I find it a bit weird that David Camoron is both a Christian and a Zionist…

Also find it a bit weird that Ed Miliband is a Zionist

and touted potential leader of the Conservatives and Mayor of London Boris Johnson is a Zionist

Almost as if it’s a prerequisite for high level positions within the major parties; wonder if it’s the same the other side of the pond?

I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare where more effort has been made to reduce civilian casualties than has the IDF has been doing in Gaza

Hamas has been trained .. to use the civilian population as a human shield .. as part of their defensive strategy

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw[/video]

@gonzy we’ve both posted so much I’d say its not worth looking further. I will take your word for it and thank you for accepting my apology.

you might call it a “carve up” but it wasn’t terrorism.

so Haganah, Irgun and Lehi were just a bunch of “kum-ba-ya-my-lord” peace loving hippies were they??
here’s silly old me thinking they were a bad bunch because:
– Haganah organized illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine during the Aliyah Bet,
– in 1941 Haganah created the Palmach, an elite commando unit, in preparation of the invasion into Palestine
– along with Irgun and the Lehi formed the Jewish Resistance Movement, in 1945, which served to drive the British out of Palestine and create a Jewish state
– Haganah carried out anti-British operations in Palestine, such as the bombing of the country’s railroad network, and sabotage raids on radar installations and bases of the British Palestine police…whilst also continuing to organize illegal immigration.
– Irgun believed that any means necessary to establish the Jewish State of Israel, including terrorism, was justifiable
– in accordance to Jabotinsky’s “Evacuation Plan”, which called for millions of European Jews to be brought to Palestine at once, the Irgun helped the illegal immigration of European Jews to the land of Israel.
– to preclude the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, under the temporary command of Hanoch Kalai, the Irgun began sabotaging strategic infrastructure such as electricity facilities, radio and telephone lines.
– in 1944 Irgun carried out the bombings of government immigration and tax offices and of British police headquarters
– the Irgun carried out the King David Hotel bombing that killed 91 people
– in 1946 Irgun members kidnapped British officers and beat them in public
– following the 1947 Acre Prison Break, the Irgun kidnapped British sergeants Clifford Martin and Mervyn Paice. Following the executions of 3 Irgun members involved in the prison break, the hostages were hanged in retaliation by the Irgun and their bodies, booby-trapped with an explosive, were later strung up from trees in woodlands south of Netanya.
– Lehi had 3 main objectives; To bring together all those interested in liberation (that is, those willing to join in active fighting against the British); To appear before the world as the only active Jewish military organization; To take over Eretz Yisrael (the Land of Israel) by armed force.
– Lehi conducted small-scale operations such as assassinations of British soldiers and police officers
– in 1946 Lehi adopted a strategy of sending bombs in the mail to many British politicians. Other actions included sabotaging infrastructure targets: bridges, railroads, and oil refineries
– Lehi financed their operations from private donations, extortion, and bank robbery.
– in 1944, Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, the British Minister Resident in the Middle East, in Cairo.
– in 1947, Lehi members drove a truckload of explosives into a British police station in Haifa killing four and injuring 140, in what has been called ‘the world’s first true truck bomb’.
– During the lead-up to the 1948 Arab–Israeli war, Lehi mined the Cairo–Haifa train several times. On 29 February 1948, Lehi mined the train north of Rehovot, killing 28 soldiers and wounding 35. On 31 March, Lehi mined the train near Binyamina, killing 40 civilians and wounding 60.
– Lehi, alongside Irgun and Haganah carried out the Deri Yassin Massacre in 1948, killing 254 villagers with allegations of rape and mutilation being also carried out.
– in 1948, Lehi assassinated UN mediator Count Folke Bernadotte

all this took place before the 1948 Palestine War where more terrorist acts were carried out against the Arab population.

but as you say the, the foundation of Israel was not based on acts of terrorism was it??

You must hate all of the above Jambalaya – since you hate terrorism so much, in your own words: it’s all connected.

