to find my wife sat in front of the PC also doing unpaid overtime, working on her Junior Doctor ePortfolio. It’s nearly 1am. I’m in bed. She’s still working. The kids will be up a half six. 🙁

The monster mash?

Do the Mash!

It is pretty fascinating tbh. People say that politicians and the press can’t strongly influence public opinion but here’s evidence that by just repeating the same lie about the 24 hour NHS over and over, Hunt has convinced people so thoroughly that they’re actually putting their health in jeopardy.

Unfortunately it is not a new game. To quote Nye Began “How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political freedom to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century.”

Yeah, well, me too. But when I was tired and made a mistake, I got a calculation wrong, or my programme crashed. Nobody died.

I could quite easily kill someone or myself in the lab if I was tired and made a mistake.

It’s not a race to the bottom.

Some other jobs are shit so their job should be shit too is not a good argument.
Their job is shit enough!

thats not what I said.