[Closed] Different Steed but Strangely Familiar Arguments

"Shouldn't be on the roads"

They shouldn't be, though.

Okay, I'll bite. Why is that then?

bongohoohaa

They shouldn't be, though.

Why?

They shouldn't be, though.

You realise why we have roads, yes?

Oh, I can't be bothered. Obvious troll is obvious.

They're a half ton mode of transport that the rider is not in full control of.
It's akin to me going for a spin in a Caterfield after four or five pints.

Okay, I'll bite. Why is that then?

It's the poop.

You realise why we have roads, yes?

No.

I grew up riding horses (but haven't ridden in 15yrs) and whilst I find drivers are worse to me when I'm on a bike, it would still be pretty bad when you're on a horse.
Feeling the animal tense under you when you hear a revving engine can be a horrible experience. Not knowing if it's going to bolt, throw you off or just tense up then relax is made even more worse when you're on an unfamiliar horse.

They shouldn't be, though.

given the comprehensive bridlepath network we have in this country there's no need 🙄

You realise why we have roads, yes?

Ooh ooh, I know this one!

.. It's The Romans isn't it ?

Cougar - Moderator

You realise why we have roads, yes?

This is a poor argument.
The reason why we [i]had[/i] roads was for horse based transport.
The reason why we [i]have[/i] roads is for wheeled transport.

Or are you going to try and tell me that the bypass that has just opened with two lanes in each direction, cat's eyes and armco was specifically built with horses in mind?

Ooh ooh, I know this one!

.. It's The Romans isn't it ?

sbob - the majority of road users are in wheeled transportation, doesn't mean that they are the only ones who have rights to use the roads

Well I know the A66 was invented for the Appleby Horse Fair. Can't wait.

[img] https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSl5PMllhk8ijcOkRbNvMsv5edF0hk2HsZf36QaIVa3VrGGEqoH9w [/img]

It's akin to me going for a spin in a Caterfield after four or five pints.

REALLLLLLLLLY? Can you honestly not see the difference there?

It's the poop.

I'd rather have the horse poop on the roads than on my path to work 🙂

given the comprehensive bridlepath network we have in this country there's no need 🙄

Exactly. As a society we've built roads straight through (or sometimes on top of) existing bridleways and then complained when riders using the bridleways need to use the roads to link them up.

Well done us.

spawnofyorkshire - Member

sbob - the majority of road users are in wheeled transportation, doesn't mean that they are the only ones who have rights to use the roads

I'm well aware that horses are legally allowed on the road, and treat them with care and caution when I encounter them (frequently, there are loads of horses around where I work).

One has to treat them with care and caution as by the admission of your previous post, they are dangerous and unpredictable.

Or are you going to try and tell me that the bypass that has just opened with two lanes in each direction, cat's eyes and armco was specifically built with horses in mind?

So presumably you agree that bikes shouldn't be on the road either?

njee20 - Member

REALLLLLLLLLY? Can you honestly not see the difference there?

Of course there are differences, a horse has internal organs and legs, a car has an engine and wheels.

My point remains though, in both circumstances you have a pilot who is not in full control of their vehicle.

If you want to take the alcohol out of the equation, then just change the car for one that can accelerate, brake and or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

GrahamS - Member

So presumably you agree that bikes shouldn't be on the road either?

I don't think bikes should be on some roads, and the law agrees with me.

Personally I think it daft to mix it up with the 60/70mph traffic on the bypass when I can now use the pretty winding old route with little to no traffic, other than the occasional horse. 😆

One has to treat them with care and caution as by the admission of your previous post, they are dangerous and unpredictable

The horses I rode were only unpredictable when they were spooked, and they were spooked by idiot drivers
Getting a good connection with a horse is an amazing feeling, giving the tiniest command through your reigns and stirrups and the horse knowing what to do. Even the most docile and connected horse can be upset by a turd in a corsa driving too closely/quickly near it though.

Five deaths isn't enough

Someone seriously wrote this?

spawnofyorkshire - Member

Getting a good connection with a horse is an amazing feeling, giving the tiniest command through your reigns and stirrups and the horse knowing what to do

I'd rather not hear the specifics of your perverse interspecies relationships, thank you!
😯 😆

Feeling the animal tense under you when you hear a revving engine

There was no info on this in the driving test (there needs to be and cycle info too actually people should just ride a bike).

I presume you should slow down for horse's but then to pass you need to rev your engine to get past ?

I dont want to be spending all day on the other side of the road when over taking surely that is dangerous ?

I dont want to be spending all day on the other side of the road when over taking

That's one ****ing big horse! 😆

They're a half ton mode of transport that the rider is not in full control of.

vs this:
[img] [/img]

Driven by the usual halfwit?