“I don’t think there has ever been a time in the history of warfare where more effort has been made to reduce civilian casualties than has the IDF has been doing in Gaza”
Try the British in Afghanistan contrary to the utter rubbish you and ninfan came out with at approx 3% of civilian casualties caused by coalition forces that works out at 90 civilian deaths in the worst year. The IDF culled 1500 in two months.

Hamas has been trained .. to use the civilian population as a human shield .. as part of their defensive strategy

It is an accepted fact that the IDF uses Palestinian cilivans as human shields. Indeed the IDF openly admits training their operatives in what they call the human shield “procedure” :

According to defense officials, the Israel Defense Forces made use of the ‘human shield’ procedure on 1,200 occasions over the last five years, and only on one occasion did a Palestinian civilian get hurt.

An 18-year-old Palestinian was killed in 2002 during one such operation.

IDF to appeal ‘human shield’ ruling

So according to the IDF the “procedure” rarely causes harm to the civilians who are used as human shields.

Which exposes as a complete lie the IDF claim that Hamas have a total disregard for Palestinian civilian casualties. The IDF uses human shields precisely because it knows that it will reduce the possibility of attacks by Hamas.

jambalaya – Member

@binners, Israel was established by a group of nations (or world powers you may say) after the war, you might call it a “carve up” but it wasn’t terrorism.

no, that’s wrong. Israel was established by the Israelis. they created the reality on the ground and others recognized it. the imperial powers had no interest in pushing multilateral solutions (hence the various peace plans’ failure) – the Brits simply buggered off. you play into the conspiracy theorists by suggesting Israel was a creation of foreign powers.

the single most important lesson of Israeli and Palestinian history is that nothing good comes of waiting for the “international community” – you have to do everything yourself.

– Haganah organized illegal Jewish immigration into Palestine during the Aliyah Bet,

disobeying the immigration law of an imperial colonial power? so what? it wasn’t a legitimate law anyway.

– Haganah carried out anti-British operations in Palestine, such as the bombing of the country’s railroad network, and sabotage raids on radar installations and bases of the British Palestine police…whilst also continuing to organize illegal immigration.

so what? the UK was an imperial power. decolonization is a good thing.

Beginning of the end for Hamas ?

The UN is drafting a resolution by UK, France and Germany and the US for the Palastinian Authourity to take over control of Gaza and for an international force to police the border crossings. A international force responsible for ensuring the tunnel network is not re-built and that thre is no weapon smuggling. Abbas of the PA has been in Qatar to try and pursued Hamas to accept the proposals. Clearly much work to be done but perhaps Hamas have undone themselves with this conflict. Without them there is a glimmer of a chance for peace or at least a period of quiet.

Further evidence of infighting and power struggle in Gaza has grown with 18 people reportedly executed by Hamas for collaboration with Israel. It is very likely the IDF had informants give them the location of the senior military commaders killed in the last days as previously none had been ackonwledged as killed, so something changed. It would seem likely political opponents of Hamas would have been responsible

Guardian: Hamas excutes informers, UN resolution

That may be a good transitional solution, but what is going to happen regarding water supply, food rationing and access by air and sea?

Still a long way to go before the conditions in Gaza (and to some extent the Palestinian state) are improved from their current status as an Israeli policed prison camp

Without them there is a glimmer of a chance for peace or at least a period of quiet.

and what peace would that be?
i mean what would it entail?
what would that peace mean for the Palestinians?
would they have all the restrictions lifted?
would all the arrested/detained Palestinians be released?
would the suffering and humiliation of the Palestinians be put to an end?
would that which has been taken away from the Palestinian people be given back to them?
would that include Gaza being rebuilt?
as wrong as Hamas were…and quite rightly they should be held accountable for their actions/inactions during this conflict, will the Israeli government allow itself to be held to the same accountability for its actions?
will this peace change the public opinion of Palestinians by the Israeli public?

or will that be irrelevant so long as Israel is not getting rockets fired at it anymore??

Food and water and other supplies would be allowed in and policied by the international forces and by the PA.

@gonzy it would be a start. I think life is better in the West Bank than Gaza. With Hamas in place the border to Egypt and Israel is going to remain largely shut.

