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british xc
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SanchoFree Member
no its not penalising, its line choices to gain an advantage.
its pretty common in lots of other events.the skill factor comes in to it over and above simply fitness.
hoopdriverFree MemberOK, another bonkers idea:
How about a lap consisting of a singletrack climb into a multi-line decent. Grid the start on combined weight of bike and rider (heaviest first) which then goes straight into a bottleneck.
Call it “Revenge of the Bifters”
SanchoFree MemberHoopdriver, I dont understand why you are being a cock about this.
Im simply looking at ideas to make a simple XC race a bit more interesting and to make skill a factor in the race rather than simply fitness.
njee20Free MemberBut skill is a factor, and I guess that’s the issue. Admittedly less so than DH, but isn’t that one of the differences? Fitness is more important, but skill less so.
That’s not to say that skill isn’t required, nor that races aren’t sometimes decided on skill.
I’d be interested to see how any system worked out, and would wish you well in trying it, but I think it would introduce a significant degree of unfairness.
hoopdriverFree MemberSorry, wasn’t meant as a pop.
Was almost serious. The problem I found when I was I was unfit was that I would be ratcheted down the order by people climbing fast and then getting stuck behind them on the downs.
SteveBbrainFree MemberAt Gisburn last year I made the decision while recceing the course to walk the tricky (in my mind) steppy section about 1/2 way round lap. I had ridden it but reasoned doing 10-12 laps or so I would more than likely crash once at least, which may have been the end of my race. I reckon it cost me at least 10 secs a lap, but over the 12 hours I could live with that. I did of course ensure I kept out of the way of better riders (some of whom I passed again on the next climb).
Oldgit. I think your comment about age ie no bmx as a nipper, is a good one and explains why some of the jumpy type riding just don’t come naturally to me.
SanchoFree MemberIm not sure on what you mean by unfair.
the idea being that if you cant ride a section then you go back and take an alternative slower route or try again.Having done some xc racing the complaints ive come across are that riders run sections rather than ride them, simply because its quicker, but if you were penalised for running then the whole idea is that a more skilled rider gains advantage. thus equalizing the skill/fitness a bit.
Im still not sure on how it will work, but any helpful ideas are welcomed.
not the Biftas thing please.SanchoFree MemberHoopdriver I know what you mean, and for me.
Id like the downs to be wide enough with line choices that the less fit rider can gain some advantage.
And again trying to equalise the balance between skill and fitness.
I know that the fastest riders will be both fast and skilled, but the best bit about racing is the middle order (where I usually race) where people are racing more closely and any slight advantage gained through skill is rewarded.
Mike_DFree MemberI’m not sure alternate lines/stop-go penalties/other weirdness is really necessary. There really aren’t many courses out there where a rubbish but strong rider will match an equally strong but non-rubbish one. The more skilled rider will always have an advantage, all else being equal. There are certainly elements of course design that it’d be good to see — I think that sections that are quicker to run than ride should be left for cyclocross 😉 Descents with plausible overtaking points would also be good.
On the other hand, if people have put the effort in to get fast, it seems only fair to reward that come race day 🙂
hammeriteFree MemberI’m new on this forum, but quite interested by this thread.
With regards to the OP and his club, all clubs are made up of volunteers, club coaches will be volunteers. Unfortunately you’re unlikely to get a coach out with you if they’re not interested in riding XC (whether at a fast pace or easy pace), or they just don’t have the time to do more. Perhaps there’s no one confident or capable enough to organise a ride. Perhaps you could approach the club about them funding you to become a coach. They may also be worried about the boundaries set out in by their coaching accreditation. I’m close to completing a BC L2 caching qualification – we’re not allowed to coach on the road, and we’re not allowed to coach in a technical environment.
A club is there for the members, all members are entitled to do what they want. If you want to go out for a hard XC ride (don’t call it a club training ride) and invite others along to it. It could be that the club won’t support it as there is no demand. It’s up to you to help create the demand so that you can get the support of the club committee.
I’m a member of a road club, mainly time trialling, but more and more we have members road racing. Last winter a few of us did our first CX races/season. This year we’re hosting a league race. I have intentions to race XC once the CX is over with. Last winter we started up a weekly evening mountain bike ride, stopped over the summer, but it’ll start up again soon. There was no club help in starting up the MTB rides or attending the CX races, but once a few of us were doing it the club gave it’s full support.
