doctors on strike

My point was to the post that they should be getting more money, as doctors have the most important job in the world. When people say this it is unhelpful as clearly they are nothing without the multidiscipline teams around them.

TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

clearly they are nothing without the multidiscipline teams around them.

Indeed all those years of training and expertise gained is basically nothing.

What you said was stupid and to continue to justify it is just to continue being stupid

Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

Cleaner is to busy to do the scan.

TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

Here are some genuine reasons people have been to their GP –
“Can you settle a marital dispute? My wife thinks paracetamol is better, I think ibuprofen is. Who’s right?”
“I have sneezed twice in the last hour”
“I have a scratch on my arm” (tiny 2 millimetre scratch. No infection).
“My child has turned blue” -the child had blue dye on him from a duvet cover which had not yet been washed.
Two emergency appointments for a cold sore. The first to tell the patient the diagnosis, the second (later that morning) because the grandmother (a nurse) disagreed with the original diagnosis.
Out of hours prescription request for skin emollient (like a moisturiser).
Patient called 999 and attended A&E because they had broken a FALSE fingernail.
Man requesting a contraceptive pill
“My child smells like yeast….”
“My poo smells this morning and it doesn’t normally” with said excrement wrapped in tinfoil in a carrier bag.
Etc etc

My point was to the post that they should be getting more money, as doctors have the most important job in the world

Now is a good point to repeat that they are NOT striking for more money.

They are striking to stay on the same money they signed up for and, more importantly, to prevent the removal of the safeguards that currently protect them from working stupid hours.

Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

For the same reason that you can’t get your electrician to also do the bricklaying, or get your lawyer to fix your car?

TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

Because he/she is a GP, not a pediatrician/gynocologist/midwife or whoever it is that does the scans (I don’t have kids). Otherwise, what’s the point in specialists.

And have you any idea how much imaging equipment costs? And then you’d need radiologist to operate it, and examine the images.

Last time I went to one of those provincial health care centers in spain they X-rayed me, gave me a big shot of morphine, put my broken arm in a slab, then had to call an ambulance to take me to the actual hospital as they couldn’t do any more. Which actually made it far worse (by the time I got there the bones had dislocated as well). It was a waste of time (and money) and I’d have been better off dragging myself down to A&E, avoiding the complications and subsequent operation, probably avoiding breaking it twice again (the plate contributed to them).

There probably are some things GP’s could do, but then we’d need more GP’s, and a) that cost money, b) there’s already a shortage of junior Dr’s training to be GP’s.

They are striking to stay on the same money they signed up for and, more importantly, to prevent the removal of the safeguards that currently protect them from working stupid hours.

FactCheck doesn’t wholly agree

As far as we can see, no one will lose immediately because the government is offering “pay protection” for anyone who would potentially see their pay cut thanks to the changes.

FactCheck

Neither side is covering themselves in glory.

FactCheck doesn’t wholly agree

From that same site –

“We should note though, that the promise to protect current pay only lasts until 2019, and we don’t know what will happen after that.”

We can only speculate about what happens in 2019.

Yeah Jeremy Hunt’s last minute letter tried to avoid the strike by offering a classic Prisoner’s Dilemma that basically said: “Agree to this contract and we’ll protect your pay and it’ll only be the ones signing new contracts that suffer”

Three problems with that, apart from the general morality.

Firstly he only offers three years of protection. Secondly Junior Doctors rotate to different hospitals every six months, so they’d soon be required to sign new contracts anyway. Thirdly it does absolutely nothing to address the issue of the removal of financial safeguards that protect them from stupidly long hours.

FactCheck doesn’t wholly agree

FactCheck doesn’t wholly check facts, it would appear. If I was purporting to offer a national “fact” service I’d do a bit more than briefly get the YTS lad to scan the websites of the 2 sides

7 day NHS working is coming, whether or not it’s actually a solution to anything. Many departments/disciplines are being railroaded into it; the docs are just lucky that they have a union with a bit of a backbone.

Neither side is covering themselves in glory.

Is that the best example of the BMA not covering themselves in glory that you could find?

Two emergency appointments for a cold sore.

As an aside, I once had an emergency appointment for a cold sore. Get one on your eye and it can permanently damage your vision. My GP immediately referred me to the eye hospital.