I don't see the issue TBH.

I'm well aware that [s]horses[/s] [b]other drivers[/b] are legally allowed on the road, and treat them with care and caution when I encounter them (frequently, there are loads of [s]horses[/s] [b]other drivers[/b] around where I work).

One has to treat them with care and caution as... they are dangerous and unpredictable.

FTFY.

There was no info on this in the driving test (there needs to be and cycle info too actually people should just ride a bike).

The Highway Code covers it, but knowledge of that doesn't seem to be required these days sadly. If it doesn't come up in the test questions then you are good to go.

4. Other road users (214 to 218)
[b]214: Animals.[/b]
When passing animals, drive slowly. Give them plenty of room and be ready to stop. Do not scare animals by sounding your horn, revving your engine or accelerating rapidly once you have passed them. Look out for animals being led, driven or ridden on the road and take extra care. Keep your speed down at bends and on narrow country roads. If a road is blocked by a herd of animals, stop and switch off your engine until they have left the road. Watch out for animals on unfenced roads.

[b]215: Horse riders and horse-drawn vehicles. [/b]
Be particularly careful of horse riders and horse-drawn vehicles especially when overtaking. Always pass wide and slowly. Horse riders are often children, so take extra care and remember riders may ride in double file when escorting a young or inexperienced horse or rider. Look out for horse riders' and horse drivers' signals and heed a request to slow down or stop. Take great care and treat all horses as a potential hazard.

From https://www.gov.uk/road-users-requiring-extra-care-204-to-225/other-road-users-214-to-218

Of course there are differences, a horse has internal organs and legs, a car has an engine and wheels.

My point remains though, in both circumstances you have a pilot who is not in full control of their vehicle.

If you want to take the alcohol out of the equation, then just change the car for one that can accelerate, brake and or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the common factor in horse related deaths is motor vehicles, not the horse rider. Ie I doubt many pedestrians are being killed. As with cyclists it's the motorists doing the killing. So the "diminished responsbility" the horse riders have is getting them killed, not causing them to kill. In the the drunk driver example the odds are significantly higher than they will kill other people.

I dont want to be spending all day on the other side of the road when over taking surely that is dangerous ?

Only if you decide to overtake where it is dangerous!

There was no info on this in the driving test (there needs to be and cycle info too actually people should just ride a bike).

I presume you should slow down for horse's but then to pass you need to rev your engine to get past ?

I dont want to be spending all day on the other side of the road when over taking surely that is dangerous ?

I'll bite. If there isn't enough room to slowly increase the revs to overtake the horse (giving it a wide berth) then there isn't enough room to overtake. It's sudden movements and unexpected noises that spook horses (and riders)

vs this

I've never seen an Audi throw its driver onto the bonnet of another car before bolting across fields/through fences finally concussing itself on a garage door.
YMMV, but then I do encounter a lot more horses than Audi Q7s.

Cougar - Moderator

FTFY.

Not really Cougar, I do give more consideration to horses than your average motorist.

You must have a higher opinion of the "average" motorist than I do.

njee20 - Member

I could be wrong, but I'm guessing the common factor in horse related deaths is motor vehicles, not the horse rider. Ie I doubt many pedestrians are being killed. As with cyclists it's the motorists doing the killing. So the "diminished responsbility" the horse riders have is getting them killed, not causing them to kill. In the the drunk driver example the odds are significantly higher than they will kill other people.

My point was that it is not ok to be on the roads if you're not in full control of your vehicle.
Are you actually opposing this view?

Cougar - Moderator

You must have a higher opinion of the "average" motorist than I do.

Somewhere between inbred horse and feral badger.

My point was that it is not ok to be on the roads if you're not in full control of your vehicle.

But the horse is in full control of the vehicle (to wit, itself). The bloke on its back is just the navigator.

My point was that it is not ok to be on the roads if you're not in full control of your vehicle.
Are you actually opposing this view?

I take issue with your opinion that riding a horse is akin to drink driving.

Should riding one handed also be outlawed?

Somewhere between inbred horse and feral badger.

Gotta say, I don't fancy Tesco's new range of sandwiches.

The reason why we had roads was for horse based transport.
The reason why we have roads is for wheeled transport.

Absolutely categorically and very importantly DEAD WRONG.

Roads are there for ALL road users. To say that one group of road users should lose their entitlement simply because some members of another group is just too bloody lazy or stupid to follow the rules and drive properly is outrageous.

That's bullying by numbers. And it's not acceptable. ESPECIALLY bad coming from a cyclist!

Maybe we need a middle ground.

[img] [/img]

Also,

What Molgrips said. Spot on, sir.

(You've [i]got [/i]to realise that you're just brimming over with wrongability when Molly and I are in agreement on a motoring thread.)

