Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

Phil – have just been peeking. Those other historical texts are not very reliable and were written hundreds of years after the ‘events’.

For me it comes down to the burden of proof and the fact that extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. If you told me there was a religious leader around 2000 years ago who got some disciples and was persecuted then I’d most probably agree and also think that it happened more than once to other religious folk.

If then, tagged onto the end was, ‘and it was the son of the creator of the entire universe who was actually himself and got killed so that the original sin could be removed’ then it moves into the ‘extraordinary claim’ territory.

As for evidence of this very extraordinary claim I have no idea what would prove it, in the context of all other religions, so the only answer I would have is “What you got?” 😀

I was won over by ‘evidence’ but you might be looking for a different kind of evidence to me.

I want the same evidence as when anyone postulates anything. I dont care how genuine they are in believing this be it a homoeopath or someone reading my aura. I dont know what kind of evidence you found but it is not real nor demonstratable

They knew Jesus very well and had followed him everywhere, they saw it all first hand, and they were willing to die horrible deaths as ‘heretics’ for what they taught. For my friend, this ‘evidence’ was enough for him

Forgive the Goodwin but a lot of nazis did this for Hitler
It proves nothing.

my point is that those disciples must have been fully convinced by what they saw

as above – it proves they believed [ of the accounts written 300 years after their death are to be believed. It does not prove they are correct any more than a suicide bomber dying for their faith proves they are correct.

historical texts

So is merlin/Arthur and in much the same way it was hundreds of years after his death. It does not make it true. When it is not even written at the time then we have to wonder how accurate the “word of mouth” is 200 years later.

You cannot prove god by the standards of proof we demand for other things. if you use that standard you can prove everything as long as folk are devout enough in thinking its true

Whit is yer favrite colurr?

Adam, fair point. Proving I’ve got the right one is a fair ask. For me, the bible itself is my evidence, together with what I’ve seen of the believers here today and the lives they lead. I guess its easier for me because I’ve been brought up in church and have seen ‘faith in action’ all my life. But I still had to come to my own decision, which I didn’t take lightly.

The bible is a very special book. I’ve studied it for many years, and yet it constantly amazes me. the way things fit together so perfectly despite being written by many different writers over a vast period of time, to me it doesn’t take much to realise its a supernatural book. I appreciate you don’t want to spend years reading the bible, you want the answers now, and I don’t blame you. But I can promise you this, time spent reading the bible with an open heart is never wasted time. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on. That’s not just an invitation to you Adam, but everyone on this thread.

Gotta go now, on my way out.

some would say that the fact that Christians focus their time/love towards others, in helping those in need is indeed ‘evidence’

Some would say it’s “evidence”, some would say it’s a can of spaghetti hoops. You can’t just provide evidence by redefining the word “evidence” to mean something else.

my friend said that for him,despite knowing what he does, the greatest evidence wasn’t scientific, but the fact that the first disciples were willing to die for their faith.

That’s only evidence if you believe in the first place.

Love … of an individual for their God are not in dispute are they?

No, it’s the love in the opposite direction I’m disputing. You can love any invisible friend you like, I’ll be shocked if they love you back.

The bible is a very special book. I’ve studied it for many years, and yet it constantly amazes me. the way things fit together so perfectly

Sorry, I thought you said you’d read it. It’s probably the single most self-contradictory text there is.
No, it’s the love in the opposite direction I’m disputing.

For me, the bible itself is my evidence,

What even the bits we know to be factually wrong

. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on

Yes dont read leviticus

“All the fat is the Lord’s.” 3:16
Moses puts blood on Aaron’s right ear, thumb, and big toe. 8:23-24
God’s 13th Killing:
God kills Aaron’s sons for offering “strange fire before the Lord.” 10:1-2
Hares are unclean since they chew the cud. 11:6
Bats are just unclean birds. 11:13,19
Four-legged birds are an abomination to God. 11:20
Insects have four legs. 11:21, 23
Baby girls are twice as dirty as baby boys. 12:1-8
God’s cure for leprosy. 14:2-32
What to do if “he that hath the issue spit upon him that is clean.” 15:8
What to do “if any man’s seed of copulation go out from him.” 15:16-18
Menstruating women are unclean to God. 15:19-30
God’s law for wet dreams. 15:16-17, 32
Don’t look at any naked menstruating women. 18:19
Homosexuality is an abomination to God. 18:22
Don’t mix seeds when sowing a field or wear a garment with mixed fibers. 19:19
If you have sex with a slave woman, you must then scourge her. 19:20
Don’t round the corners of your head or mar the corners of your beard. 19:27
Children who curse their parents, adulterers, and homosexuals must be killed. 20:9-12
Woman with “familiar spirits” must be stoned to death. 20:27
The unchaste daughters of priests must be burnt to death. 21:9
Handicapped people must not approach the altar. 21:16-23
God’s 14th Killing:
A man curses and blasphemes while disputing with another man. Moses asks God what to do about it. God says that the whole community must stone him to death. “And the children of Israel did as the Lord and Moses commanded.” 24:10-23
God’s instructions for buying slaves. 25:45-46
“Ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.” 26:16
God will “send wild beasts among you, which shall rob your of your children.” 26:22
“And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat.” 26:29
God places a dollar value on human life; women are worth less (50 – 60%) than men. 27:3-7

You can love any invisible friend you like, I’ll be shocked if they love you back.