As for money in road racing. I recently finished 3rd in a 4th cat road race. I got an envelope with £20 in it. Not a lot, but I was thrilled with my first ever race winnings 😳 😆
Oldgit – I gather from your posts that you may be local to me as you’ve keep mentioned Woburn. I’m a member of a local club and would be keen to know your MTB race plans, and could possibly provide some help. Can you message me? (if it’s possible – trying to get to grips with this forum).
oldgitFree Memberhammerite there’s no email in your profile. As soon as saw the bit about hosting a cx race I wondered.
What club are you in?The leage doesn’t have a venue for round one, and we have been asked to try and sort that. We should know tonight.
WE have a venue at Liscombe Park near Soulbury. It was intended for the cross, but it a bit too rough.
oldgitFree MemberAh haa
I was going to target some of your riders this year. I was carrying a massive injury last year (that’s what happens when you stand under a 600kg pallet) One of your guys got a wheel on me at the end of the VC10 so he is in my sights. That’s what it’s about though.
Let me know if you need help regards XC racing, I’ve got a pool of riders in an informal club that are gagging to give it a go.hammeriteFree MemberI’ve just looked at the results and I think I’ve pinpointed your name based on the 1 second time gap at that race 🙂 The guy who had you is a pretty good road racer. But it was his first ever CX race and he was riding his Dad’s ancient cross bike that hadn’t been used for years.
He’s invested in some new hardware for the coming season, but still admits to struggling when it comes to handling and technique.
I e-mailed the e-mail address in your profile if that works.
cows_in_carsFree MemberIn response to hammerite post re the club, yes i totally understand that these people are volunteers and certain qualifications entitle you to coach one aspect and not another. I did contact as well as the general coaching coordinator the MTB coach. I said in my email to them that I totally understood if they were not able to do so but I got no reply at all. My basic outline for training sessions was to use small loops around the local parks/hills, so no one would get left behind or have to ride slowly. Just a warm up ride to the circuit and then just bomb about the loop and go home. Or maybe find a good hill and do a hill climb session or even find a good downhill and do some timed sessions down there. All I wanted them to do was to come along and give a few pointers e.c.t.
I know I could look at becoming a coach, I do consider it but I not for this club, I found it a little on the unfriendly side, generally, and thats not what I feel makes for a good, encouraging atmosphere.
I think grass route is the way to go for getting people involved and more involved the more likely it is for media (cycling media esp) to take an interest. I think one of the best races I have ridden in is one where you turn up in a car park pay a few pounds and race, everyone starts together and there are a few prices but nothing major, just a good have a go atmosphere.
In terms of courses being not that interesting/technical I can’t say that in 20 years I have really ridden that may courses that I thought that was boring, one or two, I like njee20 aren’t sold on the MM course but it’s all right. The was one course that was almost all single track, it rained and that was boring just because it was impossible to get any speed up.
No one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don’t seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn’t be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don’t race?
On the same note people seem pretty happy with their 5 inch bikes at trail centres, so why are they using that as an excuse. Really need to get away from bikes being used as excuses to ride a certain way.oldgitFree MemberTell him I’ll be out to kick his arse 😀 bloody whipper snapper overtaking an old man with a walking stick.
njee20Free MemberNo one seems to moaning about trail centres but they don’t seem to be that technical really. Plus hit things at speed and everything gets harder. I am no way saying that courses shouldn’t be technical, I prefer it when they are but but is this really the reason why people don’t race?
Agreed, plenty of XC courses on a par with your average trail centre, and generally ridden more ‘on the ragged edge’ or whatever! IMO that’s what a good course should be, one which can be ridden by most, but gets hard to ride flat out.
ChristoGingerFree MemberWhy don’t we introduce a new race format. I suggest similar to an enduro, with timed uphill sections and timed downhill sections.
The system is points based and points are awarded based on the position the riders finish relating to their time on that section.
Each course must have equal uphill and downhill sections (if not certain downhills or uphills may be points loaded to reflect this)
Downhills and to some extent uphills should be suffiently technical/fast/rocky/drops/jumps (hardish) etc but with slower chicken runs.
This should hopefully cater for all types of rider as the points system should level the playing field between xc fitness, technical riding and skills/balls.
The points sytem makes the fastest climber on a climb (making 5 minutes on a climb) equal to the fastest descender on a downhill (making 20 seconds on a downill). So points could be..
