The problem is that in a good head down XC position you can’t see where you are going with a peak on your helmet.

😛

I know what you mean about ‘technical’ and ‘needing balls’ being different – a jump or a drop is more the latter, people either do it or not, they’re polarised and it doesn’t really benefit the race all that much.

What’s wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn’t like it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t ‘benefit the race’.

Wrecker: Good points. My mountain biking enjoyment is really an extension of the several other things I do ( surf, windsurf, snowboard, mountain walk). Not driven by a constant competetive desire.
However time after time I come across folk who do seem that way inclined, but “xc racer” is not a tag they want. I still think to bring xc back it needs to re-invent itself.
I’m really going now, have only tried to look at this from an outsider’s / potentially interested p.o.v !

So you want lees people partaking in MTBing so that the few can be more competitive?

Who said that?
How does adding another event that may be suitable for some riders dilute the interest in MTB’ing? I think you have missed the point (or mine certainly)

I’m not really sure where that comes from, but it still seems to be a common perception of XC races by the masses.

+1

i only started racing when i had no-one to ride with and my mates went to a race – I was very pleasantly surprised that it was actually a fun course.

What’s wrong with mountain biking needing balls as well as skill and fitness? Just because you wouldn’t like it doesn’t mean it wouldn’t ‘benefit the race’.

I didn’t say anything about what I like or don’t, not really sure why you’re getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can’t do it/am losing time, it’s an area for improvement, which is good to identify.

I just meant that a lot of people think XC races should be made more technical. By which they mean putting in a gap jump, or a 4ft drop. That doesn’t really enhance the race. People either do it, or they don’t. If they don’t they may try, screw it up, walk down it and get in the way. Or… they make take a chicken run and lose a few seconds. If you have a ‘technical’ descent a lot more time can be lost.

It needs balls regardless, it’d be daft to suggest that it doesn’t. Take a newbie/non cyclist around the Dalby WC course, there’ll be sections they’ll almost certainly not like the look of.

some points

How can you improve things? i guess money at the sharp end, make winning races pay, but you need to get people in at the bottom which means races close to where people live, and lots of them. Some will get the bug and progress others won’t.

Our prizes are all via the generous sponsors
Racers £200 in Leisure Lakes Vouchers/ race (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)
prize parity for the women
Racing Diva’s £200 in Cooksons Cycles Vouchers (£100,£50,£25, £25 prime)

Weekend Warriors sponsored by Big Bear Bikes (£80,£40,£20)

Series prizes of Hope SPXC6 wheelsets, Brakesets, lights etc

chicken feed? (all on a £10 entry (series preentry))

If we were to return to that elitist attitude where people carry their bikes over bits because it’s faster than riding, we’d see a massive decline in the sport IMO.

our courses are as technical as it gets for XC at a local level and if you walk you lose, our numbers are up this year

Hold a ‘local’ event that’s technical and requires riders to be highly skilled and capable, and I’ll guess you wont have many show. Different if you bigged it up and made it a one off, but we are talking sustainable racing.

Hold a ‘classic’ XC race that will suit everyone and you’ll get people turning up week after week. Chuck in a ten minute kids race and you’ll be able to justify taking along the other half and taking the time to race.

Very technical courses would still benefit a few people, just a different few to having no technical features, and would probably alienate more people, as I’ll wager people are more likely to get disheartened and not come back because a course was too difficult compared to one which was too easy.

we run two courses, one technical, one less so, requires lots of thought, signage and marshals. Our numbers are up this year, we are trying to get accessible local coaching off the ground, we are seeing riders progress, there are a group of talented kids now racing etc

Cheap, regular, local races have to be the way forward. Beastway, Matchams years ago, that kind of thing.

£10 a race cheap enough?

We shouldnt be scared of promoting racing because we scare people off. People need to feel that they can join in but if its not for them then fine. Doesnt mean we shouldnt do it.

+1

oldgit and Sancho get in touch, we want to help other (not for profit) organisers to get off the ground (essentially because we want cheap races to enter, we seem to be busy on race day at our local series 😉 )

The only way to get something done is to do it yourself.

if you want a local race “scene” you need to do the work and put into the sport “ask not what your sport can do for you etc……” even if it’s only cajoling someone to marshal at the event you are racing at

2011 series finale 2nd October riders and marshals wanted

http://www.brownbacksracing.co.uk

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don’t want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don’t really help.