My point was that it is not ok to be on the roads if you're not in full control of your vehicle.

The notion of "full control" is illusory - there are limits to every road users's ability to react to conditions on the road. In some ways drivers are in less control than horseriders, their stopping distance and their turning circle for example.

I came up behind some riding two abreast the other day, held me up for at least five seconds the selfish ****ers.

Horses have a perfect right to be on the road, but I would like to see anyone wearing a "POLITE" vest thrown in the slammer for being a clever dick.

njee20 - Member

I take issue with your opinion that riding a horse is akin to drink driving.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

And that will be a perfectly reasonable metaphor when horses are killing or seriously injuring thousands of third-parties on the roads every year.

But as far as I know they're not.

Roads are not just for cars. We all have to play nice and share.

That's why I gave the alcohol free example of driving a car that could brake, accelerate or change direction without the driver being able to stop it.

You must have missed this then:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009%E2%80%9311_Toyota_vehicle_recalls

molgrips - Member

Roads are there for ALL road users.

Absolutely categorically and very importantly DEAD WRONG. 😉

Not all roads are there for all road users, as you are well aware.

I admire your ideological stance, but as I tried to point out earlier in reply to Cougar, the reality is that plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

The right or wrong of this is irrelevant, it [i]is[/i] the reality.

Not all roads are there for all road users, as you are well aware.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

Plenty of modern roads are designed with no regard to cyclists either. It doesn't mean that cyclists shouldn't use the roads.

Horses should only be on the road when working.

GrahamS - Member

And that will be a perfectly reasonable metaphor when horses are killing or seriously injuring thousands of third-parties on the roads every year.

But as far as I know they're not.

Only because they are so lacking in number.
A quick google suggests that per hour of activity, horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling, if only to the rider involved.

why is "per hour" the bodging factor to compare totally different stats?

A quick google suggests that per hour of activity, horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling, if only to the rider involved.

Hang on, what do you think "third party" means?

GrahamS - Member

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

You're the one joining the dots on what I have said, it was not my fallacy.

Plenty of modern roads are designed with no regard to cyclists either. It doesn't mean that cyclists shouldn't use the roads.

Shouldn't use which roads?
You'll be guilty of the fallacy you accuse me of if you're not careful.

Feel free to exercise your right to cycle down the A14 if you wish, I won't be joining you.
I'll be on the winding back road, or better still the car (and horse) free bridleway. 😀

Horses should only be on the road when working.

Same argument for bikes?

[img] [/img]

andytherocketeer - Member

why is "per hour" the bodging factor to compare totally different stats?

What would you use, per mile? 💡

neither.
they are different stats, by participants in different, incomparable modes of transportation.

beds are dangerous. more people probably die in one of them than on a bike, in a car, or straddling a horse. probably both outright, and "per hour".

You're the one joining the dots on what I have said, it was not my fallacy.

Really? Because your argument so far seems to be "[i]All[/i] roads are exclusively for wheeled transport because [i]some[/i] roads are not suitable for horses"

As I said, you can make the same arguments for bikes, as indeed you just have, but it doesn't mean it is true.

Some roads are not suitable for cars either.

[img] [/img]

Same argument for bikes?

Of course not. Stop doing that.

lemonysam - Member

Hang on, what do you think "third party" means?

I know exactly what third party means, hence the caveat at the end of my post after quite literally an I'm feeling lucky google search.

My concern is always for the safety of all road users, if yours excludes any particular group for whatever reasons then so be it. It will not change my behaviour on the roads.

Of course not. Stop doing that.

Why? That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

andytherocketeer - Member

neither.
they are different stats, by participants in different, incomparable modes of transportation.

Why do you believe they are incomparable?

My concern is always for the safety of all road users

If that really is the case then you should be fully supporting motorised vehicle drivers acting safely around others, [b]not[/b] suggesting that the others get off the (some) roads, as then they are no longer 'road users'.

Why? That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

The conversation has moved on.

Stop living in the past.

That was pretty much the thrust of my original post, that horse riders are being given the same tired old nonsense that cyclists using the road are bored of hearing.

I've never seen an Audi throw its driver onto the bonnet of another car before bolting across fields/through fences finally concussing itself on a garage door.

[img] [/img]

My concern is always for the safety of all road users, if yours excludes any particular group for whatever reasons then so be it. It will not change my behaviour on the roads.

I suspect your [i]"horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling"[/i] is comparing ALL horse riding (including racing, show jumping, steeplechase etc) to normal motorcycle use on the road.

The RRCGB doesn't offer the [i]Risk-Per-Distance[/i] stats for horse riders on the road, but RAS20003 does say there were just 2 fatal accidents and 30 serious in 2013.

