Concussion in rugby…

I found this article about Ben Robinson pretty upsetting

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/13/death-of-a-schoolboy-ben-robinson-concussion-rugby-union

Those of us that have played or watched have no doubt seen or been concussed ourselves. Having played rugby from micro level through to mid twenties until several knee injuries finally stopped me I’m pretty embarrassed (ashamed?) to say that taking a hit and playing on was seen as a badge of honour almost, a sign of a tough player, something to talk about on the bus or bar afterwards.

I don’t have any children but have many friends who played rugby who have said they would be very reluctant to let their kids take the field as the game has become harder, faster with players becoming bigger and te collisions bigger even at age group level. If rugby doesn’t get hold of this issue fast then will the grassroots of the game suffer from lack participation? I’m not sure id be happy if my 14 year old kid came with a strength and conditioning programme, is this due to the professional game alone or would have it developed to this without professionalism?

I read this. Yes a sad story. The solution is education of everyone, refs, coaches, parents, players.

I’ve played on twice after being out cold, that’s in hockey. It’s not just a rugby issue although it’s more common there. The rules/practice in rugby have stated for the longest time (30 years that I am familiar with) that you cannot play on after a concussion. As OP says it’s a badge of honour to try and continue.

It’s become a huge issue in american football over the past decade or more with lots of research being done, lawsuits being filed and a seemingly genuine acceptance that change is needed.

It doesn’t strike me that rugby has quite faced up in the same way yet but it must only be a matter of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concussions_in_American_football

My son (5) plays rugby but I have to be honest, I’m not sure that once they get to proper tackling and hard hits that I really want him to still play which is a problem as he loves it at the moment. I’ve had too many friends absolutely trash their bodies playing rugby.

Hadn’t heard this, but puts me in mind of a friend you plays International rugby (not naming names as he’s obviously very traceable!).

He’s been knocked-out on the pitch a couple of times and his wife has complained that he’s been under a lot of pressure both to play on and not to acknowledge concussion.

Rules were brought-in a few years ago that stated that anyone suffering a concussion couldn’t play again for a while (a month?). While this was obviously brought-in in the interest of player safety, the result has been that teams/physios/players will try to avoid a diagnosis of concussion, as it will immediately result in a month’s “ban”.

When I did my coaching course we were given a load of handouts about concussion and head injuries. I guess the RFU are trying to educate, but that’s the only publicity I’ve seen about it.

education in itself won’t do much so long as the attitude stevo mentioned is the norm – it’ll just end up like doping in cycling – against the rules but turned a blind eye to because everyone does it.

I guess the RFU are trying to educate, but that’s the only publicity I’ve seen about it.

It’s been in the media quite a bit in recent months, due mainly to the successful lawsuit in the NFL. I was under the impression that this is a hot topic.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/nov/07/rugby-union-legal-claims-concussion

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/news/10456191/Concussion-in-rugby-RFU-sets-up-working-group-to-research-dementia-link.html

I stopped playing when I left school (aged 18). That was nearly 20 years ago. The game was very different at all levels then. Hard, always, but not so much emphasis on the hits, and much more about learning organisation and playing with flair.

What I do recall at school – a rugby school, so competition for places and pressure to play – is that while concussion wasn’t talked about, it did seem that if anyone had a head injury they came off the pitch straight away and would be out for a mandatory 3 weeks.

I’m not sure I’d want to play the game these days (either code – I watch a lot of league and that’s got more and more brutal each year).

As a parent – albeit of a girl – that was a very tough thing to read.

I worry about my son wanting to play tugby in the future. Its very sad.

I did my “Rugby Ready” course earlier this year and there’s lots of emphasis on head injury training. Posters up all over the clubhouse. Reporting procedures for any head injuries. And a presumption that a player should leave the pitch if in any doubt about concussion.

There’s always going to be tragic stories, but they are rare.

Risk is minimised so that as many people as possible can benefit from playing the game as possible. Stopping kids playing would be a terrible over-reaction.

I play for and my wife Physios for a National 3 team and she’s very concerned when someone clearly has a head injury and gets them off immediately with the coaches in agreement. However, after the game has finished and when training the week after they are more often than not selected regardless. It’s the pressure on this kind of level where the depth of the squad is OK but not amazing and the player could be crucial to the team’s performance that drives this.

I played up until 8 or so years ago, I remember that when you’d had a concussion you weren’t allowed to play for X weeks (can’t remember what X actually was)
It was at a time just as things were going pro, I also remember that in the mid 90’s things were focusing on physicality, size, speed, strength etc and I know guys who were getting a bit of extra help at the gym. I was only taking creatine to help get bigger/stronger.

I’ve got 2 lads who are both interested in rugby, my eldest has just started playing at high school and I’m happy with that, I won’t let my youngest play until he goes up to high school.

