bothering to indicate…

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  • bothering to indicate…
  • Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I did wonder if this would stand up in court.

    “Right sonny, did you not see all those arrows telling you that this lane is ahead only. You can’t turn left there!”

    “I think you’ll find I can officer. I’m from STW-land so I’m allowed to completely ignore road markings that I don’t agree with. Also, ahead actually means left.”

    “Oh fair enough. On your way, but try not to kill any more grannies.”

    😉

    Solo
    Member

    GrahamS – Member
    I did wonder if this would stand up in court.”Right sonny, did you not see all those arrows telling you that this lane is ahead only. You can’t turn left there!”

    That arrow is saying stay in a lane, which very soon splits into two lanes.
    😉

    Solo
    Member

    As for approaching the roundabout in the middle lane?

    Simple, left lane is clagged with folk who’ve never used that roundabout before. So you take the middle lane to turn left, with the intention of cutting in, with the application of the relevant indicator.

    But hey! You soon discover you can hang a left anyhow.
    Sorted!!

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    That arrow is saying stay in a lane, which very soon splits into two lanes.

    No it isn’t. As per the TSRGD the arrows indicate “Appropriate Traffic Lanes for Different Destinations”

    So it is saying “this lane for straight ahead” and the one next to it is saying “this lane for left turn”.

    As sbob says, when you approach the roundabout there is a big sign telling you that the three exits are left, straight on or right and there are three lanes clearly marked left, straight on and right.

    I’m struggling to understand why anyone thinks they would pass their driving test if they took the straight on lane to go left. But this is STW. 😀

    Solo
    Member

    GrahamS – Member
    No it isn’t. As per the TSRGD the arrows indicate “Appropriate Traffic Lanes for Different Destinations

    But the lane later splits in two, so taking exit one or exit two is fine.
    😆

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    The lane doesn’t split in two. It just passes a turn to the left.

    If it did split then it would have a double headed arrow indicating the two options, like all the other arrows on the roundabout where there are two options.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    The fundamental question here seems to be: are the arrow markings on the roundabout a load of bollocks? Since we can’t decide about the top right bit of the roundabout, I present the bottom right arrows as evidence for the prosecution. Specifically the straight ahead arrows in both lane 1 and lane 2, despite the relevant exit only having one lane.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    If it “passed a turn to the left” there would be broken dotted lines across the mouth of the turn. There isn’t. It’s not. That lane splits in two. It’s additional, new information contrary to the previous signage, and I think perhaps this is the critical bit you’re missing. And it happens all over the place, because the standard and quality of such things isn’t as consistently high as it could be.

    It is, at best, ambiguous as there are contradictory lane markings. Why does the lane markings just before the junction in my example supersede previous contrary lane markings, yet the ones in yours do not?

    Why are you so convinced that you’re right and everyone else is wrong when you said yourself in your initial post that “I confess I never quite got the hang of [it]”?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    The other fundamental, if you removed the arrows, what is the best way for it to work? If you removed all road markings on the roundabout, what is the best way for it to work?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I present the bottom right arrows as evidence for the prosecution.

    Yeah that’s fair actually.

    I’m not entirely sure why the lane 1 arrow there isn’t a left arrow. 😕

    I guess the exit is sort of “ahead” in that lane and it’s pretty obvious you can’t be any more left than you already are. But that’s a different “ahead” to the “ahead and right” arrow in lane 2 which is a bit confusing.

    It is worth saying again that those arrows are for information: They are not mandatory, so ignoring them isn’t illegal. If they wanted to make sure that you did not progress left from the mddle lane at that point they should’ve put a solid line hatching to prevent an exit there, and the two lanes after the exit should have markings showing you to move out to the outside lane if you don’t want to go left. It is just crap road marking. There is no ‘right’ in this instance because the markings allow for an ambiguity.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    But that’s a different “ahead” to the “ahead and right” arrow in lane 2 which is a bit confusing.