(Meanwhile Mobility Scooters caused 5 fatalities and 26 serious accidents 😯 )

GrahamS - Member

Really? Because your argument so far seems to be "All roads are exclusively for wheeled transport because some roads are not suitable for horses

Not at all Graham, I haven't said that.
I have made the observation that a lot of modern roads are built without the consideration of certain road users.

I'm not sure why you would take umbrage with that.

I've also argued that horses shouldn't be on the roads because their riders aren't in full control of them, and likened horse riding to drink driving or driving a poorly made Toyota.

Now [i]that[/i], I could understand you taking umbrage with, though it remains my opinion. 🙂

Remember what life was like before the internet?
It was pretty much the same, but morons with moronic opinions couldn't spout them all over the place. Maybe down the pub when they could be shouted down by people with brains.
Things were better then Graham... you should pretend it's still like that and stop reading Facebook.

Why do you believe they are incomparable?

and since the total number of car journeys, car hours on the road or car miles is a massively higher figure than horse journeys, horse hours or horse miles on roads, then a handful of extra deaths of the latter could be a measurable higher percentage, but for the former wouldn't even be noticeable as statistical noise.

[b]bails[/b] - my congratulations for finding that pic! Epic!

amedias - Member

If that really is the case then you should be fully supporting motorised vehicle drivers acting safely around others, not suggesting that the others get off the (some) roads, as then they are no longer 'road users'.

I've already stated that I drive carefully and considerately around horses, even if I don't think it is a good idea for them to share the roads with other vehicle types.
You won't find me advocating anything other than safe considerate road use.

GrahamS - Member

I suspect your "horse riding is far more dangerous than say motorcycling" is comparing ALL horse riding (including racing, show jumping, steeplechase etc) to normal motorcycle use on the road.

Oh, I do absolutely concede that it was a first hit google and don't have the detailed stats to hand.

andytherocketeer - Member

if you have to apply an arbitrary means of modifying a statistic to attempt to match it to another one, then they don't compare.

We'll have to disagree on this one, and I do know maths. 🙂

The stat isn't being modified, it's being given meaning.

I find it really odd when you see the comparison of motorists in the vicinity of horses and cyclists:

With horses, most of them slow down to an absolute crawl, sit well back, are willing to wait for ages for a safe spot to overtake, crawl past when finally safe to do so, often giving the horse riders a cheery wave - even if the horse is going in the opposite direction they will slow down to a crawl and wave.

With cyclists.....erm.....the opposite.

I've even had situations where a driver has squeezed past me while I'm on the bike, overtaking while there's oncoming traffic and generally making a pigs ear out of the whole thing in a bid to get past as fast as possible.
Then, they realise a short distance up ahead there is a horse and they do the whole slowing, patiently waiting, waving thing and all signs of dangerous urgency have completely vanished.

I think a lot of it is because they know that horses are a bit more unpredictable and can do a lot more damage to their car than an irate cyclist ever could.

The Highway Code covers it, but knowledge of that doesn't seem to be required these days sadly.

You've got that the wrong way round.

These days you need way more knowledge of the Highway Code to even be allowed to take your test, than most of us needed to have to pass it.

Theory test needs to passed before you can even get behind the wheel to take your driving test.

I took mine in 1989 and answered 3 questions as an afterthought when we got back to the test centre.

wouldn't necessarily even say that.

psychology plays in to it too. on a bike i'll even admit I've been on the road above the speed limit (according to my VDO computery thing), and the car driver mentality is "cyclist, I need to get past". Well, if I'm at or over the limit, then he must surely have to exceed the limit by more, and more often than not, will do exactly that.

when it's a horse, most IME will think "oh, horse, don't want to scare it".

but then where I come from, most of the roads probably used to be bridle ways that got tarmacced in the last century or so, and horses are common, indeed at least 3 farm stables within the first 200m of leaving the village.

I admire your ideological stance, but as I tried to point out earlier in reply to Cougar, the reality is that plenty of modern roads are not designed with any consideration for bestial transport whatsoever.

So what? All the more reason to take extra care then isn't it?

I've also argued that horses shouldn't be on the roads because their riders aren't in full control of them

Some might not be, but I think many are. A rider who ISN'T in full control of his or her horse shouldn't be on the road (and I've met a few of those) but the same could be said of any vehicle. Bikes and cars will move themselves even less intelligently than a horse under the influence of gravity or momentum.

Oh and bails - [i]very[/i] well played!

You've got that the wrong way round.

Yeah I should probably have skipped the "these days" clause.
The Theory Test certainly improved things a fair bit over the "three random questions" nonsense.

But that's the last contact that many drivers will have with the Highway Code.
Periodic retests would help.