Climb 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so onDescent 1
1st place =35pts
2nd place= 34pts
And so onSo best all rounder should win really.
MikeWWFree MemberThe British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.cows_in_carsFree MemberI think the above(ChristoGinger) is a creative idea although going down that route I would go down the Nordic skiing route, where they get points that convert to seconds advantages for the xc race the next day…I believe the sort of idea behind the STW weekender.
BUT, I think as said before, it’s not really about coming up with new race formats it’s wondering how to attract people to race xc and ultimately, in the future, have some depth of talent that matches the DH boys and girls at a world level. Not sure this is going to be improved with new formats, other than possibly formats that more closely such as what already exists, short track/elimination format and endurance racing.
Not to put down your or anyone else, efforts tho!
cows_in_carsFree MemberMikeWW – Member
The British XC scene is alive and kicking IMO. Courses are getting shorter to be more spectator friendly and definitely more technical at the National level. The leading guys in Youth/Junior/Expert/Masters/Elite level are both exceptionally fit and extremely talented riders. Probably the biggest issue is the lack of UCI points available in the UK (certainly next year) which reduces the chances of UK riders racing at World Cup level.
One of the other challenges is that the roots of XC racing here are in recreational mountain biking which seems to be speed and fitness adverse and certainly disorganised by nature. By contrast the road scene is race/fitness focussed with cyclo-cross a natural extension to this.
If clubs can be persuaded to start to start to organise mountain bike races in the same way as they do the other cycling disciplines then it would help significantly.POSTED 8 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST
Agree! mostly!, the riders are talented and don’t mean to put them down but in the elite mens for example, they aren’t able to give Liam and Oli much competition, who in turn are both a bit off the world cup pace. The UK’s depth of real top quality isn’t there,(mostly) or at least not yet.
MikeWWFree Memberc in c
Just not sure you are in touch with things. UK School Games at the weekend now includes mountain biking. Youths were desperate to get on the teams. More and more club youngsters are interested in mountain bike racing. British Cycling have RSRs set up to further develop mountain bike skills. Do you got to any of the National Series?cows_in_carsFree MemberSorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven’t been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something…oldgitFree MemberI really just don’t get this. Why can’t people just race XC as it is. How do you develop talent by changing the whole format of an event to the rest of the world.
XC has been going for years, it’s pretty pure racing and all the guys and girls work hard at it.
I know you’ll all say ‘well it’s attitudes like yours that stop people entering’ If you want to race by your own choice then just turn up and race if you come last come back next week and do better, but don’t expect the whole world to change things for you because it’s not fair letting fit and fast XC racers have the advantage.
Do we do this in any other sports?I’ve never done down hill, I’d love to have a go and I know they’ll have to leave the keys under the mat for me to lock up with I’d be so slow, but not for one single minute would I expect anyone to change things so me as an inept downhiller would be on a par with the elite riders.
ChristoGingerFree Memberi was thinking purely points to keep time out of the equation. I was hoping that it would level the playing field to make it cater for all riders – you dont have to be super fit to get a good place if your good at downhill, however uping your fitness/speed would place you better.
conversly being fit fast uphill does not mean you finish well automatically, you also need to have the skills downhills.
it would prove the best all rounder mtbiker i think. Aiming to appeal to both xc riders, downhillers or like most folks those that fit somewhere inbetween.
pistonbrokeFree MemberEchoing MikeWWW’s comments, I was at the UK Shools Games in Wharncliffe at the weekend and saw 36 Girls and 60+ Boys up to 16 racing in X Country, Dirt Crit, Uphill and Downhill events over the 3 days. The racing was very competitive and they seemed to be having a great time. I help/coach a 13 year old girl who came second in the 2 XC events in a field full of 16 year olds. Hopefully some of these riders will carry on to bigger things.
cows_in_carsFree MemberJust encase there’s any confusion I totally agree with you oldgit, I don’t think it should change, I can see some merit in running closely related formats (which to me, endurance racing and short track/eliminator events still fall under the banner of xc) to attract people to the idea of xc. But don’t see the need to change it from what it is, a race across country.
mrmoFree MemberCan you imagine Mtbers entering a hill climb competition? There used to be such events but no longer.
ChristoGingerFree Membernot hill climbs as such (that would suck) but ran over a normal course – like an enduro- but the hill sections (with flat bits of normal trail and such) and downhill sections are timed much like the enduro downhill sections are now.
mrmoFree MemberChristoginger, why would a pure hill climb event suck? we run pure downhill events?
