AdamW – Member

chewkw, you are Deepak Chopra and I claim my £5.

Who?

Are you trying to make me work? I mean google this person?

😯

Bazz – Member

it’s just my experience from serving in Northern Ireland that a hell of a lot of “low level” stuff goes on daily with out ever making national news,

Oh yeah, for sure there’s everyday shittiness. Just not so much the rocket attacks, airstrikes etc.

chewkw: this link will enlighten you…. 😀

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

the he nightmare scenario for Israel, being a Hamas controlled government covering both Gaza and West Bank

Hamas always emerges stronger after Israel goes on a killing spree. That’s what has happened previously and there’s no reason to think that this time it will be any different.

Unsurprisingly the brutal killing innocent men women and children merely radicalizes the Palestinians and makes them hate the Zionists even more.

And it tends to have a simular affect among non-Palestinians across the world.

Unfortunately Zionists are bigots and racist extremists who can’t be restraint by pragmatic considerations such as that.

AdamW – Member

chewkw: this link will enlighten you….

http://www.wisdomofchopra.com/

FFS! More readings? My head hurts. I want to watch telly 😆

That’s not a very good one, random chewkw generator isn’t as good as random chopra.

Northwind – Member

That’s not a very good one, random chewkw generator isn’t as good as random chopra.

Ya, he has a website with random generator 😡 He wins hands down d’oh!

Well all of that stuff about there not being villages and packing handguns to travel is nonsense in most of Israel.
The last figures I saw were 92% of jewish Israelis lived in towns or cities, with the majority of the rest living on collective farms.

that’s precisely my point. Israel is highly urbanized and the vast majority of people go around living totally normal European-style lifestyles. all of this stuff about guard turrets and handguns is the preserve of a minority of a minority – the subset of rural residents who are settlers. they’re a small number, they’re loopy and they’re mostly the architects of the abnormality of their own lives.

i think this hits the nail on the head…

The Elders…. a group of statesmen brought together by Nelson Mandela…this is a brilliant, rationed argument for an equitable peace process by former US president Jimmy Carter and former Irish president Mary Robinson.

“Ending this war in Gaza begins with recognizing Hamas as a legitimate political actor.

Israelis and Palestinians are still burying their loved ones as Gaza’s third war in six years continues. Since July 8, when this war began, more than 1,600 Palestinian and 65 Israeli lives have been sacrificed. Many in the world are heartbroken in the powerless certainty that more will die, that more are being killed every hour.

This tragedy results from the deliberate obstruction of a promising move toward peace in the region, when a reconciliation agreement among the Palestinian factions was announced in April. This was a major concession by Hamas, in opening Gaza to joint control under a technocratic government that did not include any Hamas members. The new government also pledged to adopt the three basic principles demanded by the Middle East Quartet comprised of the United Nations, the United States, the European Union, and Russia: nonviolence, recognition of Israel, and adherence to past agreements. Tragically, Israel rejected this opportunity for peace and has succeeded in preventing the new government’s deployment in Gaza.

Two factors are necessary to make Palestinian unity possible. First, there must be at least a partial lifting of the 7-year-old sanctions and blockade that isolate the 1.8 million people in Gaza. There must also be an opportunity for the teachers, police, and welfare and health workers on the Hamas payroll to be paid. These necessary requirements for a human standard of living continue to be denied. Instead, Israel blocked Qatar’s offer to provide funds to pay civil servants’ salaries, and access to and from Gaza has been further tightened by Egypt and Israel.

There is no humane or legal justification for the way the Israeli Defense Forces are conducting this war. Israeli bombs, missiles, and artillery have pulverized large parts of Gaza, including thousands of homes, schools, and hospitals. More than 250,000 people have been displaced from their homes in Gaza. Hundreds of Palestinian noncombatants have been killed. Much of Gaza has lost access to water and electricity completely. This is a humanitarian catastrophe.

There is never an excuse for deliberate attacks on civilians in conflict. These are war crimes.This is true for both sides. Hamas’s indiscriminate targeting of Israeli civilians is equally unacceptable. However, three Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rockets, while an overwhelming majority of the 1,600 Palestinians killed have been civilians, including more than 330 children. The need for international judicial proceedings to investigate and end these violations of international law should be taken very seriously.