@crankboy – see my earlier posting on casualties, the vast majority are adult male seems likely to me they are militants or assisting militants.

From the Guardian (seems Hamas acknowledge the airstikes are well targetted, hence the execution of 18. The imam doesn’t sound too impartial either, not too hard to imagine rockets stored under his mosque ?

The killings triggered swift condemnation from Palestinian and international human rights organisations. Raji al-Surani, the director of the Gaza-based Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, said: “We demand the [Palestinian Authority] and the resistance [militant groups] to intervene to stop these extra-judicial executions, no matter what the reasons and the motives are.”

Pictures showed a group of men, with their heads covered and hands tied behind their backs, kneeling against a wall. Masked Hamas fighters dressed in black and armed with AK47s pushed to them to the ground before shooting them.

The mosque’s imam asked worshippers to inform Hamas security officials about anyone suspected of behaving strangely, or asking about fighters. “We have to protect our mujahideen [fighters] and back them, not let the Zionist occupation [Israel] easily target them as happened in Rafah with commanders,” he said.

A notice attached to a wall detailed the charges against one suspect. It said he or she had provided “information to the enemy on the places of mujahideen [fighters], standing positions, tunnels, the places of explosive devices, and their houses and rockets”, allowing Israel to target its airs trikes. “And upon that the justice revolutionary verdict was implemented.”

jambalaya – Member

Food and water and other supplies would be allowed in and policied by the international forces and by the PA.

As long as they can overrule Israel’s restrictions, that could work. ie, remove restrictions on dual use, and take the Strip off the diet. Reopen the fisheries and FFS, stop pretending that restricting exports is anything to do with preventing terrorism. Legitimise the blockade, essentially, and make it do what Israel’s always claimed it’s for, rather than being punitive.

Further evidence of infighting and power struggle in Gaza has grown with 18 people reportedly executed by Hamas for collaboration with Israel.

Hardly “evidence of infighting”, Israel has always had its informers, that doesn’t represent infighting – just what money and/or blackmail can achieve.

And I don’t know what you mean by “further”, this whole Israeli bloodbath in which hundreds of innocent civilians were slaughtered was instigated by the Zionists precisely because they were horrified to see a US backed rapprochement between Fatah and Hamas, the Israelis hate the thought of Palestinian unity.

Presumably you do too with your false allegations of infighting.

Whatever the pretext used by Israel the aim of the attack on Gaza was to isolate Hamas and sow disunity.

However in the past when Israel has attacked Gaza and bombed the crap out of it slaughtering countless of innocent civilians, it has resulted in increased support for Hamas. I haven’t seen any evidence to suggest this latest attack will provide a different result.

Not altogether surprising as it can only increase hatred of Israel, which is exactly what it has done throughout the world.

Jambalaya – once again you’ve failed to respond to the fact that Israel was founded on terrorism, truck bombs, letter bombs, assassinations – are these not terrorist actions? Are you anti terrorist or not? It must be hard squaring this cicle in your mind. What are your thought on you terrorist founders? Were their actions justified, do the ends justify the means, what are your thoughts?

^ You with the cute eyes, stop this humour, it’s the weekend, time for serious and prolonged debate 😀

I’m glad the IDF are protecting the poor innocent civilians of Israel

(most of whom have served or will serve for the IDF)

by sniping innocent Gazan’s who might have seen a ‘terrorist’ once:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/despite-what-their-critics-say-israel-is-using-precision-targeting-to-kill-its-enemies-9686198.html

If the Israeli air strikes are well targeted and kill 250 children in two months it is a bit hard to argue that the IDF do not deliberately kill civilians. The IDF used human shields over 1200 times but only one died which suggests that Hama’s have greater respect for innocent lives.

You couldn’t make it up, could you ? Night after night the Israelis talk about Hamas using human shields (to explain away the massive death toll) when Israel itself has been doing the very same thing, and has been found guilty of illegally doing so by it’s own courts, and the government wants to overturn the decision!! I shouldn’t be gobsmacked, but I am.