Get one on your eye and it can permanently damage your vision.

Oh god that sounds unpleasant…

Oh god that sounds unpleasant…

I should add that it turned out to be an infected scratch, which cleared up with antibiotic cream. My GP was concerned because I had a cold sore on my lip at the time.

From my initial phone call about it, I had a phone consultation, GP examination, referral to the eye hospital, diagnosis, prescription and back at work in 2 hours. God bless the NHS!

point to repeat that they are NOT striking for more money.

To be fair, it’s easy to get the wrong idea. The headline on BBC radio 4 news at 6 yesterday was that doctors had voted to strike having rejected an 11% pay rise. They may as well get just5min to write the news for them.

Is that the best example of the BMA not covering themselves in glory that you could find?

I haven’t really tried, I just happened to come across it so posted it here as it presents a more nuanced picture than either side presents. This is hardly surprising and is common in disputes. The sooner both sides sit down rather than wage war through the press the better. However they don’t even seem to be able to agree on how to go about that. So I am pretty comfortable with my view that neither side is covering themselves in glory.

The sooner both sides sit down rather than wage war through the press the better. However they don’t even seem to be able to agree on how to go about that. So I am pretty comfortable with my view that neither side is covering themselves in glory.

I’ve only got a bit of an overview into this but I’m pretty sure there’s something like 23 points on the new contract and the government will not negotiate over 22 of them, something like that. I think the BMA ae happy to talk but they’ve not really been given the opportunity.

Funny how hearing some of the guys in the office grumbling about junior doctors pay. They’ll be the same ones come Monday grumbling that their football team needs to be paying players more than £50K per week to attract better talent.

Those on here decrying doctors have obviously never needed them. I fully support their cause.

Just had lunch with junior doctor in genito urinary medicine
the closures of the already oversubscribed clinics across london sound like a really really bad idea, but sexual health is now the problem of local councils (responsibility for Public Health was transferred over to them earlier this year) and considering the cuts theyve had to make, her advice was basically dont have sex with anyone in the next few years, theres gonna be and STD explosion!

and get private health cover or your screwed anyway.

TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site.

Are you Jeremy Hunt?

This is exactly what JH wants to do, well this or break the NHS down in to bite sized parts that make it easier to sell of to the private sector. Google Vanguard to learn more.

Having an Ultrasound Machine in every GP practice with a trained radiographer is indeed a wonderful idea. However that would bankrupt the NHS overnight and financially makes no sense unless people are prepared to contribute much more to the NHS.

So far the feedback coming back from Vanguard is that care in the community is going to cost billions more (no shit Sherlock) + that patient feedback is that they do not want to attend a clinic or have an elective operation on a Sunday morning.

I’ve only got a bit of an overview into this but I’m pretty sure there’s something like 23 points on the new contract and the government will not negotiate over 22 of them, something like that. I think the BMA ae happy to talk but they’ve not really been given the opportunity.

Which the government deny – Letter from Hunt to JD Chair

It is all claim and counter-claim and rather unedifying.

Well, not exactly. He repeats his threat to impose a contract if things don’t turn out his way. What sort of negotiation is that?

What’s really unedifying is Hunt misquoting statistics – basically lying – to support his position.

Well, not exactly. He repeats his threat to impose a contract if things don’t turn out his way. What sort of negotiation is that?

A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.

That letter says : “As you know many of recommendations will be welcomed by juniors” (true, and many of them won’t be) “It is not unreasonable after three years to need to move forward with the new contract without the threat of BMA veto.” (so not actually up for negotiation then, despite what he says).

The BMA now want to get ACAS involved and Hunt is currently refusing that too.

To be fair, it’s easy to get the wrong idea. The headline on BBC radio 4 news at 6 yesterday was that doctors had voted to strike having rejected an 11% pay rise.

Seems to me this is a very deliberate tactic. Steer the debate away from patient safety concerns, steer it towards money, publicise them rejecting the “11% pay offer” (without acknowledging that it is actually a pay cut), push the “greedy doctors want more money” line and leave it to the struggling Joe Public to be outraged that these filthy-rich doctors want more than 11% when the rest of us haven’t had a pay rise in years.

A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.