The U.N. Security Council should focus on what can be done to limit the potential use of force by both sides. It should vote for a resolution recognizing the inhumane conditions in Gaza and mandate an end to the siege. That resolution could also acknowledge the need for international monitors who can report on movements into and out of Gaza as well as cease-fire violations. It should then enshrine strict measures to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Early discussions have already taken place. The Elders, an international group of elder statesmen of which we are a part, hope these discussions will continue and reach fruition.

There is never an excuse for deliberate attacks on civilians in conflict. These are war crimes.This is true for both sides. Hamas’s indiscriminate targeting of Israeli civilians is equally unacceptable. However, three Israeli civilians have been killed by Palestinian rockets, while an overwhelming majority of the 1,600 Palestinians killed have been civilians, including more than 330 children. The need for international judicial proceedings to investigate and end these violations of international law should be taken very seriously.

The U.N. Security Council should focus on what can be done to limit the potential use of force by both sides. It should vote for a resolution recognizing the inhumane conditions in Gaza and mandate an end to the siege. That resolution could also acknowledge the need for international monitors who can report on movements into and out of Gaza as well as cease-fire violations. It should then enshrine strict measures to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza. Early discussions have already taken place. The Elders, an international group of elder statesmen of which we are a part, hope these discussions will continue and reach fruition.

At the Palestinians’ request, the Swiss government is considering convening an international conference of the signatory states of the Geneva Conventions, which enshrine the humanitarian laws of warfare. This could pressure Israel and Hamas into observing their duties under international law to protect civilian populations. We sincerely hope all states — especially those in the West, with the greatest power — attend and live up to their obligations to uphold the Fourth Geneva Convention, which governs the treatment of populations in occupied territory.

Unity between Fatah and Hamas is currently stronger than it has been for many years. As Elders, we believe this is one of the most encouraging developments in recent years and welcome it warmly. This presents an opportunity for the Palestinian Authority to reassume control over Gaza — an essential first step towards Israel and Egypt lifting the blockade.

The Palestinian Authority cannot manage the task of administering Gaza on its own. It will need the prompt return of the EU Border Assistance Mission, an international effort to help monitor border crossings that was launched in 2005 and suspended in 2007. EU High Representative Catherine Ashton has already offered to reinstate the program, covering not only Rafah but all of Gaza’s crossings. Egypt and Israel would, in turn, cooperate with international monitors to be deployed in Gaza and along its borders, backed by a U.N. Security Council mandate to protect civilian populations. A valuable precedent for trust-building between Egypt and Israel is the international peacekeeping force operating in the Sinai, mandated by the peace treaty signed by the two countries in 1979.

The international community’s initial goal should be the full restoration of the free movement of people and goods to and from Gaza through Israel, Egypt, and the sea. Concurrently, the United States and EU should recognize that Hamas is not just a military but also a political force. Hamas cannot be wished away, nor will it cooperate in its own demise. Only by recognizing its legitimacy as a political actor — one that represents a substantial portion of the Palestinian people — can the West begin to provide the right incentives for Hamas to lay down its weapons. Ever since the internationally monitored 2006 elections that brought Hamas to power in Palestine, the West’s approach has manifestly contributed to the opposite result.

Ultimately, however, lasting peace depends on the creation of a Palestinian state next to Israel.

Leaders in Israel, Palestine, and the world’s major powers should believe that policy changes are within reach that would move Israelis and Palestinians closer to a day when the skies over the Holy Land can forever fall silent.”

I’ve not checked the thread for a while so just catching up.

Hamas is a terrorist organisation and is recognised as such by the EU (and others), aside from building a huge stockpile of missiles which it has been firing into Israel for the whole of 2014 its spent a huge amount of time and money building tunnels into Israel for the sole purpose of killing or kidnapping people. Hamas terrorists have been repeatedly found to have syringes and tranquilizers on them as well as being dressed in IDF uniforms.