Jambalaya did you watch Richard Kemp in your link while supporting the IDF’s actions he did say “I don’t have any of the detail I don’t know all of the facts ” . so in favour of the IDF re targeting of civilans we have Kemp against the IDF we have the facts the figures and the accounts of serving IDF soldiers .

that dog will generate enough lift to take off any second

Wonder what Camoron has to say about this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/08/31/israel-west-bank-land-settlement-_n_5744642.html?1409510750

Using three cases of murder as justification for massive expansion of settlements is beyond cynical.

No. There is no conflict as the establishment of Israel was not an act of terrorism. Since it’s inception Israel has faced numerous military attempts to destroy it, these have been repelled and peace agreements signed and honoured. One day Palestinian will join that list.

Think you need to read up on some history jambalaya.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_(group)

‘Lehi and the Irgun were jointly responsible for the massacre in Deir Yassin. Lehi assassinated Lord Moyne, British Minister Resident in the Middle East, and made many other attacks on the British in Palestine.[19] On May 29, 1948, the government of Israel, having inducted its activist members into the Tzahal, formally disbanded Lehi, though some of its members carried out one more terrorist act, the assassination of Folke Bernadotte some months later,[20] an act condemned by Bernadotte’s replacement as mediator, Ralph Bunche.[21] Israel granted a general amnesty to Lehi members on 14 February 1949. In 1980, Israel instituted a military decoration in “award for activity in the struggle for the establishment of Israel,” the Lehi ribbon.[22] Former Lehi leader Yitzhak Shamir became Prime Minister of Israel in 1983.’

So it seems terrorism is sometimes acceptable, or even to be applauded.

I’ve let this thread issue lie as I thought it best. There have been quite a lot of developments including a Hamas exile in Turkey claiming responsibility for the kidnapping, denied by Hamas in Gaza. More executions in Gaza.

@jive the PM was pretty balanced on Israel during his statement yesterday (I listened to it all), both he and Milliband re-iterated Israel’s right to defend itself against rockets and re-iterated that Hamas was a terrorist organisation. But he was also critical of the land seizure saying it was certainly counterproductive with regard to negotiations for a long term peace.

Personally I think the seizure was intended to send a strong message to the Palestinians that the cost of the conflict to them was significant, not just to Hamas in Gaza but also more broadly. A show of strength. The Israeli’s have already apprehended one individual and demolished his home and that of another West Bank resident identified as the culprits for the kidnapping. Israel (and most international participants) want to see the Palestinian Authority regain control. It was reported that the Israeli PM and Abbas met secretly in Jordon recently. I could see the return of the recently seized land as being part of a negotiation.

There is also the issue that there are those in the Israeli government who felt the action in Gaza should have continued, the land seizure is in responce to that.

I find this website very good for the region in general by the way Al-Monitor

Personally I think the seizure was intended to send a strong message to the Palestinians that the cost of the conflict to them was significant, not just to Hamas in Gaza but also more broadly. A show of strength.

Or ‘collective punishment’ as its referred to in the Geneva convention, where its deemed illegal?

already apprehended one individual and demolished his home and that of another West Bank resident identified as the culprits for the kidnapping

In the absence of a trial do they just throw these ‘culprits’ in a pond and see if they float?

In the absence of a trial do they just throw these ‘culprits’ in a pond and see if they float?

It’d have to be a pond in Israel, as Palestine doesn’t have enough water.

Results of Israeli precision air strikes in todays New York Times;

But he was also critical of the land seizure saying it was certainly counterproductive with regard to negotiations for a long term peace.

With stuff like this no wonder Putin will be annexing the Ukraine next week.

@Leku – Russia has Crimera now, it will never be giving it back

@waswas – not sure where that is but the town of Beit Hanoun was the source of the majority of the attack tunnels so they have pretty much flattened the whole place. It may well not be rebuilt which Israel will regard as a victory as it will be very hard to reconstruct the tunnels without the cover of the residential buildings.

