Creationist religious nutjob on R4 "One to One 9.30am"

Four ‘undred!

Get in.

Wrong, again.

About what?

How many times do you religion debatists need it explaining to you, what you all are, like it or not.
You are, like me and everyone else, an Agnostic, since neither Atheism or Religious faith can be proven so the default is obvious.

The world is Agnostic if only it would admit it and become a better place.

Except, it isn’t. This is the sort of disingenuous argument that some theists use to point score against atheists; it basically implies that even though you reject religion, you’re still a little tiny bit religious really, aren’t you?

I don’t “know” there is no god. But, the only reason to think there might be is a bunch of fables and superstitions written by collections of scientifically ignorant people trying to make sense of the universe thousands of years ago, written in dead language that no-one really understands, and then roughly translated hundreds of years later by other groups of people with their own “interpretations” and agendas. The fact that most of the Western world these days thinks Jesus was a long haired beardy white man strolling around the Middle East should demonstrate just how reliable these accounts are.

As Miketually nicely suggested, I don’t “know” that there’s no Father Christmas or Tooth Fairy either. They could exist, there’s plenty of stories about them too.

So I can’t disprove gods, Santa or dental pixies, and I don’t know for certain that they don’t exist. But in all those cases, there’s no reason to think that they might, other than old, unverifiable stories which beggar any sort of sense.

So I believe, and I know beyond any reasonable doubt, that there is no god. Ergo, I am atheist, not agnostic. I’m making any apologist concessions that there might be a god, any more than

Should evidence come to light in the future that this ‘knowledge’ may be incorrect, then I will of course revise my stance accordingly.

Has he gone?

To put that another way,

Trying to ‘prove’ Atheism is like trying to ‘prove’ Superman. Atheism is the baseline, it’s our observed, measured universe. The burden of proof relies on those suggesting wacky alternatives. Atheism isn’t a belief system, it’s the absence of one; I don’t go around actively not believing in things, I’d be here all day.

There’s books about Superman. They’ve even got pictures of him and everything. 😀

Is it time for my favourite yet?????

“Atheism is a religion like not collecting stamps is a hobby”

Yeah, there’s a meme floating around the Internet along those lines. Hang on.

EDIT – here we go.

Surfer > that’s great. (-:

Thing is, most of the believers, especially on here, aren’t particualrly expecting others to take their beliefs seriously.

Really? You don’t think religions or the religious try to persuade others to join in or take their beliefs seriously?

Is it a physicist that I see shouting about the bible in the town centre on a weekend? Do small groups of chemists post copies of the Watchtower through my door? Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords?

Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords?

there’s lots of old fossils, does that count?

Something else just occurred to me.

Isn’t stamp collecting a weird hobby? I mean, hobbies are things you do with your free time, like (for instance) mountain biking. Do philatelists say to their spouses, “See you later on, dear, I’m just going to go into the study to collect stamps for a couple of hours.”

I had a stamp album as a kid. I’d get stamps, put them in the album. Took about ten seconds. That leaves me with one hour, fifty-nine minutes and fifty seconds to kill.

or stymie medical research whilst benefiting from tax breaks and charity status?

That leaves me with one hour, fifty-nine minutes and fifty seconds to kill.

they spend that time on SingleFrankWorld arguing about religion, I susepct.

Molgrips – I’m not sure if you are trolling or genuinely trying to suggest that the comparison for evidence between electrons and a God is a sensible comparison.

I was drawing parallels, which I explained already.

From what I’ve read before molgrips likes to play devil’s* advocate on religious threads, not sure if he thinks the religious are outnumbered on STW and they need a bit if help or he just likes a good debate.

Both, but what I really enjoy is when we advance the debate. And to be fair every time it comes it up it gets more interesting, as it moves away from ‘hahaha religious thickos’.

I can vouch that Molly definitely exists

I don’t think that personal testimony can be considered sufficient evidence.

So… furnished as we now are with that knowledge, who fancies starting a religion in his name? I feel it would provide us all with a degree of certainty that’s presently lacking

So wait – I’m God and you’re what, John the Baptist? This could work.

It’s all a bit egotistic

Yes, and in my limited bible knowledge this seems to be one of the areas where the OT flatly contradicts the NT.

If this is the case (and I’m not disagreeing) then following scientific procedure one should come to the conclusion that Atheism is probably correct given the current information

Not in the least. The question of why there was a big bang is still absolutely wide open.

Creationism is not looking good though, but that’s not the same as religion.

I know beyond any reasonable doubt

You can’t know. And your sentence belies that too. You believe beyond reasonable doubt, but the definition of ‘reasonable’ is entirely subjective.

Somafunk you’re bordering on being offensive with your comments.

What’s wrong with being offensive/offended?

Being offended doesn’t give you special rights or anything.

they spend that time on SingleFrankWorld arguing about religion, I susepct.

Waste of time, philately will get them nowhere.

(sorry)

So wait – I’m God

I’ve seen you ride and can confirm you move in mysterious ways.

I saw you prostrate yourself a few times Cougar 🙂

Yeah, I think I ended up with stigmata, that’d explain it.

“Junkyard do you believe there is not a God?”
Junkyard: “Yes”

“NotJunkyard do you believe there is a God?”
NotJunkyard: “Yes”

Can either of you prove your belief?

Both: No

So you’re both Agnostics,

Welcome to our world Junkyard, we’ll be sending you a pack in due course and will expect you to go door to door preferably accompanied by a small child which you should at no time molest or discuss sexual matters with and concentrate on telling everyone they ‘don’t know’ and so are Agnostics and help us spread the word.
One day we will expect you to demonstrate your total belief by wearing a nice vest which will explode you to new levels of Agnostic none knowledge whilst converting others simultaneously.