    Aha, so which exit is the ahead from lane 2, and therefore which exit is the right?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    If it “passed a turn to the left” there would be broken dotted lines across the mouth of the turn.

    I think the ideal approach for that exit (if you follow my line of thinking on it) would be something like:

    Which would be similar to the exit on the bottom left.

    Why are you so convinced that you’re right and everyone else is wrong when you said yourself in your initial post that “I confess I never quite got the hang of [it]”?

    Because the reason it caused me bother was people making up their own rules instead of following the road markings and the Highway Code. 😀

    Why are you so convinced that it is the road markings are wrong rather than your understanding?

    What makes more sense: that multiple road engineers designed, inspected and signed off on a design that contradicts itself and introduces inevitable collisions (directly outside the council offices) – or that they signed off on a design that would work if people just did what it tells them to do? 🙂

    If you removed all road markings on the roundabout, what is the best way for it to work?

    If you removed all the markings (and abolished the bit in the Highway Code about staying left to go left “unless signs or markings indicate otherwise”) then it’d be even more chaos than it is – but yes then I would probably come on at the top left straddling lane 1 and 2 to control the space and then move more definitely into lane 2 once I had made the exit. 😀

    Aha, so which exit is the ahead from lane 2, and therefore which exit is the right?

    I think (and I agree those arrows are confusing) that the ahead from lane 2 there is exit after the left and that right would be for the next (or any) after that.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I’m not entirely sure why the lane 1 arrow there isn’t a left arrow.

    Because, as I suggested earlier, the whole roundabout markup is a clusterfrank of a design. That’s the real problem here.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    It does have nice trees though.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I think the ideal approach for that exit (if you follow my line of thinking on it) would be something like:

    The debate seems to have morphed into you trying to prove that the way you interpret it is somehow “better,” which is a bit random. Whether that would be better or worse is a matter of debate, I’m not a road designer and presumably you’d need some sort of traffic flow analysis in that area.

    What I do know though is that if the road was marked like that, I’d 100% agree with you. But it isn’t, so I’m not sure what point you’re making; you could just as easily Photoshop some fictional white arrows on it.

    What makes more sense: that multiple road engineers designed, inspected and signed off on a design that contradicts itself

    Yet, that’s clearly what happened. Are you asserting that there’s no such thing as a shit road design?

    I think (and I agree those arrows are confusing) that the ahead from lane 2 there is exit after the left and that right would be for the next (or any) after that.

    QED. Where are your multiple design gurus now?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    What makes more sense: that multiple road engineers designed, inspected and signed off on a design that contradicts itself and introduces inevitable collisions (directly outside the council offices) – or that they signed off on a design that would work if people just did what it tells them to do?

    Well the road markings are contradictory, so the only possibility is the former. Sorry!

    I think (and I agree those arrows are confusing) that the ahead from lane 2 there is exit after the left and that right would be for the next (or any) after that.

    Which left? Could you specify exactly which exits the straight on and right arrows in lane 2 are directing you to? I know it’s tricky because the arrows are a load of bollocks, but I’m interested in your take on it.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    What I do know though is that if the road was marked like that, I’d 100% agree with you. But it isn’t, so I’m not sure what point you’re making

    You suggesting there would be some dashed lines across the exit – I was just illustrating how I think it could be made clearer.

    QED. Where are your multiple design gurus now?

    It’s not perfect – but it doesn’t cause obvious conflict and collisions in the way the top exit would.

    Well the road markings are contradictory

    See I just don’t agree with you or Cougar on that point. I think the lane layout is definitely not as clear as it could be, and would be ambiguous were it not for those arrows explaining it. (And the Highway Code of course!)

    You and Cougar seem to agree that the lane layout is ambiguous – but instead of using the arrows to clarify that ambiguity you have instead just picked an interpretation that leads to poor traffic flow and user conflict and then decided that multiple arrow markings must be wrong because they don’t support it.

    Could you specify exactly which exits the straight on and right arrows in lane 2 are directing you to? I know it’s tricky because the arrows are a load of bollocks, but I’m interested in your take on it.

