bothering to indicate…

Are road arrows advisory, or are they instructions? Genuine Q, as I don’t know – but the answer could change the frame of this debate

I did google that myself. Didn’t get a definite answer but a thread on pistonheads reckoned that they were advisory unless also accompanied by text saying “Ahead Only” “Left Only” etc (see diagrams 1035 and 1036 of TSRGD) – but they did also say that traffic police might do you for inconsiderate driving if you ignored markings (and they were in a suitably bad mood).

Edit: ah you found it 😀

Only on STW is this open for debate.

Thanks God someone agrees with me – I was starting to question my sanity there. 😀

GrahamS – Member
It would if you were allowed to turn left, but on the roundabout I’m basing this on the middle lane only has a straight on arrow, which I take to mean “this lane is straight on only”:

Got it! The road painters temporarily misplaced the combined straight and left arrow, template.
😉

My read is middle lane gets to choose to take exit one or exit two.

However, in recent developments <5yrs, I’ve witnessed cars start in the left lane as they enter the roundabout, stay there, circumnavigate the entire roundabout in the left lane, to eventually take the third exit. Oh yeah!
😯

GrahamS – Member

Thanks God someone agrees with me

I can only apologize for that person being me.

GrahamS – Member
Thanks God someone agrees with me – I was starting to question my sanity there.

Or it could be you’re both as mad as a box of frogs.
😆

Thinking and planning ahead = checking whether the 2nd lane is clear and whether there is traffic on the slip road so that you are ready to change lanes if necessary. Changing lanes because there’s a slip road ahead = moving lanes unnecessarily

Sorry but not sure if you quite get it? What you’re doing is good, well done, a lot of drivers don’t even think that far ahead, but often with raised/lowered sliproads and especially with driving in lane 1 you simply cant see what’s on the sliproad, particularly if it’s fast moving, until you’re almost right alongside the sliproad exit which means that despite planning, you’ll still have to execute a fairly fast maneuver.

Temporarily being in lane 2 at this stage not only gives you much better visibility onto the sliproad, but you’ve already positioned yourself to avoid any possible hazards – you’ve already removed the need for you and others to react quickly from the equation, far far safer.

So far as causing inconvenience to other motorists, just don’t understand this, if I’ve indicated well before the maneuver and if there’s plenty of clear space then what’s the problem? Normally it’s likely I’ll be traveling as quickly as the traffic and conditions will safely allow anyway so that’s not really holding anyone else up now is it?

My read is middle lane gets to choose to take exit one or exit two.

On approach to the r’about, at the point where you are deciding which lane to use, what are you basing this opinion on?

agent007 – Member
Sorry but not sure if you quite get it?

Not wanting to upset anyone, but that comment made me think that actually, perhaps it’s the other way around.

If folk just stuck to what the HC says, there’d be no discussion.
It’s folk re-interpreting the situation and coming to their own answer is where it starts to get sketchy, imo.
Simpler to just stick to the rules on joining the Mway, from a slip road.

sbob – Member
On approach to the r’about,

Nope, I’m referring to the second arrow in the middle lane, on the roundabout itself. Ime, that arrow would have the combined straight and left arrow symbol.
🙂

Really? I’ve seen it often, never had to do it myself except in nose-to-tail jams though. What you do is, you stop on the slip road, and you wait for a suitable opportunity to join safely. Which might be a while, but that’s just how that goes.

On a dual carriageway sure. On a motorway, never.

Despite the fact that you are not permitted to turn left from the other lane?

Says who?

I think the issue here is that you, the other two (and in fairness a lot of people that drive that roundabout in reality) are looking solely at the lane markings in isolation, making your decision, and then discarding the other factors (road signs and arrows) which contradict your decision.

I’m looking at the road layout and suggesting that the road markings are sufficiently ambiguous to to interpreted incorrectly. It’s very clear to me from the road design what you’re supposed to do.

It’s like a tiny Dunning-Kruger effect

I don’t disagree. (-:

2) let’s imagine this same road layout as a traffic light controlled junction instead. Seems a bit simpler that way. You are saying that the arrows are wrong and that drivers in lane 2 can actually go left at this junction?

I’m saying it’s ambiguous. There’s one near me, I’ve just remembered, I’ll post it in a follow-up.

“this lane is straight on only”:

If go straight on in that lane until told otherwise, you’ll crash into that traffic island. (-:

So in summary, it’s just me and sbob that think it’s vaguely important to do what the road markings actually tell you to do, rather than what you reckon they ought to tell you to do?

Well that explains the source of this thread I suppose 😀

If folk just stuck to what the HC says, there’d be no discussion.
It’s folk re-interpreting the situation and coming to their own answer is where it starts to get sketchy, imo.