I hope they enjoy playing at school however I’d be happy if they gave it up when they left. It’s completely wrecked me, my knees and back are in bits… It is an incredibly physical sport and the hits are getting bigger & harder.

Interesting debate, I’d hate to see it toned down in any way.

I won’t let my youngest play until he goes up to high school.

really? why?

U6 to U8 is non contact tag rugby. And then contact is phased in at U9 in stages. I coach U7, but will drop back down to U6 when Stoner Jr Jr starts aged 5.

My son (5) plays rugby but I have to be honest, I’m not sure that once they get to proper tackling and hard hits that I really want him to still play which is a problem as he loves it at the moment.

I worried at first – but it’s really silly to.
They are playing against kids the same age and (mostly) the same size and strength as them.
Injuries are very rare.
My kid’s been playing since U9s and he’s now in U11. I’ve seen 2 injuries in that time: A girl hurt her neck in a competitive scrum (no longer in the rules) and my son’s mate broke his arm in training. He’s back after Christmas. (Oh, 3: a cut eye in a recent tournament meant a hospital visit for one of our lads).
Let ’em play, it’s good for them! 🙂

I have played school boy and senior rugby in Ulster including matches against Carrickfergus the school in the article.

I have to say that particularly in school any hint of concussion meant that you were not allowed to train or play for 3 weeks. This was very strictly adhered to and you could only return when the rugby coach signed you off.

I think the problem comes when the player ignores the symptoms and continues to play without alerting the coach /physio to the issue. I am as guilty of this as anyone.

In response to the Op’s question I would say that I would be happy for my son to play rugby, indeed I would be delighted if he did choose to. I would take him to the local club who have a great set up and he would be taught how to play the game properly, for example where to put your head in a tackle. Of course I would worry about injury but not any more than I would worry about him in any other sport.

When I gave up rugby due to work and family commitments I took up cycling, I’ve had worse injuries from cycling than I ever had in 20 years of rugby.

EDIT – It probably doesn’t encourage parents to send their kids to rugby clubs when they see the likes of Smith against the Lions in the summer stagger back onto the field. Thankfully any grassroots rugby I’ve been involved in have been more cautious in their handling of head injuries.

As someone has already said Concussions and more to the point CTE (Chronic Traumatic Encephalophy) is the current BIG issue in US sports primarily Football and Ice Hockey.

The issue with US Football is that up until recently a premium was put on big hits using your helmet rather that proper form tackling, this combined with a culture of playing hurt/lying to doctors meant that people have properly messed their brains up.

The slightly perplexing thing is that players have be diagnosed post mortem with CTE that have never reported a “concussion” ie being knocked out. However people say that a big hit or tackle gives them a “ding”, when they “see stars” or get “their bell rung” but don’t lose conciousness.

I used to play US Football in the UK College League and UK Senior league and I stopped because of concussions. I looking back got knocked out (just for a couple of seconds) twice and had more “dings” than I would like to remember.

Rugby whilst it has a playing hurt culture, you don’t intentionally hit with your head. Someone gets knocked out it’s generally due to a player’s head making contact with a knee or a punch being thrown. But how many “dings” does a flanker take a game? Not as many as a Linebacker but how many is safe and how many is dangerous?

Would I let my kids play US Football? – really not sure, they are making the game safer with rule changes in the states but I’m not sure if those same rule changes are being implemented over here.
Would I let my kids play Rugby? – yeah probably.

You can’t wrap yourself or your kids up in cotton wool, would rather they be active and manage the risk than them being fat XBOX addicts that never go outside.

Lots of further reading here:
http://mmqb.si.com/tag/head-trauma-in-football-a-special-report/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_traumatic_encephalopathy

And I would highly recommend seeking out the film League of Denial and also the book that spawned it of the same name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Denial

I think that a lot more care is now taken compared to when I played at school. I dont recall any serious injuries back then apart from when ‘Rupey’ got his lower leg stamped on off the ball by some scumbag. horrible to see nothing done by the ref should have been a police issue really! My youngest 12 and middle 17 daughters both play union and love it. There are often bumps and scrapes stud shaped bruises etc. The Coaches are all very careful about head and neck injuries and at the last 2 Yorkshire U18 games Air ambulances have been called. I think a 2 week layoff is maintained for concussions.not read the article but know from personal experience that even a footy knock a bout can end in brain injury I had a Hemorrhage 2 weeks after heading a heavy wet old ball when well hungover and as such even a simple fall and bump off a bike could have the same effect in some cases. Since then I have taken reasonable efforts to avoid banging my head (apart from cycling/canoeing climbing etc)I am happy enough for the girls to carry on, they tend to grow out of these things eventually, usually after a big outlay on kit!