(typed earlier posted a bit later)

From what I read, (although Junky can probably answer for himself), he’s more likely to say “Certainly, although I’m prepared to consider that I may be wrong, given supportive evidence”, no?

Can you prove Father Christmas doesn’t exist? No. Logical conclusion, you aren’t really sure whether Father Christmas exists or not?

When igrfjr says “daddy, is father christmas real?” do you say “well, no-one really knows for sure…”

Your logical fallacy is: Burden of Proof.

Thanks for playing.

“Should evidence come to light in the future that this ‘knowledge’ may be incorrect, then I will of course revise my stance accordingly.”

Yep … that’s what happened for me.

But C if your waiting for someone to wheel him out and say “here you go we’ve finally got him/her/them” you’re safe in your atheism. Because it just won’t happen, it can’t … you have to find him for yourself.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ? And that’s not to call into question your intelligence/manly hood/courage etc … really what is to be scared of ? Challenge your preconceived ideas, is that not a sign of intelligence? Is that not what science does?

I like our little tete a tete Cougar…. I hope you don’t mind me directing my responses to a wider audience at yourself. Please tell me if you’ve had enough and I’m boring you to tears.

Cougar – Your example doesn’t sound like shifting the burden of proof to me.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ? And that’s not to call into question your intelligence/manly hood/courage etc … really what is to be scared of ? Challenge your preconceived ideas, is that not a sign of intelligence? Is that not what science does?

I did that many years ago. It led me to conclude that religion is a bunch of tosh and that there is no god. I only recently came to use the label Athiest.

Is it a physicist that I see shouting about the bible in the town centre on a weekend? Do small groups of chemists post copies of the Watchtower through my door? Do top geologists get reserved places in the House of Lords?

I did say ‘most’.

Science at work…

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment

Yep … that’s what happened for me.

Wow, you have evidence of god? Mate, you’re going to be rich. Have you contacted the media?

if your waiting for someone to wheel him out… it just won’t happen, it can’t

Why not? There’s only one scenario I can think of where it’d be wholly impossible.

We’re at angry dolphins a little here. There’s a difference between finding god in the biblical sense (‘I’ve let his love into my life’) and practical terms (‘ooh, there he is!’). I’m not sure as one is a direct substitute for the other.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ?

I have an open mind. We’ve discussed this before. As a kid, I was obsessed with the supernatural and paranormal. I’ve done a lot of research into how and why ‘unexplained events’ can happen. Religion is no different.

You (and others) have mentioned “fear” a few times now. I don’t understand where this comes from (‘The Little Book of Indoctrination’ perhaps) but I can assure you I’m not scared. It’s actually a bit of a weird accusation from an atheist perspective; theist blackmailing is only a threat if you believe in it in the first place (or if your religion of choice promotes the burning of heretics, I suppose).

Contrary to Xtian belief perhaps, a little bit of hallelujahing isn’t going to make me suddenly give credence to baseless superstitions. It might give me a sense of community, make new friends, even revise my opinion of ‘good works’, all of which are positive things, but it’s going to take more than a large pretty building and a shouty man in a frock to convince me that the concept of a deity is anything more than an outdated relic from when we didn’t know any better.

I like our little tete a tete Cougar…. I hope you don’t mind

Not at all, it’s interesting.

Have an open mind and go look, what have you got to be scared of ?

Various church family events from birth onward. Religion in school. Church youth group during teenage years. A couple of Witton Castle Harvest events, with some big-name speakers where the Toronto blessing-style stuff “happened”. Regular Sunday morning church attendance until a year or so ago. Married to a Christian school chaplain, who has studied higher-level theology.

Nothing I’ve seen or experienced makes me think there’s anything beyond this material world. Nothing I’ve seen of Christianity makes me think there’s anything beyond this material world. Nothing I’ve seen of Christians makes me think there’s anything beyond this material world. Nothing I’ve read makes me think there’s anything beyond this material world.

It’s nonsense.

Science at work…

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Harvard_prayer_experiment

Yes, the idea of petitionary prayer is a complex theological point in many of the mainstream Christian churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Blessing

The more are gathered together, the lower the IQ count…

Nothing I’ve seen or experienced makes me think there’s anything beyond this material world

I’ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other. I’ve seen a lot of strange stuff, but I’ve never seen anything to make me believe there’s one all-powerful Force controlling everything. There’s no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. Anyway, it’s all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

Also see: Anything Derren Brown has done in front of a large audience…

what have you got to be scared of

Why do you presume that people are scared because they don’t believe in God or are religious, and further more what do we need to look for 🙄

Also see: Anything Derren Brown has done in front of a large audience

If you think that’s in any way analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

I proved the existence of Father Christmas to the then igrfjnrs, had them believing for a long while, just as I bought them up as good Catholic girls in a faith school that I fell over myself trying to get them into Agnostic Hypocrite that I am.

Seems obvious but worth noting that being an atheist isn’t a belief system it’s just a very specific single thing – I don’t believe in gods. Too often I see religious people try and expand the definition of atheist to include all types of things that do not logically follow on from not believing in gods. Like being a complete bastard for instance, I may well be but that’s got nothing to do with the supernatural.

Odd really but there it is.

If you think that’s in any way analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

If you think that this isn’t analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

If you think that this isn’t analogous to religion or faith then you have little understanding of either.

Go on then, tell me how a Derren Brown program is analogous to either organised religion or personal faith.

To me it sounds like the sort of unhelpfully glib comment that athiests use to demean the notion of faith so that they don’t have to actually engage with it.