It was funny but putting it twice is the sin of vanity 😉

C&P error; fixed now, TY.

It’s not arrogant to say that you can’t figure out the answers to the universe.

It’s not arrogant to know that there’s no omniscient, omnipotent prime mover in the universe who loves you personally.

It’s not sad to feel that life and the love of your real friends and family is more than enough to make life worth living.

Isn’t it much sadder to feel that there is a more important love required, that demanded by your god, than the love of the people who have chosen to spend their limited time with you

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out and nothing were passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again.

There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it all out again

such deep and original insight is rare!

such deep and original insight is rare!

lol, I love you too, you piss taking wee scrotey. unfortunately I’m far to much of dobber (as well you know and often point out) to have come up with such a clever thing and it is the words of the rather eloquent penn gillete wot I stole and put up here.

Imagine there’s no heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today…
Im sure he would of been a mountain biker too…..

Cartoons! because they are a lot easier than thinking!

But I can promise you this, time spent reading the bible with an open heart is never wasted time. Start with say with one of the four gospels and let me know how you get on. That’s not just an invitation to you Adam, but everyone on this thread.

Don’t forget the Quran, the Sutras, the book of mormon and Tao Te Ching too. Got to open your heart to all of them.

*edited* life is too short to waste on negative feeling towards another, even if they are a Charlie Uniform November…..

don’t get all upset, it’s just the same joke you made

such deep and original insight is rare!

i think he may have been subtlety suggesting that quote has been used several times already in this thread.

the way things fit together so perfectly despite being written by many different writers over a vast period of time,

it has of course been edited and re-edited quite a few times and had stuff removed, bit bizarre that they still haven’t managed to sort out the contradictions, removed the really silly bits and clarify the contentious stuff

to me it doesn’t take much to realise its a supernatural book.

it certainly is an incredible bit of text, seems that you can use it to prove/argue your case whatever that is, even more amazingly someone diametrically opposed to you can also use it to argue their case. Astounding bit of literitchoor. But not supernatural.

For a bunch of self-confessed Atheists, you sure have taken up a lot of time, space and energy convincing yourselves of your non-belief and denouncing those who do. I’m not sure whether to applaud you, cry or laugh. I’m opting for the latter. Go in peace people.

+1 and 900 (good grief)

For a bunch of self-confessed Atheists, you sure have taken up a lot of time, space and energy convincing yourselves of your non-belie

we are trying to convince them they are wrong not convince ourselves.

Go in education

Molgrips, your point about choosing to believe your wife loves you, would it then be right to say that unless you chose to believe that she loves you, you wouldn’t be able to experience that love? you chose to accept the ‘evidence’ which again might not be considered to be ‘true’ scientific evidence that many in this thread are asking for, but still, it was plenty enough evidence for you to believe

That is exactly the point I was trying to make 🙂

As for evidence – the truth is essential un-knowable. It’s a bit like Plato’s cave – if you feel a great profound love for God, how do you know it’s not just all in your head? How do you know someone hasn’t spiked your drink with acid and MDMA?

The people who died for Jesus could have been motivated by divine love or just bonkers. There is really know way of knowing for sure.

I guess that’s why they call it faith. Does that about close the thread?

As for evidence – the truth is essential un-knowable.

The truth may be unknowable, but we can rank hypotheses based on likelihood of probability.

It’s a bit like Plato’s cave – if you feel a great profound love for God, how do you know it’s not just all in your head?

Often people with dementia are fully aware of their illness, at least in the initial stages.
The lack of verifiable evidence should be a powerful enough argument for most rationally minded people.

How do you know someone hasn’t spiked your drink with acid and MDMA?

Chance would be a fine thing. 🙂

we are trying to convince them they are wrong not convince ourselves.

I’m not, I just enjoy the discussion. If someone suddenly goes “oh, yeah” along the way that’s just a bonus.

The lack of verifiable evidence should be a powerful enough argument for most rationally minded people.

Nonono. See, the thing is, some people have an evidence based world view. They are analytical and think that to believe something they need hard evidence.

But other people don’t think like that. Let’s face it, who the hell cares how the universe was created? Why don’t I just choose the theory that makes me feel good? Why worry about whether or not it’s true?

Don’t conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

If you just go around thinking you’re all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

Atheists thinking religious people are stupid is exactly the same as religious people pitying atheists for not believing in God.

As for trying to convince people – I just want to progress the debate and get people thinking. It’s cos I love you all… 😉

As for trying to convince people – I just want to progress the debate and get people thinking. It’s cos I love you all…

With respect, you are turning into Simon Barnes.
And really, really not in a good way.

As for evidence – the truth is essential un-knowable

Is this your view of all postulated entities that have no physical proof or just for god mr physicist?