Fair enough, looks like I’m moving to Scotland, abroad or even Wales 😯

Which doctors are going to be left working in the NHS in England?

Why won’t they meet with him ?

Why won’t they meet with him ?

The BMA has offered to go to independent arbitration. The government has refused.

A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.

FWIW i am prepared to discuss with my kids their bed time but my line in the sand is that it the time I decide based on evidence i already have ..I cannot be any fairer than that can I
Its not normal to offer a negotiation whilst saying you will impose it. Its not a negotiation is it it is just a discussion where they attempt to persuade you and will do it anyway if you continue ot disagree.

Yeah but why won’t they meet with Hunt ? Wouldn’t you do that first ?

Yeah but why won’t they meet with Hunt ? Wouldn’t you do that first ?

Sorry but this is nicked from another source.

The junior doctors I spoke to believe a strike is unavoidable because Jeremy Hunt has not allowed room for negotiation. This is not a rash decision: the BMA and the government have been discussing the junior doctor contract since 2012, but no satisfactory progress has been made and there has been a lack of meaningful negotiation. The Doctors’ and Dentists’ Review Body, who are advising the government, have recommended 23 changes to the contract. However, the government have informed the BMA that 22 of these are “non negotiable”. The BMA has repeatedly said to the government that they would return to the negotiation table if there was more than one recommendation to negotiate.

Yeah but why won’t they meet with Hunt ?

They will – with ACAS mediating. Clearly there is an issue of trust on both sides, so I can’t see why the government is refusing, if they are serious about negotiations without pre-conditions.

Seems to me this is a very deliberate tactic. Steer the debate away from patient safety concerns, steer it towards money,

Sure – that is *unt’s tactic, but why is the BBC using it as their only description of the dispute?

However, the government have informed the BMA that 22 of these are “non negotiable”.

And so the circle becomes complete.

And so the circle becomes complete.

Ah, you have had the light bulb moment where you now understand why doctors have been unhappy. Its not just about docs taking a pay cut, it is also about patient safety 💡

A fairly normal one, he is setting out his red line.

So they’re not preconditions, they’re just his red lines which he won’t negotiate on? And that’s ok?

Which Witch doctors are going to be left working in the NHS in England

FTFY

dragon – Member

TBH we should be doing more minor work at GP surgeries. Was in Spain they had a pharmacy, gp surgery, physios etc all on one site. It would also help to bring ultrasound, x-ray etc out and then reduce hospital load. Why can’t a pregnant mum get an ultrasound at her local gp?

It doesn’t make sense to distribute everything but I got most of my physio for my busted hip in my local GP surgery. The GP surgery at my workplace has a pharmacy facility. No doubt it could happen more but it does happen.

But ultrasound and xray? Centralising gets the hardware and expertise where it’s needed and where we get the most use out of it, doesn’t make any sense to put expensive kit in GPs surgeries if it doesn’t get used enough.

kimbers – Member

Just had lunch with junior doctor in genito urinary medicine
the closures of the already oversubscribed clinics across london sound like a really really bad idea, but sexual health is now the problem of local councils (responsibility for Public Health was transferred over to them earlier this year) and considering the cuts theyve had to make, her advice was basically dont have sex with anyone in the next few years, theres gonna be and STD explosion!

Aye. But of course, there’s no NHS cuts… First you cut the thing from the NHS, then you cut it. As if that were any ****ing different.

So they’re not preconditions, they’re just his red lines which he won’t negotiate on? And that’s ok?

The 23 recommendations aren’t preconditions, but any solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS – that is two different things – you only have to look the recommendations (pages x and xi) to see that most of them deal with things that aren’t mission critical to such as result, so it is not the same thing.

any solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS

“Junior doctors already work seven days and are the backbone of medical care in hospitals at weekends and at night.”
— Jeremy Hunt in his letter to Junior Doctors

mefty – Member

any solution they come to must allow the creation of the 7 day NHS

Which is tricky, because first they’ll have to abolish the existing 7 day NHS to make that possible.

Hey, is this a good time to mention the Hunt Effect again?
http://www.bmj.com/content/351/bmj.h4596/rr-52

But it already is a 7 day NHS!how can people still not see that?
Too slow, see above 🙂