Brexit 2020+

The Nissan move is interesting though. Given they have a big factory here they could effectively become Britain’s domestic car manufacturer.

One third of brexit voters self reported as being racist.

Where / when was that?

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-voters-racist-views-survey_uk_59ce00b8e4b05f005d336511

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-voters-racist-views-survey_uk_59ce00b8e4b05f005d336511

What would be interesting is a comparative study on how likely they are to act on their views as well. As this is just an examination of their self reported feelings/thoughts on the topic.

Racists can be roughly divided into a bunch of subgroups as well.

1) Openly racist and proud. People who self report as being racist either tend to be these types, or self aware types.

2) Aversive racist. Deny that they are but hold prejudiced views.

3) Authoritarian/culturally conservative. Intellectualise the racism.

It doesn’t give any indication of how those groups are split by the vote.

Jesus.

Cheers for the link.

To add to the story of journalists being refused entry to a Downing Street briefing, Number 10 have been filming and photographing events themselves and putting their approved content out to the media for free, this happened at Boris’s address to mark the UK leaving the EU, you may have spotted pics of Boris banging a gong, these were taken by Downing Street photographer Andrew Parsons, access to photographers from the major wire agencies was refused for this event, Downing street offered them the film and video to distribute but at present the wire agencies are refusing to move Downing Street supplied content as sanitised political news coverage would become the new normal, which is obviously Bozza’s plan.

rayban – what was the sample size in survey results you posted above?

molgrips re nissan – that is their objective if they close european factories.

…before blaming the EU27 for being obstructive

Apparently … for a free trade trade agreement we may have to agree some minimum standards … the government and pet newspapers (or is it the other way around now) pretending this is a surprise, or is a new statement from the EU, goes to show how stupid they think most of the Brexit fans are …

molgrips re nissan

Johnson’s team are now talking about a Japan trade deal being the low hanging fruit. If there’s no deal including cars and rules of origin between UK&EU, then Japan will be looking to build at home, importing into both UK&EU markets, and the Japanese government will shape their trade deal with us to enable that.

Number 10 have been filming and photographing events themselves

Learn from Russia.

Cheers for the link.

What’s the point? Brexit wasn’t about sticking it to the foreigners and telling them they can’t boss us about, or about keeping swarthy multilingual types of our hallowed island. It wasn’t anything to do with racism or xenophobia. No need to ask Brexit supporters, we know that they know that their project had nothing to do with immigration or race… it’s self evident and not up for discussion. To suggest otherwise is a discourtesy.

Jesus.

Cheers for the link.

Don’t call him that he’ll only get more cocky.

I was wondering if your protest had come back to bite you, Eddiebaby, apparently not. Would you have made the same protest vote if you weren’t financially immune enough to protest and not worry about the consequences? On the very small sample size of this forum very few of the people who voted Brexit are/were in economically sensitive positions. Easy to protest vote if you don’t think you’ll suffer any consequences. You’re not alone, it’s just that you’re more candid than most. “protest vote” is easier to understand than “child benefits” which was another explanation in the early pages of the old thread.

Thanks for sharing the link Ray-Ban, did you read through the actual report on the Runnymede trust website? Some big points being made but it looked a little flaky on close inspection
Some scary numbers though,
34% of leave voters admit they are either very or a little racially prejudiced
18% of remain voters admit they are either very or a little racially prejudiced.

Do you have a link for your strange sub categories of racial prejudice theories as that looks a little off to me.

Nature

Those who score low on both implicit and explicit prejudice measures are classed as Truly Low Prejudiced in the Son Hing et al. (2008) model (we prefer the term Egalitarian as we feel it captures the true essence of these people); they show little bias towards favouring their ingroup over their outgroup, show empathy and understanding about issues that may affect outgroup members, and are the least likely to discriminate against outgroup members. Whilst one might hope that the majority in our society would act in this way, our findings consistently show that they make up between 23–30% of our participants (e.g., Sullivan and Hutchings, 2018a, 2018b).

People scoring high on implicit (unconscious) prejudice but low on explicit (conscious) prejudice are classed as Aversive Racists (ARs)Footnote1. Research suggests that they may not consciously believe that they are prejudiced but their conative actions may betray subconscious attitudes that can result in forms of discrimination (Dovidio and Gaertner, 2004). Kovel (1970), who coined the AR term, suggested that this type of person may not actively dislike people of other groups, and would likely be mortified if it were suggested that this were the case. However, they may feel uneasy around people of different groups, may avoid interactions and keep their distance so as not to feel uncomfortable. Whilst this may not involve conscious prejudice and discrimination it can lead to similar outcomes. Whether it be non-inclusion in interactions or uncomfortable interactions, being less likely to be hired for work positions due to awkwardness in the interview or even not being invited to interview in the first place, the impact upon the outgroup member is often the same as if old-fashioned prejudice had been at work. This group tends to be the largest of our groups in our studies, with 25–35% of our participants tending to fall into this category (Sullivan and Hutchings, 2018a, 2018b).