Just trying to make a point there when I said the farmers field. Most are pretty technical, in fact I’ve bottled a few 😳
And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.
The problem with bringing in technical stuff which we all love is that it becomes difficult to race and you tend to end up with just a fast preccession. Like racing F1 on a circuit only the width of one car.
We are also talking about ‘sustainable’ racing i.e week in week out. so you need venues that people can come to each week. Then think of the wear and tear that causes.
Think about the realities.

And please remember XC racing is man against man first, then terrain.

Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don’t want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don’t really help.

Nobody has suggested that racing is objectionable, certainly not me.
I’d say it’s optional and comments from those who do race demeaning all those who don’t will always provoke a response.

£10!
In all seriousness I want to offer easy access midweek racing for like minded folk, experienced and newbies alike.
I have a pretty okay course. The simple stuff is hacking ground, there’s a good section of dense woodland singletrack, a fast gravel service road and part of it runs over a tank driving area. Weather would have a massive influence on the race. I just need to check to see if I can keep drainage ditches and fallen trees in.
That for a fiver.
Good parking, gym with cafe on site. In fact you’ll get cheap membership so could have a swim or sauna or whatever afterwards.
Race numbers, but places for only the top 3 or 10. If I can sort full timings for everyone I will.
Prize money would be a % of the days takings.
Mobile bike mechanic with spares on site.

The idea is it would just give people a chance to have a blast. Then if they like it they can try other series like FNSS and the Summit Series. Then hopefully they’ll travel to the Gorricks and Thetfords races

Ah! maybe for you and I but not for the majority of people you would want to attract I suspect

I dunno, people do feel a sense of achievement when they beat the bloke who always beats them, or they get the top half or whatever. In the shakedown after a race more people talk about having been top 10/20/half/not last than having cleaned the whole course. People are realistic, and many are happy to race for 39th in Fun.

what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.

my plan was for multiple line choices based on skill level
the more skilled rider obviously getting an advantage both up and down, and for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop – go penalty for being a pussy.

Personally I think it will be great. Like I said I have the private land with all the above so sustainability is not an issue, just need to get organising.
different weeks will see variations of the course and could include less technical events for pure xc. or cross.

The willy waving thing gets to me sometimes.
It appears to me that blasting down a hill as fast as poss is greeted with acclaim and respect (quite rightly). But then someone like myself (who’s not right clever on the techy downhill stuff) that likes the physical challenge and hammers up a hill or hits a long flattish swoopy section as fast as poss. gets labelled as a willy waver?

I’m also from a running background having run competitively for a ‘club’ way back. The whole ethos of running clubs is totally different from mtb clubs, where the majority do it for ‘fun’ as opposed to viewing it as a ‘sport’. I’m quite happy to enjoy both sides nowadays, riding with a group taking lots of time riding not very far, playing about on interesting trails etc. But if I’m honest I get more enjoyment still when I’m pushing myself really hard on challenging (physically) terrain.
I suppose I try and wave my willy in private now, or with another consenting adult

what Im hoping to achieve is a course that incorporates fire roads tech rooty woods, rock sections and some fast flowing singletrack.

So an XC course?

for riders wanting to carry their bikes through technical sections there would be marshalls on hand to give you a ten second stop – go penalty for being a pussy.

Competent rider A attempts technical section, gets line wrong, stalls, gets off and walks. Then what? Furthermore, competent rider B behind sees floundering rider A on the ‘a line’ and takes the now faster chicken run. Is he stopped for 10 seconds? Should he just stop on the trail and wait for the obstacle to be clear?

Serious practicality issues to implement, better to just make the chicken run slower.

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

looks like a muddy field to me

Going a bit OT:
I think the future of “XC” may be in long weekend/stage races: XC, XC time-trial, enduro, light DH kind of thing- all on one bike.

It would require the pro organisers to do it.

The problem I have with XC is a lack of commitment on the day: I have had an XC race 10 miles up the road and not gone ‘cos it’s raining/boring course/not feeling fit.

Look at the turnout that enduro-marathons can get with the right promotion.

Wants to be something that people would put in their diary, pre-enter for and need some form of training commitment.
Interesting riding, a challenge, competitive, social and would suit the 5″ masses!

(Nice one Brownbacks- too far away for me though)

Go for it sancho.

What’s technical is hard to establish. I consider myself technically inept, but that’s my age – no BMX or mountainbike whilst growing up.
That said I’ve been out with folk who have reluctantly ridden on my patch because it’s a bit lame only to find them walking behind me. So we might be under estimating XC riders a bit. I’ll tend to do things in races that I’d never do in real life?
Which begs the question, if courses were to be even more technical who would ‘win’ in the long run? I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets. There’s almost an admission that technical riders might not be as fit and fast as the common perception of the XC racer is. So…would the technical riders work on fitness and would the classic racer become more skilled.
I’ll stick my neck out, I think the fitter rider would find it easier to learn skills, or could find them quicker than his counterpart could match his fitness.