Welp, there goes the irony meter! 😀

I’m referring to the second arrow in the middle lane, on the roundabout itself. Ime, that arrow would have the combined straight and left arrow symbol.

Aren’t new experiences fun? 😆

Out of interest, would you people still choose to ignore that “ahead only” arrow if it had the accompanying “Ahead Only” text with it (which based on that pistonheads thread makes it mandatory and an offence under the Road Traffic Act to ignore)?

(Personally I can’t say I was aware of that legal distinction until it was brought up)

Gah, you can’t see the markings clearly because there’s either traffic covering it or a tear in the imaging. But I’m talking about here:

https://goo.gl/maps/52BiZJcGJjw

The road first splits to two lanes (just behind this POV) and then three. Lane one clearly arrowed left only, lane two straight on, lane three the right turn filter.

But, see the next set of markings up ahead? The arrow you can just about make out between the read and silver cars in lane 2? That’s a combined straight-on / left turn arrow.

At what point are you allowed in the second lane to turn left? As you pass the arrow? That’s practically on top of the junction where it’d be really dangerous to change lanes, and I’ve never ever come across any sort of THC rule which says that’s how the arrows behave. I’d expect that sort of demarcation to be signposted.

The fact is, the road markings are misleading; you’ve got two successive arrows in the same lane telling you two different things. Both of those lanes can clearly turn left into the two-lane dual carriageway despite what the earlier arrow says.

@Graham S.

Dude, selectively quoting only part of my comment specifically about joining the Mway and combining it with what I described as “my read” regarding the roundabout Q. Displays a pretty decent reading the thread fail.

“My read” Doesn’t = I’m correct, FACT.
Just so you’re clear on that now.
😉

Of course whilst Drivers are bad, when it comes to indication Cyclists are by far the worst, I can’t remember the last time I saw one stick an arm out.

turning right or a one of the rare left turns where I need to slow down (ie anything that directly affects other traffic) I’ll indicate. Indicating for a left turn is an invite for someone oncoming to make a turn right infront of you or someone to overtake and take the corner at the same time as you, speaking from a position of a lot of experience.

Roundabouts on approach of course but actually on it I only do it where possible, some are so busy and hectic taking my hands off the controls is contra indicated

Out of interest, would you people still choose to ignore that “ahead only” arrow

Looking at that photo, the left arrow takes you off to the left, the right arrow takes you to the right. There is no “ahead” to speak of other to a fork in the road where you have the option of following the lane round either to the right or the left. Just look at it man, there’s no other markings on the road to say that that side of the exit road is anything other than a continuation of the lane you’re already in!

Out of interest, would you people still choose to ignore that “ahead only” arrow

I think the difference of opinion here is whether it actually does mean Ahead Only….

You’re clear that it does, but I’m not so sure.

Cougar – Moderator
The fact is, the road markings are misleading; you’ve got two successive arrows in the same lane telling you two different things. Both of those lanes can clearly turn left into the two-lane dual carriageway despite what the earlier arrow says

Agree!

I say we sort this democratically.

Hold an STW referendum, whether to leave to the left or remain going straight ahead!

the middle lane arrow should clearly be ignored, as the picture shows, straight on just isn’t an option.

My own feeling is that the option to turn left from this lane is intended for people who entered the roundabout at an entrance other than the one immediately preceding this picture.

So many of you are making this far more complicated than it is.

At the point when you decide which lane to use, the only instruction you have for turning left is to use the left lane.

Making decisions on what you think might be around the corner is very silly.

I can use googlemaps to look at my old car parked on my old drive, where in reality it isn’t there anymore.

The road marking are ambiguous at best and plain wrong, in reality.

I think some know this… Must be a slow day, in certain parts of the world 😉

Just to add to my previous post:

If that dashed lane between the first two lanes bent round to the right instead of the left, joining up to the apex of the hashed area, I’d totally agree with Graham. But it doesn’t.

In other words, with reference to my Google example earlier you’re then being presented with new information in terms of the lane markings which supersedes the previous information. If that wasn’t the case then if you ever found yourself in the third lane you’d still be going round it now.

The problem really is, it’s just a terribly marked roundabout from a previous era of road design, modern ones have helical lanes that carry you round to the correct exit without having to concern yourself with lane changes. That vague Arrow of Contentiousness is the least of its problems, it’s dreadful.

I think the difference of opinion here is whether it actually does mean Ahead Only….

It’s “Appropriate Traffic Lanes for Different Destinations” according to TSRGD:

And is the same as “Ahead Only” but without the text:

Both of those lanes can clearly turn left into the two-lane dual carriageway despite what the earlier arrow says

The latter arrow is a new order that supersedes the previous one – lane 1 & 2 can turn left at the lights as you say.

Your issue there is that the earlier arrow in lane 2 says “Ahead and right turn” when really lane 2 splits later on and is fine for “Left turn, ahead, or right turn”.