MrAgreeableFull MemberI think being fit is seen by some people as cheating. We keep coming back to this false idea of riders who are technically amazing but don’t enter XC races because they can’t use their skills. IME it’s simply not true. Even in a pure DH race physical fitness is a big advantage.
oldgitFree MemberI remeber the last MTB hillclimb I did nearly did for me, I actually crept off and had my mobile ready to ring 999.
MrAgreeableFull Membernot hill climbs as such (that would suck)
Anyone done the Frome Cobble Wobble? On paper it should be the worst value event ever (a fiver for 30 seconds of riding), in reality it was awesome fun. The winner last year wasn’t your stereotypical whippet either.
MikeWWFree Membercows_in_cars – Member
Sorry, maybe being stupid but not quite sure what direct connection the above response has to me saying that at elite level we are lacking real depth of talent?
Totally see in the long term the above will help and agreed with you about all but the top elite level racers.
The above sounds great and no I haven’t been to a national series race in a long time, they are all rather far from were I live.
I apologise if I am missing something…
I think when you are so out of touch with the racing scene it is difficult to have an informed opinion. We have people like Kenta Gallagher, Grant Ferguson, Annie Last, Beth Crumpton who are starting to show on the world stage and the only way to compete at Elite level is to catch people in their teens.Have you any idea what it takes to become a world class XC mountain biker?
Also if anyone thinks that you can compensate for lack of fitness with technical skills you are misguided. The better guys have amazing technical ability.TheBrickFree MemberI haven’t raced xc since I was a teenager, this thread has inspired me to give it ago again.
RE: A timed points up and down hill race, it could be a nice event but it wouldn’t be xc, part of the point of xc is you are racing other people rather than the clock, it makes a big difference.
I remember there being some off road hill climb events when I was young, are any still around or is it only the road ones now? Speaking of which Catford HC is next month!
cows_in_carsFree MemberI think when you are so out of touch with the racing scene it is difficult to have an informed opinion. We have people like Kenta Gallagher, Grant Ferguson, Annie Last, Beth Crumpton who are starting to show on the world stage and the only way to compete at Elite level is to catch people in their teens.Have you any idea what it takes to become a world class XC mountain biker?
Eh not really sure why you seem to be attacking me? I am well aware of all those guys, I might not be at the races but still follow them in some form or other. I am in no way saying that they are rubbish but I do feel a bit disappointed watching the world cup races that there is no British presence, apart from Annie Last (and David fletcher and Grant Ferguson in the u23/juniors but we don’t get to see them), near the front of the field. And as I said the depth of talent compared to downhill is not there.
And although I have no personal experience of aiming to be a world class xc mountain biker I imagine that hard doesn’t even come close. I suspect that it also just as hard (apart from the improved image/media coverage) to be a world class downhiller. I am not anti british cycling. It’s hard enough just trying to be an fast-ish amateur racer.
In terms of all the stuff that’s put on for the youth riders, I think that’s great and would have to say my club for youth riders is AWESOME. But what concerns me, is that, certainly within my local club, (maybe BC is better, and very happy to be told otherwise), there is nothing for them to go onto. They are given endless help and support, training sessions e.c.t but once they are past that age if they want to continue to ride and train off road there is nothing but a slow plod round the hills. I work a lot with young people, not in a sports context but know how so many find it so hard when they loose that support/structure and feel there is nothing for them and thus give up on pretty much anything. I am not saying that we shouldn’t be helping youth riders in the slightest (and they will all give up or with al the help in the world they won’t give up) but what concerns me is the middle ground. I tried to help the club fill that middle ground but it wasn’t really that interested.
Plus the future of the sport doesn’t need to just come from youth riders, hence why I think the lack of grass routes/local races is a problem. There could easily be someone out there that is world class potential but just needs an opportunity to have a go. A national level race is not always the best place for that, it’s not a bad place, but when I started out I remember looking at national level races and being a bit scared to enter.
I am not trying to slate the top riders we have and happy to admit that my views are just that my views/ experiences but I am not with out knowledge of the sport, I am pretty geeky!
ChristoGingerFree Membermrmo – it would suck if that were all the race consisted of in my opinion as riding uphill is not very exciting,challenging maybe, oh and its hard;)
crikeyFree MemberSo the answer seems to be stop riding so quickly, and let the chubsters go first down all the hills?
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