Our third subgroup, Principled Conservatives (PC), are defined by scoring low on implicit prejudice but high on explicit prejudice. This may, at first, appear contradictory; why would someone consciously feel prejudice toward outgroups when their subconscious attitudes do not match? The answer to this seems to be linked to attitudes regarding what people are entitled to from a society. PCs appear to have concerns regarding state or legal interference in what they believe should be an individual’s responsibility. Affirmative action to help disadvantaged group members is seen as giving an unfair advantage at best, or discrimination against the ingroup at worst. Whilst this may seem reasonable on the face of it in that, if anything, no discrimination is being shown, this view tends to dogmatically ignore that not all groups are equal and that state and legal intervention is sometimes required to address historical, hierarchical, and changing issues in society. Because the conscious intention and actions will likely lead to negative outcomes for outgroup members it is easy to see why this could be construed as overtly prejudiced behaviour when viewed in isolation. This group tends to be marginally the smallest of our subtypes, with between 20–26% of participants falling into this category (Sullivan and Hutchings, 2018a, 2018b).

Our final prejudice subtype group are those who score high on both implicit and explicit prejudice; Modern Racists (MR). These people both feel subconsciously and report consciously that they hold prejudices towards outgroup members. In many ways this is the prototype group that people are likely to think of when hearing the words prejudice or racist. Between 25–30% of our participants tend to fall into this category (Sullivan and Hutchings, 2018a, 2018b); that may appear to be a surprisingly high number, but this has been supported across social surveys over a number of years with similar or even higher figures (NatCen Social Research, 2014).

Both Egalitarians and Aversive Racists are argued to be on the ‘left’ spectrum of the political divide, with an interest in social justice and a shared society (Son-Hing et al., 2008). Conversely, Principled Conservatives and Modern Racists are therefore considered to be on the ‘right’ of the political divide, with more of a focus upon personal responsibility and individualism (ibid). Whilst it is clear that a direct correlation cannot be drawn between political affiliation and prejudice subtype (right-wing supporting Egalitarians or Aversive Racists no doubt exist) it does provide us with a useful framework with which to examine some of the wider issues in our society relating to prejudice

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41599-018-0214-5

In truth, I agree that not all brexiteers are racist and that I was being facetious. What needs to be recognized is that the Leave campaign – was and is an inherently racist movement and that peoples prejudices were co-opted by Farrage et al. to state that this wasn’t the case or that leave racists are a tiny minority does a lot of vulnerable minorities a huge disservice.

I apologise for proving Godwins law again, but we have to remember that it can be argued that many Germans who voted for the Nazis were not completely deranged racists – however it was definitely a racist movement and could have been regarded as such even without the clear allusions to being one found in “Mein Kampf”.

This country is in danger of sleep walking or soothing itself into fascism if it refuses to analyse the referendum from a racial perspective.

Would you have made the same protest vote if you weren’t financially immune enough to protest and not worry about the consequences?

Yes. And at the time I wasn’t that financially stable and I still have a lot of problems with other longstanding issues. I do however have less responsibility than many.
As I said I didn’t think it would go that way. I made a mistake.
I went into the studio the following day and we’d all done the same thing on seeing the result graphs:
“Wow that was close!”
“Wait what way round?!!!!!”

I made a mistake.

You did.

But it takes a big man, the better man even, to admit that rather than doubling down. And for that I applaud you, sir.

The Nissan move is interesting though. Given they have a big factory here they could effectively become Britain’s domestic car manufacturer.

Yes, they just want more favourable terms as they are no longer competitive in the far east so will try to get whatever they can in Europe or UK.
Chinese car company has taken over our national car in the far east by turning it into something much nicer than we could but with most parts manufactured in China obviously.
The Korean are also making an in road into the SE Asia market and are taking the Japanese market share.
European car brands … nahh … they are insignificant over there. Mechanics like them coz they can rub their hands with glee.

molgrips re nissan – that is their objective if they close european factories.

Nissan is not doing well in SE Asia put it this way.

Plenty of people did the same Eddie. Thanks for sharing.

“Wow that was close!”