Cuppa anyone 😀

I didn’t say anything about what I like or don’t, not really sure why you’re getting so aggressive about it? Personally I derive a lot of pleasure from a technical course, or a particular section. If I can’t do it/am losing time, it’s an area for improvement, which is good to identify.

I wasn’t being aggressive at all.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course – with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Lets rein this back in a bit. Comments from folk who don’t want to race and see it as an objectionable side of the sport don’t really help.

Not sure if you’re referring to me – I am interested in racing and have taken part in the gravity enduro events before (so not ‘proper’ racing). I’m never likely to be fit enough to compete in an XC race, but probably would do if I thought it would be fun. The attitude of some posters in here makes me think that it probably wouldn’t be much fun.

problem is that running a technical section is often the fastest option up a hill and sometimes down, and I dont want that to happen so need to sort a way of stopping this.

I can see why you’d want to, but the problem is people trying and failing, and whether you penalise them, which will cause more problems than just having a chicken run that allows people to take a few seconds penalty in exchange for the easier line.

At the Dalby WC some of the top women didn’t do Worry Gill (including the winner IIRC) – just decided the 3 second penalty was better than the potential of mashing your face up.

In the Elite mens NPS race a very well known enduro rider of these parts didn’t ride it either on at least one lap. Not a case of can’t, he’s a far better rider than me, and I did it, it’s a very difficult balance to strike. Be interested to see how a penalty system worked.

Rock sections that are technically challenging to ride up and very steep with drops on the way down, rooty wood sections on steep descents that are difficult to ride with drops and gap jumps.
But always with an easy option.
Ive been riding a lot of motorbike enduros and the line options are an excellent way of gaining an advantage for the skilled rider and Id like to replicate that.
Sorry didnt give a full description on the last post.

I notice there is a gap jump in the olympics course – with a longer chicken run, seems perfectly sensible to me. If people were to get off their bike and run across the gap (not sure if this would save time anyway), to me that would seem lame and a little bit like cheating.

Agreed, and that’s the advantage of a well designed course I guess. Other bits I can think of with a chicken lines from courses this year do work in the same vain:

– Worry Gill and Medusa’s Drop at Dalby both have chicken lines which are far easier and cost 5 or so seconds (assuming a clear run at the ‘a line’)
– The 2 bombholes at Wasing both slow you significantly, and set you up on the wrong line at the bottom

There is a chicken line on one of the drops at Pippingford that doesn’t really work IMO, 2 drops separated by a bank one climbs at a slight angle and it is (in the wet at least) very difficult to clean, whilst the chicken run isn’t really shorter. So you may as well take the chicken run, and be guaranteed a clean run, rather than try the drop, maybe succeed and gain nothing, or get it wrong and lose time.

Like I say, it’s a balance, the chicken run needs to be faster than walking the main section, but slower than a good run at the main section.

I might be grum, I’ve not looked back. TBH a traditional XC is fun, unless it’s just me. What gets people hooked is getting drawn into the out and out racing regardless of fitness.
Tearing off the blocks alongside 100 other guys all racing for that ever narrowing line seems to bring something out of you that you can never find on any other day riding.
This is why I’m cautious about over technical courses. To me a race is focusing on getting past the bloke in front. So I want the course to be ‘tricky’ but not so that it requires more commitment than chasing the rider ahead.
If you are one of the folks who want to change the face of XC racing without ever trying it then yes it was at you.

and as far as Ive ever seen, the XC whippets are usually the most skilled riders too. I remember doing gisburn on the 575 with Scott Thwaites he did two laps to my one on his Carbon Lapierre hardtail and rinsed me on the descents too.

£10 a race cheap enough?

Spot on. Move the whole thing considerably further south and I’m in 🙂

As far as the comments from folk who don’t want to race goes: The reason I said I don’t particularly want to race is because apart from MM this year, which I trained bloody hard for, just to be able to ride it, i’ve never raced an mtb in my life.I’m 51 years old and not about to start now. I’m fit, not very fast on a bike, but getting much faster all the time. I’ve had mountain bikes since 1987 and until last year maybe ridden averagely once a month in any anger. I have ridden two or theree times a week for almost a year now and intend to ciontinue in that vein until I simply can’t. The group I ride with often are aged from 22 to 40 without me and have an average age of 28.
Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC. I would also gladly give time to marshall or help out even if not racing.It’s all mountain biking to me.
So. If xc wants a place in British MTB then either it bimbles on as it is or it gains riders, supporters, sponsors, organisers. Otherwise it will spiral inwards and downwards.
Please, take well intentioned, constructive criticism and observation on the chin.
I’m not bashing XC and haven’t really seen anyone else on here doing that either.