    Welp I reckon the Lane 1 arrow means “this lane for straight on to that exit”. Lane 2 means “this lane for straight on to the second exit or right to the rest”. And lane 3 “this lane for right to the rest”

    Something like this:

    I’m not sure why lane 1 isn’t a left arrow. Maybe to avoid confusion with the entrance next to it? I dunno.

    It’s not 100% clear but it’s not particularly unsafe either.

    (And although it is just a “reckon” I don’t have any other evidence that directly contradicts it. If I did I’d reconsider my interpretation.) 😀

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    My apologies – I thought you might pick up that it was a trick question. If the right arrow means what you’re suggesting, then it is directing traffic to go back down the road it has just come from.

    Given the actual exits available, the only possible exit for the right arrow is actually the road to the right of your picture above (unless you think your team of experts are directing 2 lanes of traffic to do a u turn). Therefore the straight ahead arrows are directing 2 lanes of traffic into the single lane exit at the top of your picture. Not particularly unsafe?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Why are you allowing traffic going right round at that right exit (the middle three of your yellow arrows over there) when the earlier white road arrow said it was straight on only? That shouldn’t be allowed if the road arrows are immutable.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    (Sorry for brevity in the reply, I’m making tea)

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    Different set of arrows, Cougar. Sorry for confusing things (though graham hasn’t helped by rotating the pic!), simply disproving the suggestion that the planners know what they’re doing.

    Assuming that is that the same person planned both sets of arrows – may be a dodgy assumption given that it seems different people did the lane markings and arrows without talking to each other.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    You and Cougar seem to agree that the lane layout is ambiguous – but instead of using the arrows to clarify that ambiguity you have instead just picked an interpretation that leads to poor traffic flow and user conflict

    Does it? Or is that poor traffic flow and conflict only due to the ambiguity? If the arrows were painted to remove the ambiguity (or removed altogether) would there still be a problem with the traffic flow and conflict?

    The ambiguity is because of the arrows – in their absence there would be no ambiguity about the traffic flow into that exit.

    You and Cougar seem to agree that the lane layout is ambiguous – but instead of using the arrows to clarify that ambiguity

    But they are ambiguous. The ‘lane’ is, by defintion, delienated by the white broken line. For the first exit, the left hand side of the ‘lane’ continues off the roundabout whilst the right side continues around it. The lane spilts. When you take that first turn from the middle lane, you never at any point leave that lane by crossing a white line. You are not making a ‘left turn’. Thw advisory arrow is meaningless unless it points to a contiguous lane which you are following.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Exactly.

    Even if we assume that as Graham asserts the white arrow states “you must go ‘straight on’ and leave at the second exit”, what happens if you’d arrived at that same exit from further round the roundabout in the infinite third lane, and then changed lanes to the second lane after the arrow? Anything stopping you from using that exit from the second lane then?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Thus,

    (apologies for my lack of artistic ability)

    sbob
    Member

    So arriving at the roundabout wanting to turn left, has anyone questioned the fact that the only instruction is to use the left hand lane?

    No?

    Then you just carry on. 😆

    Utterly pointless. 😆

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    I don’t think it helps much to resolve the question, but I thought you lot might be amused by the set of directions I managed to generate:

    https://goo.gl/maps/piwcAsacENF2

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Sorry for the late reply – I went to the pub 🙂

    Right, so…

    aracer:
    My apologies – I thought you might pick up that it was a trick question. If the right arrow means what you’re suggesting, then it is directing traffic to go back down the road it has just come from.

    As one of the possible options. Seems reasonable to me. Being able to go all the way around is one of the key features of a roundabout.

    Therefore the straight ahead arrows are directing 2 lanes of traffic into the single lane exit at the top of your picture.

    Didn’t you tell me off earlier for suggesting changing lanes across a long dash?

    Now you’re telling me that an arrow saying “this lane to go straight on” actually means leave this lane to go straight on (which is really a bit left)?