It’s the lack of acknowledgment of that closeness in the popular voter by our political class, and any attempt to act accordingly, which will prove to be the most damaging element in all of this.

the Leave campaign – was and is an inherently racist movement

Hmm. I think it was lots of things to lots of people. Lexiters thought it was a socialist movement, racists thought it was a racist movement, jingoists etc etc. The fact they never spelled out what it was actually going to look like enabled everyone to imagine it was the thing they want.

Yes. And at the time I wasn’t that financially stable and I still have a lot of problems with other longstanding issues. I do however have less responsibility than many.
As I said I didn’t think it would go that way. I made a mistake.
I went into the studio the following day and we’d all done the same thing on seeing the result graphs:
“Wow that was close!”
“Wait what way round?!!!!!”

That post has made my day. I am not taking the piss.

At last a bit of honesty rather than twisting this way and that trying to defend the indefensible.

I don’t want to see this country fail. Sadly, what I do want is for petty English Nationalism to get such a kicking from reality that it is never able to get up again. The ‘two world wars and one world cup’ lot to be put back in their box.

I am hoping above hope that there are enough Leave voters who realise what a total fail Brexit is. And that when Joris let’s them down (which he will), they chase him away (to paraphrase Stalin).

Then I hope that enough people will realise that unicorns don’t exist. The vast majority of our society’s ills cannot be laid at anyone else’s door. Maybe some kind of optimism could come from learning that lesson.

The two massive problems are how much damage needs to be done to make people realise Brexit is a bad idea and how to make sure they don’t double-down and start backing really nasty politicians.

Anyway, today has ended with me feeling marginally more optimistic than at the start, so there is a positive.

In truth, I agree that not all brexiteers are racist and that I was being facetious.

Thank you

To suggest otherwise is a discourtesy.

Oooh! You little scamp

Most Brexiteers are not racist.

Without stirring up the racism Brexit would not be happening.

Without the ‘control the borders, keep them out’ message, there would be no Brexit.

And Brexit supporters, including all those millions who aren’t racist, know that.

Let’s not pretend otherwise, even if it would be courteous to do so.

More truth please.

Correction, most brexiteers are not explicitly racist (modern racists in the definitions I posted above).

But a high percentage of the others probably need to do a bit of introspection as well – I’d wager that it’s potentially around half of the Brexit vote that were influenced by the anti-immigrant rhetoric – whether they were consciously racist and proud of it or not.

As you and others say, for reconciliation to occur there needs to be truth – and that entails people analyzing their motivations for voting leave and recognizing that racism did play a pivotal role in the vote.

I don’t see that happening anytime soon, in fact I think it’s going to get worse. Those leavers who do recognize that racism played a huge role in the vote, need to decide who’s side they are on and whether they want to continue legitimizing a movement that could morph into something worse.

It’s the lack of acknowledgment of that closeness

Yeah. Leave won by an “overwhelming majority” of 52:48 apparently. A majority which in any other context would be put down to statistical error. If you had a new drug which was efficacious 52% of the time vs placebo treatments you’d be laughed out of the room.

To suggest otherwise is a discourtesy.

Oooh! You little scamp

I rather thought that was satire. Was it not?

I rather thought that was satire. Was it not?

Yup.

I can’t argue with your most recent f post at all Kelvin you know my feelings on the Brexit shambles.

And off we go again, rayban you make some giant leaps on some very complex societal problems based on your on summaries of complicated data. You cut out the complexity and tidy it all up to suit your own agenda.

Racism is a serious societal issue no doubt and education is the key.
What are your thoughts on the claimed 18% of remain voters being racist, I’m guessing that’s more like 40% if we use your logic, how many of those are looking to act upon their racism, do you think they voted remain deliberately for more prey. Wind it back a notch or six.

Regarding Nissans threat to move production from Europe to the UK if tariffs are high, could this be related to Renaults attempt at a closer merger/take over and Ghosn’s flight from house arrest?

What are your thoughts on the claimed 18% of remain voters being racist,

I think that the 2017 study is limited, we don’t really know which group of racists either side falls into. The remain camp could be made up of the category called modern racists, this wouldn’t make much sense to me. I suspect that they may fall into the group termed principled conservatives – as a fair few Tories voted remain. I think it’s fairly safe to assume that very few of the modern racist subcategory would be attracted to what was an anti-racist and economically driven campaign, although of course – I haven’t found any evidence for that yet.

It’s still patently obvious, based on a qualitative look at the language and rhetoric used by leave that the movement was racist. The data although patchy, seems to evidence that.

That needs to be recognised and the “not all brexiteers…” lot need to acknowledge that.

And off we go again
…
What are your thoughts

What are yours?

how many of those are looking to act upon their racism, do you think they voted remain deliberately for more prey

Seriously? You’ve been reading too much… Well, I don’t know what you’ve been reading, but I’d stop it if it’s planting that kind of vacuous bullshizzle in your head.