The Wall Street Journal has a piece making exactly the points I have done. Whilst the world is “outraged” at Israels actions in Gaza it is merely “concerned” at far greater loos of life in Syria, Iraq and now more recently in Pakistan where government forces have recently launched an offensive (1,500 dead in the past 6 weeks). Many more civilians and children are dying in those conflicts. The fact is the world is largely ignoring Muslim on Muslim conflicts as it focuses on the easier to pigeon hole conflict in Gaza, Big vs Small, Israeli vs Palastinain, Jew vs Muslim.

WSJ link – Palestine and Double Standards

Senator John McCain posted his support to the WSJ piece yesterday I totally agree – 170000 dead in Syria

The world has largely ignored 170,000 – one hundred and seventy thousand people who have died in the Syrian conflict. One hundred times that in Gaza and far more Palestinians have died there than in Gaza with Hamas having sided against the Syrian government. Perhaps its not surprising as Syria isn’t crawling with journalists posting images. The Journalists have been invited into Gaza by Hamas to fight their propaganda war.

@gonzy – you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

Whatabout?

you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

why should they be interested in a 2 state solution when it involves Israel retaining all the Palestinian territory it has stolen.

if the 2 state solution involved Israel going back to the 1947 borders then i’m pretty sure Hamas would accept it

you do appreciate that Hamas are the ones not interested in a two state solution ?

I’ll go back to the analogy of me booting you out of your house and moving in to it. Would you then accept a ‘negotiated solution’ that involved me still keeping your house, and you carrying on living in a tiny bit of wasteland at the bottom of the garden that I’ve forced you into, built a wall round so you can’t leave, control the supply of water and power too, which I cut off whenever I fancy it, for a laugh, and periodically if I’m in a bad mood, I lob a few bricks over?

Would you accept that?

Its ridiculous, and typical of its arrogant sense of righteousness, that Israel expects any ‘solution’ would mean absolutely no concessions on its part whatsoever, even though it still sits on illegally occupied Palestinian land

FFS will you start a thread on syria* rather than trying to discuss that constantly rather than Israel – I shall reply to your points on the scottish independence by simply discussing the basque region or something else entirely unrelated and telling you you dont care 🙄

* it is still a civil war between a dictator and some islamic jihadists who we are not funding or arming or considering members of the international community or saying they have the right to defend themselves. The whatbouterry distraction is tedious and you ignore the multiple post where everyone agrees it is terrible. Please stop and discuss this issue. Again , as if it will matter, Yes syria is bad and terrible and has crimes against humanity as does ISIS none of which means we should ignore the actions of a so called “liberal western democracy” acting like a “light” version of the deplorable states mentioned nor be apologist for their behaviour.

+1 JY

Jesus not more whataboutery from jambalaya. FFS.

“Whilst the world is “outraged” at Israels actions in Gaza it is merely “concerned” at far greater loos of life in Syria, Iraq and now more recently in Pakistan where government forces have recently launched an offensive (1,500 dead in the past 6 weeks). Many more civilians and children are dying in those conflicts”

you fail to mention that in each of those cases “the world” is taking an active role in those conflicts by propping up the governments of Pakistan, Syria and Iraq. the suggestion that nothing is being done is nonsense. the idea that what is being done is ineffective at best and actually malevolent at worst is probably quite true.

….. settlers. they’re a small number, they’re loopy

IMO it’s misleading to dismiss settlers as small in numbers. There are 400,000 settlers in the West Bank and the Israeli government expects the number to grow by 50% in the next 5 years to well over half a million.

That has to be seen in the context that there are approx 2 million Palestinians in the West Bank, so a very substantial figure.

Israeli minister sees 50 percent more settlers in West Bank by 2019

They are mainly loopy though, and armed, and they terrorize the Palestinian population on a daily basis.

Israel has always, in direct violation of international law, used its civilians as instruments of conquest making them legitimate targets for the Palestinian resistance against Israeli occupation.

I am not aware of any other country anywhere in the world which has settlers in the 21st century, only Israel could get away with that – even if it is illegal.