    No, I don’t agree.

    I do agree that it is odd that the left lane has a straight-on arrow there, but I don’t think that’s a good reason to start changing the definition of the other arrows.

    Cougar:
    Thus

    WTaF?? 😯

    If you take the route marked by your red dots then you have joined the roundabout in the right turn lane when you want to go straight on!

    Anything stopping you from using that exit from the second lane then?

    All the other cars??

    If you do that then we now have at least three different streams of traffic all trying to get to second land of that exit!

    We have the green line, which is people taking what I believe are the correct routes (i.e. the routes that follow the arrows and Highway Code).

    We have the red lines which are people following your previously suggested routes (i.e. routes that ignore arrows and Highway Code in favour of having an easier time getting into the right lane at the exit)

    And then we have your dots (i.e. Hyundai drivers and people on the phone)

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I thought you lot might be amused by the set of directions I managed to generate

    😆

    Yep that’s about how useful my satnav is in most parts of city centre Gateshead or Newcastle.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    arrows are for guidance only.

    The junction here has bike boxes which are bright and clear after I asked for them to be re-painted. They had been worn to the point of not being recognised and car drivers would get upset at cyclists stopping there because it wasn’t obvious that they were entitled to.

    I also asked for the “left turn only” arrow to be repainted, and repeated further up towards the junction. Drivers who were using that lane to go straight, hoping for a drag start to cut in first before the parked cars would get aggressive with cyclists in front of them spoiling their plan.

    If ever there was a case for a “left turn only”, it’s here. The road further up is single carriageway with cars always parked in the bays.

    However:

    Thank you contacting Islington Council regarding Hornsey Road.

    The left north bound lane at the junction of Hornsey Road and Tollington Road is not a mandatory left turn. The arrow is there for guidance only. Both cycle and motor vehicle traffic is entitled to travel straight ahead from this lane. However, drivers should not be aggressive or threatening towards other road users and instances of this type of behaviour should be reported to the police.

    We would not recommend further arrows be painted in this lane, however I will ensure that the existing arrows are refreshed if required.

    Regards,

    Mike Fletcher
    Senior Engineer
    Traffic and Parking Services
    Environment and Regeneration

    Fair play to them, they got the boxes repainted only about a week after I asked them to. If you spot something that needs done, it’s well worth taking a few minutes to write to the council.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Yeah we covered that ned. Consensus seems to be (from a pistonheads thread) that the arrows are advisory unless they are accompanied by the words “Ahead Only”, “Turn Left” or “Turn Right” (Diagram 1036 in TSRGD).
    But traffic police could (if they haven’t had their Snickers) cite you ignoring arrows as a factor in an Inconsiderate Driving charge.

    Good you got some action from the council though.
    https://www.fixmystreet.com/ and http://www.fillthathole.org.uk/ are also useful for reporting stuff.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    If you take the route marked by your red dots then you have joined the roundabout in the right turn lane when you want to go straight on!

    Apologies, that was a mistake on my part as I did it in a rush. Imagine that route starts from the entry at the bottom of the picture instead.

    All the other cars??

    So now our rule is that we drive where other cars aren’t?

    If you do that then we now have at least three different streams of traffic all trying to get to second land of that exit!

    No, there’s one. There’s traffic from the second lane as I’ve indicated, and your fictitious assertion that the second lane after the exit it’s somehow exclusively for the first lane to swing across into with gay abandon. How the hell else are you supposed to leave by that exit when approaching from the entry road at the bottom of the picture, teleporter? Or gradually force your way out from the third lane into the first just to change straight back into the second lane when you leave the roundabout? That’s insanity.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    See, what you’s lot are discussing is nuffin to do with “bothering to indicate” now is it? This is about a poorly marked roundabout, which isn’t actually the fault of the shitty driving public!
    I’d like to present you with a local roundabout of mine, where “bothering to indicate” is a real pain in the arse and causes me issues every day when I ride across it!