TSRGD doesn’t seem to allow more than two arrow heads per arrow though (e.g. see Item 4 on diagram 1038), presumably because it would confuse people, so instead they handle it by getting you into the right lanes in two stages.

modern ones have helical lanes that carry you round to the correct exit

I love these, and still find them quite exciting!

😳

Solo – Member

The road marking are ambiguous at best and plain wrong, in reality.

I think some know this… Must be a slow day, in certain parts of the world

It’s always slow in my world, I never speed. 🙂
Besides, with a large capacity V8 you can peel out elevens without ever breaking 30mph. 8)

so instead they handle it by getting you into the right lanes in two stages.

Could be readily fixed with a road sign.

So at what point is it ok to be in the second lane to turn left in contravention of the previous two “appropriate lane” arrows?

The thing that gets me with motorway slip roads is those who are coming up the slip road, I’m in lane 1, behind me is completely clear (lane 2 is busy otherwise I’d move over) but they still accelerate passed me on the slip road and insert themselves into the safe braking distance infront of me. It’s happened a few times too. Grrr.

If that wasn’t the case then if you ever found yourself in the third lane you’d still be going round it now.

If you are in that third lane with the “Right Only” marking then yes you should keep going round and round.

On non-helical roundabout you need to change lanes when you want to leave the roundabout. Like our friend the green car:

Can’t we just accept that the arrows on the roundabout are badly thought out? Put it this way. Is there any valid reason why they should want to stop you from turning off the roundabout in the middle lane. I notice that the continuation of the road seems to show the left hand lane being left turn only with the RH lane showing straight ahead and right. Even more reason to exit the roundabout in the outside lane.

The middle lane is defined by two sets of dashed white line.

That lane then splits before exit one, into two lanes.
The option to choose which direction you follow, is implied by lack of more prescriptive road markings, road signs.
Time to decide/make a choice.

However…. Would one need to indicate left, were they to take exit one…. Aargh!

So at what point is it ok to be in the second lane to turn left in contravention of the previous two “appropriate lane” arrows?

I think if you turn left at any point before you get to the final arrow before those lights then you’ve definitely done something wrong!

On non-helical roundabout you need to change lanes when you want to leave the roundabout. Like our friend the green car:

I thought it would be fairly obvious that I was kidding here!

I think if you turn left at any point before you get to the final arrow before those lights then you’ve definitely done something wrong!

(-: That’s not what I asked though. Or, well, not what I meant. For clarity, at what point is it ok to be in the second lane in order to subsequently turn left?

Is there any valid reason why they should want to stop you from turning off the roundabout in the middle lane. I notice that the continuation of the road seems to show the left hand lane being left turn only with the RH lane showing straight ahead and right. Even more reason to exit the roundabout in the outside lane.

You’ve answered your own question.

Folk (like me) who are taking that road as their first exit need to be able to exit onto the LH or RH lane for the reasons you describe.

But if they allowed people to also exit onto the RH lane from the middle lane of the RB then that would put them on a collision course. Hence why that middle lane is ahead only.

People coming from earlier entrances are supposed to get into lane 1 at the point near 12 0’clock where the roundabout goes from 2 lanes to 3.

If that happened then we’d all exit the same way, into whichever lane we want, without any conflict.

Solo – Member

The middle lane

What relevance is the middle lane?
You wouldn’t be in the middle lane to turn left because on approach to the r’about the only instruction is to use the left lane to turn left.

To suggest anything else is to advocate driving by clairvoyancy.

Why is this so difficult to grasp for you lot?

I completely agree re non-indicating. It requires as much thought and effort as breathing, yet still seems beyond the feckless masses.

I’ll just leave this here…

For clarity, at what point is it ok to be in the second lane in order to subsequently turn left?

They don’t prosecute thought crimes (yet).

In your junction it’s always okay to be in that lane with the intention of turning left in the future.

You wouldn’t be doing anything wrong until you actually turned left and by that time you have been given permission to do so.

For clarity, at what point is it ok to be in the second lane in order to subsequently turn left?

When entering the r’about as first described?

There is *no point.

* 😉

In your junction it’s always okay to be in that lane with the intention of turning left in the future.

I agree. So how would you know?

When entering the r’about as first described?
There is *no point.

Cougar’s talking about the junction in his example now, which personally I don’t see any problem with.

I agree. So how would you know?

If you were new to your stretch of road then you wouldn’t know and if you were someone like me who obeys road markings then you’d dutifully stay in the left hand lane to turn left only to later discover that you could also have been in the middle lane.

No big deal.

When I see lunatic roundabout behaviour on the way home tonight I’m probably going to assume its a fellow STWer who’s read all this thread in one go, and now doubts everything.