And let no one doubt just how central it is to Israeli government policy to conquer, demoralize, and subjugate the Palestinian people, to encourage Zionist extremists to colonize occupied territories.

This article in the Wall Street Journal (owned by the very pro-Israeli Rupert Murdoch) dated June 5 shows how the Israeli government was intent on using the illegal expansion of settlements in occupied Palestine to punish Palestinians for having the temerity of showing unity – an intolerable situation for the Zionists.

Israel Plans Expanded Settlement in Retaliation for Palestinian Government With Hamas

And from that article is the real reason why the Israelis went on a killing spree in Gaza :

Israel is seeking to punish the Palestinians after Mahmoud Abbas, president of the Palestinian Authority, swore in a new cabinet on Monday that is supported by Hamas, the Islamist movement that rules the Gaza Strip.

The Obama administration has continued to work with the new Palestinian government even though it hasn’t extended it official recognition. Mr. Netanyahu said earlier this week he was “deeply troubled” by the continued ties.

It was to repeat the much used lie that they were being attacked and to force the US to support them while blaming everything on Hamas at a time when Hamas was making significant progress in working with Fatah and their American backers.

Israel wanted a bloodbath in Gaza to throw a spanner in the works. They do not want peace, they want more land, more power, and to subjugate the Palestinians even further.

@Jambalaya
you seem to keep banging on about Hamas being a terrorist organisation and that they are seen as such by the EU (and others)
what you fail to point out is that the oppression and ethnic cleansing by the Israeli government has been going on long before Hamas arrived on the scene.
and who created Hamas? the Israeli government did…in order to undermine and disrupt the authority of the PLO
now that Hamas doesnt serve a purpose other than to try to represent the people of Gaza who elected them in US/EU funded democratic elections…it does not fit the Israeli agenda so they are now labelled as a terrorist group.
sure, they are no saints as their history shows but in recent years the evidence seem to indicate that they have observed the agreed truces more than the Israeli government, they have been more willing to discuss terms for a ceasefire of the hostilities and to negotiate with the Israeli government,
the fact is the Israeli government does not want to negotiate with the Palestinians…full stop
you claim that the Hamas charter states that one of their main objectives is the destruction of the state of Israel…this may be true but what may also be true is that this charter was written many years ago and since then Hamas seems to be adopting a more diplomatic approach and hasnt amended the charter to reflect this.
however Israel hasnt really given Hamas to put down its arms has it? you back a person into a corner and hit them enough times they will eventually fight back…this is what the Israeli government has done over the last 60 years.
if Israel really wanted to open up a long lasting diplomatic dialogue it would have done so by now…it has been given many opportunities to do so… the creation of the Palestinian Authority was so that it would meet the Israeli demands for a unified Palestiniain government to bring to the negotiation table and yet again Israel has rejected this.
Israel does not want to negotiate…it just lies when it says the the rest of the world that it does and then pins the blame on the Palestinians by saying that they dont want to negotiate.
its obvious to see and there is plenty of proof to back this up that the vast majority of the Knesset do not want to negotiate and they are in favour of the complete elimination of Palestine and for the land and resources to come into Israel’s possession.
these politicians have also been recorded on videos addressing the Israeli public on this and encouraging them to think and believe that this is the only policy that is acceptable to Israel

@ jambalaya
why anyone would want to negotiate with a government that advocates and perpetrates war crimes such as the example below?

Former combat soldier and company sergeant of the Israeli army turned whistle-blower Eran Efrati, aged 28, was arrested by the Israeli authorities and questioned concerning his research regarding the use of illegal weapons in Gaza.

On Tuesday, July 29, Efrati announced on Facebook that he received information from sources within the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) revealing what he claims to be the real reason for the Shuja’iyya massacre which occurred nine days prior on July 20: namely that civilians were targeted and killed by Israeli soldiers as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units.