    So what you have, approaching from A, is just one “normal” exit, B.
    D is a shopping centre – normally only buses and pizza deliverers. AND ME.
    E is Wickes, mainly.
    So, how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?
    (and what the hell do the dots coming out from E mean? but thats beside the point)

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Or gradually force your way out from the third lane into the first just to change straight back into the second lane when you leave the roundabout? That’s insanity.The Highway Code

    You signal and change lanes to the left after you pass the last exit before yours:

    When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

    • signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
    • keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
    signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

    When taking any intermediate exit, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

    • select the appropriate lane on approach to and on the roundabout
    • you should not normally need to signal on approach
    • stay in this lane until you need to alter course to exit the roundabout
    signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

    I think some of the contention here is that I take the arrows as “signs or markings”, but you are taking the possibility of a turn as a “sign or marking” that overrides the arrow just a couple of metres before it.

    And I can see your argument there. Really I can. It makes hitting that exit lane easier (or it would do if didn’t conflict with all the cars doing it my way).

    I’ve yet to hear anyone explain how me approaching in the middle lane, (which is clearly marked for “straight on” by two sets of arrows on approach) would fit with the Highway Code saying:

    When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise

    signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
    • keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

    The markings on the approach do not “indicate otherwise” do they?
    In fact they directly reinforce what the HC says there, left lane for first exit.

    Premier Icon nedrapier
    Subscriber

    Yeah we covered that ned. Consensus seems to be..

    Really?. Seemed to be 3 pages of arguing about whether you could turn left from a lane with a straight on arrow in it?

    Dez –

    how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?

    I’d expect people use A2 to get to B2. Can’t think of a good reason why not.

    Presumably there’s a B2 there because the capacity is needed to get people off the roundabout. And how else are you going to get to B2 apart from from the inside lane of the roundabout? And if you can come off from the inside, does it matter whether you got there from A, C, D or E?

    We could argue all day long about how it affects the journeys times of those going to D or E from A, or to B from C, D or E, biut you’d only know for sure with in depth traffic studies during conjested times, with chnges of priorities and measuring the effects.

    If traffic’s moving freely, A2 to B2 shouldn’t affect anyone at all.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    (Thanks ned!) Ah, but.. they do, probably half the A-B traffic is A1 to B1 and half A2 to B2. Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates! From A2 to B2 a LEFT indicator would inform C traffic that they can come out.
    Problem for me is, C traffic are so used to non-indication, when I’m going STRAIGHT ON to D, I have to signal right (wiv me arm) or C traffic just pulls out in front of me (and I’m usually not going slowly)
    WHY WHY can’t they indicate LEFT?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    DezB: yeah a change of subject I think.

    So, how do you think people going from A to B behave on this roundabout?

    Two lanes on, two lanes off?
    (thus ignoring the Highway Code unless it has some some signs we can’t see)

    what the hell do the dots coming out from E mean? but thats beside the point

    They seem to be suggesting people joining at B should take the inside lane (lane 2) on the roundabout which is.. erm.. unusual.. but fits with the HC bit about “unless signs or markings indicate otherwise” I guess.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    You signal and change lanes to the left after you pass the last exit before yours:

    So I’m arriving from the bottom entrance (ho ho!) and I want to leave by the right exit, and am turning right after the exit.

    By your interpretation, and following the advisory arrows, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I have to make two lane changes in the space of several metres (which will be fun in busy traffic) to get into the far left lane, leave the exit, and then immediately try and return to the lane I’ve just left in the space of another few yards?

    By my interpretation, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I make one lane change to the second lane, stay in lane as I leave the roundabout by the perfectly clearly marked and valid exit, stay in lane as I progress down the road and then turn right at the junction.

    Even if by some cruel twist of fate you’re actually right and I’m wrong, then it’s still crazy and needs changing. (TBF, even if I’m right the entire roundabout is still shite and needs redesigning, as I said before).

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates!

    I think I can see why. They’re all interpreting it as “straight on” rather than “first exit.”

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