Regarding Nissans threat to move production from Europe to the UK if tariffs are high, could this be related to Renaults attempt at a closer merger/take over and Ghosn’s flight from house arrest?

I suspect they want subsidies, Sunderland has capacity for 600,000 cars a year

At the moment 80% are for export, according to this ‘leaked’ contingency option there will be no more exports at all, unless 1 in 5 of all UK cars sold is a Nissan the factory will have to be drastically reduced in size or heavily subsidised

I mean it’s possible that we’ll start buying 1/2 million Nissans a year, but it’s unlikely!

That needs to be recognised and the “not all brexiteers…” lot need to acknowledge that.

We do which is why say not all are racists.

And that’s the problem Tom, you take lightweight data, chop some bits add a couple of grenades and before you know it you are off chatting about Hitler again.

The runnymede trust report you link does not get anywhere close to your claims of a racist movement, 1% of society admit to being very racially prejudiced
25% admit to being a little racially prejudiced
17% of those who admit to being a little racially prejudiced voted leave and 8% voted remain

Any idea what a ‘little racially prejudiced’ actually means in that report? It is very vague and could include minor cultural education matters.

I’m not seeing evidence of a racist movement in those numbers, it looks like society has a small but significant problem with people being ‘ a little racially prejudiced’
Like I said the report looks a bit lightweight and definitely does not evidence a racist movement.

Wow.

What do you think drove people to vote leave, Exsee, other than remainers? Clearly not racism – what are your thoughts?

Nothing to do with immigrants or foreigners. Nope. Nothing.

Like I said the report looks a bit lightweight and definitely does not evidence a racist movement.

While ropey it clearly does have evidence of a racist movement behind some. The lack of data makes it difficult to judge what the figures actually are in reality though.

Pondo. It’s okay you don’t need to fret I was using a bit of Tom’s logic and leaping from one to a thousand on very flimsy data.
Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

We are talking about the Runnymede trust report, Drac which part did you think evidenced a racist movement for the leave campaign (I was answering raybans claim that it evidenced a racist movement for the leave campaign.)

I’m not seeing evidence of a racist movement in those numbers, it looks like society has a small but significant problem with people being ‘ a little racially prejudiced’

25 percent is not small and people are always going to under report or under estimate racial prejudice when self-reporting – unless they are bastard nihilists, people like to tell themselves that they are good people.

25% admit to being a little racially prejudiced
17% of those who admit to being a little racially prejudiced voted leave and 8% voted remain

You seem to be playing with the numbers a bit here – they have 34 percent of leave voters in total admitting to various levels of prejudice.

It’s also interesting to note that 44% of Britions said some ethnic groups were naturally harder working, but only 25 percent thought they were a little prejudiced lol.

The report even concludes

“While it is true that a majority of the public do not consider themselves racially prejudiced, a considerable minority describe themselves as prejudiced, and there are sound reasons to believe both that the actual prevalence of racial prejudice is likely to be higher, and that some of this prejudice is of a very significant nature, such as believing that some races are born less intelligent.”

It hardly supports your assumption that this is a small problem and does lend credence to the fact that the prejudice of the leave vote, could be higher than the self reported data has managed to capture depending if the vote was divided by certain psychological traits.

Basically, it requires and deserves further investigation.

It’s still patently obvious, based on a qualitative look at the language and rhetoric used by leave that the movement was racist.

The campaign played that card yes. But it also played other cards.

Jingoism, exceptionalism and xenophobia aren’t necessarily the same as racism. The leave campaign exploited all those things to get what it wanted. It played on people’s sentiments about their country and their position. But people are easily manipulated. They could be manipulated the other way.

Correction, most brexiteers are not explicitly racist (modern racists in the definitions I posted above).

But a high percentage of the others probably need to do a bit of introspection as well – I’d wager that it’s potentially around half of the Brexit vote that were influenced by the anti-immigrant rhetoric – whether they were consciously racist and proud of it or not.

Whether consciously racist, or modern racists, or whatever term you use, there was undeniably an anti-immigrant / racist aspect to the Leave campaign. Unless you deny Farage’s poster or Jo Cox’s murder you cannot deny that; and the Remain campaign called it out time and again.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say they (or even around half) were influenced by the rhetoric but I simply cannot accept that a very large proportion of the Leave voting population didn’t know it – they are not stupid. They knew what was in the box (as well as many other things, for sure) and that opening the box would let it out. And they did it anyway. So whether that was to deliberately let it out, as a necessary side-effect, or in a few cases if it comes as a surprise, I now consider them responsible for opening the box.