In recent weeks I was on the border of Gaza and getting reports from soldiers in the Gaza Strip who leak information out to me. I am in the process of publication of two big stories in major U.S. newspapers, but there are some things I can share with you right now: Soldiers in two different units inside Gaza leaked information about the murdering of Palestinians by sniper fire in Shuja’iyya neighborhood as punishment for the death of soldiers in their units. After the shooting on the Israeli armored personnel carriers, which killed seven soldiers of the Golani Brigade, the Israeli army carried out a massacre in Shuja’iyya neighborhood. A day after the massacre, many Palestinians came to search for their relatives and their families in the rubble. In one of the videos uploaded to YouTube, a young Palestinian man Salem Shammaly calls the names of his family and looking for them between the ruins when he is suddenly shot at in his chest and falls down. A few seconds after that, there are two additional shootings from snipers into his body, killing him instantly. Since the video was released, there was no official response from the IDF spokesperson. Today I can report that the official command that was handed down to the soldiers in Shujaiyya was to capture Palestinian homes as outposts. From these posts, the soldiers drew an imaginary red line, and amongst themselves decided to shoot to death anyone who crosses it. Anyone crossing the line was defined as a threat to their outposts, and was thus deemed a legitimate target. This was the official reasoning inside the units. I was told that the unofficial reason was to enable the soldiers to take out their frustrations and pain at losing their fellow soldiers (something that for years the IDF has not faced during its operations in Gaza and the West Bank), out on the Palestinian refugees in the neighborhood. Under the pretext of the so-called “security threat” soldiers were directed to carry out a pre-planned attack of revenge on Palestinian civilians. These stories join many other similar ones that Amira Hass and I investigated in Operation Cast Lead. The death toll that continues to rise is steadily reaching the numbers of the massacre of 2009.
More than 1,100 have been killed in Gaza, at least 80 percent of them civilians. Today it is cleared for publication that at least 4 soldiers were killed by a rocket in a gathering area outside of Gaza, and another soldier was killed in Gaza. They join 43 soldiers that have already been killed. We know that more acts of revenge will come soon and it is important that we not stay silent. This is the time to take to the streets and to social media. Demand from your representative wherever you are to stop supporting this massacre and to immediately boycott the state of Israel until the occupation ends, the blockade is lifted and Palestinians will be free. We all want to be in the right place at the right time when history knocks on our door, and history is knocking in Gaza right now. You need to decide on which side you want to go down in history.

just in case you want to see the full article and to be sure its not some anti-israeli propaganda…here is the link:

http://globalvoicesonline.org/2014/08/03/israeli-army-whistle-blower-leaks-account-of-revenge-attacks-against-civilians-by-israeli-troops-in-gazas-shujaiyya/

just so you know, i’ve created a discussion thread on the issue of ISIS.
if you have something to say on that issue then i suggest you go on that thread and make your opinions known
if you wish to discuss the Israel/Palestine situation then stay here

maybe that will put a stop to the needless whataboutery that’s going on here

jambalaya you are right we should treat isis and the idf by the same measure. We should be banning all support for the IDF and roundly condemning them, we should make it a criminal offence to fund the IDF directly or indirectly, we should look into the practicalities of air strikes to curb and restrain the IDF’s activities . We should refuse to recognise their state . Does that make it better for you?

There are 400,000 settlers in the West Bank and the Israeli government expects the number to grow by 50%

No wonder they need more Lebensraum.

Just read this thread over lunch – some really informative stuff and great links (excluding the Chewkbollocks).

There are sufficient intelligent people operating within the Israeli Government, with a good grasp of history and conflict, to fully understand exactly what they doing and what the likely response will be. This IMO makes them the aggressor, wholly accountable and responsible for the situation and the ones who should be internationally sanctioned for their actions.

I agree with Irish Senator David Norris – where are orators and conviction politicians like this when they are needed? He makes some brilliant points.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9MjCqAeWhoE[/video]

rogerthecat – Member

Just read this thread over lunch – some really informative stuff and great links (excluding the Chewkbollocks).

😆 Ya, I may be bollocking but then you lots are going in circle again and again … as if there are new solutions. There are none.

🙄

and who created Hamas? the Israeli government did…in order to undermine and disrupt the authority of the PLO

that’s an oversimplification that takes Hamas’s agency away from them.

chewk everyone is saying you are bringing nothing to the table Please learn from this and actually say something worth saying or shh and let the grown ups discuss.