I’m off for a wee.

Completely agree with Oldgit here – accessible grass roots racing is missing from much of the UK.

I can do a CX race or a TT without having to travel more than a few miles or pay more than a tenner, yet I’d have to spend half the day driving from Bristol to Surrey to do an XC race. In parts of the country where local races are put on, they seem to be well supported – Beastway etc.

Technical courses would be nice from an image point of view, but they aren’t that important in an event where 90% of the field are going to be too knackered to see straight by the end of the first lap. When I finish a local CX race, my first thought isn’t “wow, that course was easy”.

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it’s no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines. But it just doesn’t enter most people’s heads to do something because we are continually told that “XC racing is dead”. When I started MTBing I didn’t really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I’m starting to think we’re missing a trick.

That for a fiver

including on site first aid coverage? We couldn’t operate at £5 and our costs are minmal

we looked at time penalties but essentially they are impossible to enforce well, put to much on the marshal (who might be a friend of a racer) good course design is the answer

hoopdriver, we have regulars who live >100 miles away

I ask because it seems folk want technical stuff to slow down the whippets.

in our experience the “whippets” are more than competant downhill/ on the technical bits. Just design a good course, see what happens and then adjust for the next one. Don’t pigeonhole people people by their bikes or clothes.

a bit of racing across a field from our series
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/30/qPLrdCAgCRc

and to show we are family friendly “c’mon Dad!”
http://www.youtube.com/user/BrownbacksRacing#p/u/21/m4tbFIlKlk4

in our experience the “whippets” are more than competant downhill/ on the technical bits. Just design a good course, see what happens and then adjust for the next one. Don’t pigeonhole people people by their bikes or clothes.

+1
The pigeonholing is probably the biggest problem.

If you want to put on a local XC race then in reality it’s no harder than organising an event in any other disciplines.

having done it, yes it is, getting people to come forward to help is hard, the ones that do often don’t race themselves and are some of life’s stars, road, TT, CX use the club structure to get assistance to well established events which often take place over a shorter length of time

When I started MTBing I didn’t really care, now having experienced and enjoyed a bit of racing in other disciplines I’m starting to think we’re missing a trick

and if it’s so easy, do it yourself rather than bemoaning the lack of races, who do you think is going to do it if you don’t? 😉

Some of these guys would make good committed competetive riders, but see nothing to attract them to XC

Are they not attracted by riding new places, without having to think, knowing that you’ve got a couple of hours of great riding, not worrying about walkers/stiles/gates etc (by and large!). That’s a big part of riding for me – riding in places I otherwise wouldn’t, with likeminded others.

and if it’s so easy, do it yourself rather than bemoaning the lack of races, who do you think is going to do it if you don’t?

*waves hand in air and jumps up and down for attention*
I think I know the answer!!
*Look at me, me!*

Brownbacks, that wasn’t another “someone else should do it” comment. Having sounded a few people out about running a few local races in Bristol it sounds like there is heaps of enthusiasm from local clubs, potential sponsors, local BC rep et el. It hasn’t quite come together yet (mainly because the local MTB trails have spent quite a lot of the summer closed while they receive a full facelift) but I’m sure it will soon.

You may have a point about road clubs having more of a racing culture, but I don’t think that’s insurmountable.

just had a thought
If you cant ride a technical section then youre sent back to either try again or do the chicken run.

Its a bit like in motorbike enduros where riders cant get up a muddy hill, its brilliant for the crowds as riders keep battling up the hill.

I just think it might work out as a bit of a fun spot for spectators but a key point in a race where skill can save a few seconds in a lap and thus prove the difference between a fit rider and a skilled fit rider.

It’d be worth a try, but my analogy of the first rider cocking it up and thus causing problems for all the following riders still stands. And if they come off halfway down are they going to have to walk back up the singletrack?

Not trying to put you off, just think it would be near impossible to implement!

yeah, Im just mulling ideas over at the moment, maybe save the retry rule for the uphill sections.

If after all someone crashes going down then first aid might be a higher priority

It sounds to me as if you are thinking of increasingly complicated ways of penalising a mythical group of fit but incompetent riders.

If you look at the front of an NPS you’ll see that they can all ride anyway.

Yeah it’s in the middle, around me, where it goes terribly wrong 🙂