The only reason we have this debate is because you canno tprove a negative – its impossible as there is no evidence – do you describe all things of which you have no evidence as ” we cannot be sure”?
Unicorns?

You should employ the same standards for theology as you do any other claimed physical entity.

PS they claim god is everywhere , in everything and its obvious so it really should be a piece of piss for them.
Its clearly bobbins and the we cannot be certain is only true in the sense we cannot be certain of anything if setting the bar stupidly high.
You cannot claim something , fail to show any evidence for it and then claim we cannot be certain – well you can but you are a fool

Why worry about whether or not it’s true?

you want to worship a deity and claim they made the world, follow their word but not actually consider whether it is true or not. No one is that stupid

Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

Yes but we never blow ourselves up in gods name

If you just go around thinking you’re all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

Your right science can teach us nothing about human kind. i mean we should definitely not empirically study them we should take a book and just believe …there is no better way to understanding humans obviously.
Lets scrap mental health and start the exorcisms forwith
I think i shall start ignoring you on these threads – you dont believe in god so I have no idea why you need to do this tbh

Yes but we never blow ourselves up in gods name

careful, religious peeps don’t own the copyright on exploding themselves, thought it was more a tactic of people whose country is occupied, religious or otherwise.

Molly is just continuing the discussion, playing devils advocate*

*assuming that term means what I think it means

Don’t conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

Yes. We know.
But the non religious don’t do bad things and then use god as justification.

But other people don’t think like that. Let’s face it, who the hell cares how the universe was created? Why don’t I just choose the theory that makes me feel good? Why worry about whether or not it’s true?

Yes. We’ll try and breed this trait out.
Or maybe try surgery.

Don’t conflate belief in God, religion and things done in the name of religion. Religious people do do bad things, but so do non religious people.

Show me once, in all the religion threads we’ve ever done, where anyone has ever suggested that non religious people don’t do bad things.

If you just go around thinking you’re all smug and right with your science, and all religious people are just being dense, then you are never going to learn anything about human kind.

I don’t. We know.
Why are you posting this rubbish?
Are you getting paid by the cliche? 🙂

Atheists thinking religious people are stupid is exactly the same as religious people pitying atheists for not believing in God.

No it isn’t.
The reason why has been explained approximately once every page throughout this thread.
See what I mean about Barnes? 😀

Well you must surely all draw comfort that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, commander of it’s biggest army and arguably most destructive force, to this very day, believes in God.

See that post back there.. Ironic it was 911 just as I was about to counter it with the fact that the leader of their biggest opposing force also believes in God, some would argue the same God, but both think each other are evil.

*edited* life is too short to waste on negative feeling towards another, even if they are a Charlie Uniform November…..

Lovely, just because i made the same gag about you as you made about other people. Still,at least it prompted you to nearly express a thought.

just because i made the same gag about you as you made about other people

no it was the systematic stalking and trying to start arguments at every opportunity as if you had some personal crusade/grudge a while ago that formed my opinion of you and then you vanished for a bit and it was peaceful and lovely and now you’ve returned

i’ve missed you charlie, welcome back 😆

The thing is, as I’ve tried to point out a few times before, religion isn’t some lovely harmless thing that we can let people get one with and mind our own business.

Religion mutilates children’s genitals (Christians, in the UK), subjugates women, encourages homophobia, discourages safe sex and family planning, blows people up, starts wars, continues wars…

If you want to hack your children around because your god (which ever one of the many that is) says so, I think we all have a right to see some proof he/or she said that.

Well you must surely all draw comfort that the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, commander of it’s biggest army and arguably most destructive force, to this very day, believes in God.

You think? Or does he just say that to appease the masses?

TuckerUK – Member
The thing is, as I’ve tried to point out a few times before, religion isn’t some lovely harmless thing that we can let people get one with and mind our own business.

Religion mutilates children’s genitals (Christians, in the UK), subjugates women, encourages homophobia, discourages safe sex and family planning, blows people up, starts wars, continues wars…

I’m becoming concerned with your fixation on children’s genitals, this must be the third or fourth time now, are you a teacher by any chance?

And as to religion doing it, it’s not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation.

it’s not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation

The teacher in me wants to bother to get the biblical quotes that support their homophobia, treatment of women etc but experience teaches me some folk you just cant teach 😉

Its sometimes stupid folk – Islamic suicide bombers for example. it sometime what the god says – homosexuality bad

Junkyard – Member
it’s not religion, or God, it is stupid folks interpretation

it sometime what the god says – homosexuality bad

But the ‘God’ didn’t say it did she? It was some mad mans interpretation and people were stupid enough to believe him.

So if it were to occur today and say Obama came down a mountain and told the American people God had spoken to him, would as many folk take it as gospel?

You’ll be telling me L Ron Hubbard was wrong next.

Ok Ok it was a troll that last bit, it just slipped out, I’ll stop now 😉

The teacher in me wants to bother to get the biblical quotes that support their homophobia, treatment of women etc but experience teaches me some folk you just cant teach

Best not to, the scientist in me would want you to show me the causal link between what it says in the bible and the way people behave