Again do not mistake this statement as an attempt to get a reply from you and/or interest in your opinion.

^^^ +

Posted in another thread, but relevant here too:

Wonder how many jollies the Bullingdon Boys have had with the IDF…

I dunno, but I’m definitely joining the IDF.

Junkyard – lazarus

chewk everyone is saying you are bringing nothing to the table Please learn from this and actually say something worth saying or shh and let the grown ups discuss.

😯 Crikey, you have just made me read through all the comments again to see if you have something really worth taking note. What a disappointment as I have just wasted my time searching.

“Grown ups” … I like that. 😆

BTW do you have something worth saying because I can’t find any?

Again do not mistake this statement as an attempt to get a reply from you and/or interest in your opinion.

Do I have to have a statement for a statement?

Just leave this here..

http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-japanese-have-some-questions-for-palestine-supporters-and-oh-are-they-awesome/

azku – Member

Just leave this here..
http://www.jewsnews.co.il/2014/08/05/the-japanese-have-some-questions-for-palestine-supporters-and-oh-are-they-awesome/

Excellent link. 😀

Plagiarised from the author …

“If you are so sure that ” Palestine , the country, goes back through most of recorded history,” I expect you to be able to answer a few basic questions about that country of Palestine :

1. When was it founded and by whom?
2. What were its borders?
3. What was its capital?
4. What were its major cities?
5. What constituted the basis of its economy?
6. What was its form of government?
7. Can you name at least one Palestinian leader before Arafat?
8. Was Palestine ever recognized by a country whose existence, at that time or now, leaves no room for interpretation?
9. What was the language of the country of Palestine ?
10. What was the prevalent religion of the country of Palestine ?
11. What was the name of its currency? Choose any date in history and tell what was the approximate exchange rate of the Palestinian monetary unit against the US dollar, German mark, GB pound, Japanese yen, or Chinese yuan on that date.
12. And, finally, since there is no such country today, what caused its demise and when did it occur?

13. You are lamenting the “low sinking” of a “once proud” nation. Please tell me, when exactly was that “nation” proud and what was it so proud of?”

All hail the author!
All hail the author!

😆

Really?

So that’s an excuse for barbaric overreaction by the IDF?

azku interestingly limited non bike topics you have posted on

chewkh do you really get a kick out of people thinking you are a moronic barely literate troll?

Stoatsbrother – Member

Really?

So that’s an excuse for barbaric overreaction by the IDF??

Shhh … don’t change the subject.

Please let grown ups answer those 13 questions first as I want to learn. I am a boy you know. 😆 🙄

azku interestingly limited non bike topics you have posted on

chewkh do you really get a kick out of people thinking you are a moronic barely literate troll?

Hello … the Bike Forum is on the other tab … this is a Chat Forum … 🙄

Cummon! Cummon! How can you call me moronic or troll? Cummon! I mean just because someone has different opinions s/he becomes a troll? 😯

azku – Member

Just leave this here..

What a crap link azku, they apparently think that countries such as Uzbekistan and Pakistan are Arab countries, but not Tunisia and Algeria, geography obviously isn’t their strong point ! 😀

I didn’t bother scrolling beyond that.

Think most people will have already made up their own minds on that one mate. Nothing to do with your opinions. Everything to do with your style. Hope puberty isn’t too traumatic for you.

Stoatsbrother – Member

Think most people will have already made up their own minds on that one mate. Nothing to do with your opinions. Everything to do with your style. Hope puberty isn’t too traumatic for you.

Are you attempting to avoid answering the 13 questions? hhmmm …

Cummon! Cummon! I want to learn.

😆

edit:

Hope puberty isn’t too traumatic for you.

Not for me as I was near death at age 8 or 9 (due to massive internal bleeding) then but more for my parents (especially my mum who had to watch me in a very poor state of health to the point of dying). To be frank I was unconscious in a sleep like stage most of the time. I don’t wish it on you but if you do you will understand the feeling of your love ones worrying over you. So nope. Nothing traumatic.