As a recently retired player and ref,even in the 90’s at a decent level;if you were concussed you couldn’t play for 3 weeks. The ref took name and number and it was registered the same way a card would have been. It is at the pro level,with BoD being a good recent example of how it can be flouted. I am more worried about my knees and shoulder than head trauma TBH.

As OP says it’s a badge of honour to try and continue.

He’s been knocked-out on the pitch a couple of times and his wife has complained that he’s been under a lot of pressure both to play on and not to acknowledge concussion.

This is perhaps where the culture is arse about tit. The honour should belong to the rest of the players on the pitch who, out of sense of gamesmanship, should act in the better interests of the injured player. When someone’s taken a hit to the head those around them should really be taking the decision to play on out of that players hands as you can’t trust that its and informed decision.

I don’t disagree with the idea of not wrapping them up in cotton wool – I’d have no issue with my kids mtbing for example – it’s just that Rugby is fundamentally a hard contact sport and as I’ve said, I know plenty of people who’ve wrecked themselves doing it.

Actually I’m not that concerned with them playing as kids but once they hit 14-15 and suddenly start growing in size and strength, that’s where I’d be concerned.

Been coaching u11 and u12s for 12 years. The worst injury in any match that I have been coaching gas been a staved finger. It’s a shame that rugby is seen to be incredibly brutal as many kids are getting channeled towards football, which seems to turn them into whingers. Must of the stuff that can lead to injury in these age groups has been phased out. All tackles are waist ore below. And scrum caps are encouraged.

@clubber – this is where we need to follow the new Zealand model. Children/teens compete in age and weight groups.

Thinking about anecdotes, there was a lad in my year at school who was concussed so often he was permanently prevented from playing by 5th form age*. Shame, as he was a pretty fearless openside flanker.

*medical advice of danger of permanent damage IIRC. Presumably the school would no longer be insured, so he couldn’t play.

Same as stoner, I coach u8’s and the guidelines, especially for kids rugby is very clear about the head injury risks etc. It’s a shame some of the older age group coaches still seem stuck in the past.

The worst example I’ve seen was George Smith in the Lions test. That would have been criminal negligence if he’d gone down.

Surprised by the lack of bad injuries people saw. I can still remember the crack of a few bones breaking

BTW, perhaps in contradiction to my post above, I played rugby for about 20 years and loved it. Would happily encourage my kids to play.

I don’t remember too many terrible injuries at junior/amateur level. A handful of broken bones, a few concussions. I think players were (and probably still are) more worried about spinal trauma than head trauma. There were a few “precautionary” spinal-board moments while I was playing and that was always an axious time, but fortunately nobody ever had any serious consequences.

I often think back to when we started playing hurling as kids – yeah, great idea, give a bunch of young boys some sticks and let them get on with it. 😆 They were interesting times – we’d even be allowed to play if we’d left our helmets at home. In any case, the early helmets were a pile of crap anyway. As dangerous as it looks to the uninitiated, we all came through it unscathed – a bruised knuckle, or shin was a more common injury than anything to the head – it was drilled into us from the start that no matter what happened, the stick was only to be used to hit a ball or another player’s stick. Anybody who did otherwise was rooted out quite quickly.

American Football is an interesting one – take a look at the backgrounds of most offensive and defensive lines – mostly from (relatively) poor black neighbourhoods where the risk of injury is worth it. The middle classes are opting out of high school football because of the risk of injury. The last time I read, it seemed that NFL (with all the protection) was the hardest hitting sport man-on-man. I’m not sure if that’s still the case. As lhommedunord says, RL can be brutal these days.

I’ll be taking my lad to rugby when he’s old enough because let’s face it, there’s no point teaching him the far more skillful game of hurling, and the risk is relatively low. By the time he starts full contact, given the current emphasis on concussion, I’d imagine it’ll be even stricter.

Sad story in the OP though. 🙁

Started rugby at 7 (full contact in those days, with proper 3 man scrums) and quit at 32. Arthritic shoulder, back injuries that give me sciatica, separated muscle and tendon above the knee and yes the odd minor concussion.

However the big concussion I got was coming off a bike – week in hospital for that one- and the big knee injury was hillwalking.

I believe dancing (possibly ballet) is the most dangerous athletic activity – though that may be made up.

Watching telly is definitely dangerous, especially if it’s Jeremy Kyle.

I suppose it depends on what criteria one uses to judge, but being a National Hunt Jockey pretty much leaves most sports behind.

Sorry, I think what I was trying to say was that there are risks in rugby, but also there are risks in all sports, and the biggest risk is not doing any exercise. Plus, at the end of the day, not doing anything with any risk, even if it were possible to avoid all risk, would be pretty boring.