Hamas knew the conflict would end like this (in terms of death and destruction) but it didn’t stop them firing hundreds of rockets from Jan to June 2014 to provoke Israel. Their target all along was to try and weaken Israels support from the West

By the way I read an interesting piece yesterday about how Egypt is forcably evicting the residents along the Gaza border and flattening their properties as the area is full of tunnels and they want to try and control the amount of arms smuggling so will be building listening stations and floodlighting the area

Egypt – Rafa

And those extremist right wing Israelis that kidnapped and burnt to death the Palestinian teengaer, will they be having their homes demolished as well? Probably not 🙄

Jambalaya so killing a thousand innocents is OK as long as you get one terrorist in the process ?

OK, soooo, back to paedophile spy rings;

I appreciate the concept sounds bonkers, but given Elm Guest House, Kincora and strong suggestions that the home office has something to hide on Jersey, I’ve been doing plenty of delving. Amongst the various interesting tidbits I’ve found, this really stands out:

http://brynalynvictims.blogspot.co.uk/2013/07/andrea-davidson-speaks-out-north-wales.html

Of course, I can’t personally verify all allegations presented, but the statement above has been presented to the Macur review:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22941356

Hard to fathom the evil that would allow this, but as we’ve seen, people in power are prepared to go to war for their own gain; human lives are just another commodity.

@waswas – not sure where that is but the town of Beit Hanoun was the source of the majority of the attack tunnels so they have pretty much flattened the whole place. It may well not be rebuilt which Israel will regard as a victory as it will be very hard to reconstruct the tunnels without the cover of the residential buildings.

Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.

It does make you wonder why they the isrealites (woahwoah) don’t just move countries .l

To somewhere ike ireland surely a diplomatic solution give northern ireland to the isrealis, problem solved in the middle east, America can keep funding everybody all in one place ,all the money can be sent to one simple location from europe , previously I saw someone mentioned relocating israel to america but that just sucks as an idea I feel

It does make you wonder why they the isrealites (woahwoah) don’t just move countries .l

for the same reason the Palestinians don’t.

Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.

quite so.

Is Jambalaya on a pilot program?

In a campaign to improve its image abroad, the Israeli government plans to provide scholarships to hundreds of students at its seven universities in exchange for their making pro-Israel Facebook posts and tweets to foreign audiences.

The students making the posts will not reveal online that they are funded by the Israeli government, according to correspondence about the plan revealed in the Haaretz newspaper

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/students-offered-grants-if-they-tweet-proisraeli-propaganda-8760142.html

I think its a lot more likely Jambalaya is a recruiter for Hamas.

Jesus, your more of a scumbag than I previously thought.

Really ? How so ? Because I pointed out that the Israelis have flattened a residential area used (abused) by Hamas ? The place was riddled with attack tunnels built under residential buildings, mosques, schools etc ? The tunnels start in a building and then run many kilometers under many other buildings with multiple entrances and exits. Plus during the ground attack there was house to house fighting with Hamas exiting tunnels are various points to ambush the Israelis with anti-tank missiles. When you get that sort of fighting the place is going to get decimated. When the Israeli’s destroy the tunnels there is going to be further material damage. They published some maps of the locations of rocket launches etc and then a second map of where they bombed and the two matched pretty much exactly. Did you see the France 24 video of rocket launchers next to the UN building/hotel where the journalists where staying, the one where they fired the rocket right over his head during a live piece to camera ? Those rockets haven’t been moved a large distance to that firing point they have been stored in the adjacent buildings. 3000 rockets equals 1000+ launching sites ? That’s many many targets and storage locations.

Hamas could have avoided all this by not provoking a conflict by spending the first 6 months of 2014 firing more and more rockets. If you instigate a conflict against a much more powerful enemy this is how its going to end.

@binners I guess the Israelis will wait and see what happens in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine for example before worrying too much about whether the seizure breaches the Geneva Convention or not. As I said I expect the land seized will be an item for discussion in any peace settlement. Its a strong signal, you fight with us, you will inevitably lose and you will end up with less.

Interesting comparison with the Crimea Jambalaya. Ironically, Putin has a much more legitimate claim to Crimea. Steve Bell picked up on it in yesterdays Guardian….