bothering to indicate…

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  • bothering to indicate…
  • Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Maybe, but even straight on you indicate LEFT to exit!

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Sorry Cougar, my fault for rotating the diagram and all that, which bottom entrance? Bottom left on the last version of the diagram (with the red dots)?

    (If so I’ll reply in a bit – gotta go pick up the kids)

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    God knows now, I hadn’t even noticed! Does it make much difference? I thought we were only ever discussing the one exit.

    Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates!

    Problem is that we want to interfere and correct others (see any thread of 100 pages or more).
    #ChillWinston

    Solo
    Member

    DezB – Member 
    Problem is NOT ONE BASTARD indicates! From A2 to B2 a LEFT indicator would inform C traffic that they can come out.

    Shouldn’t you be waiting for said traffic to complete their move, before pulling onto the roundabout/exiting a junction.
    Irrespective of what the little yellow lights are telling you?
    😉

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Maybe, but even straight on you indicate LEFT to exit!

    I wasn’t suggesting they were right, I’m just thinking maybe that’s why they’re doing it. Regular away I see successive cars leave a roundabout exit in front of me, one indicating left and the other indicating right as they both leave the same exit.

    On your roundabout I’d be largely ignoring indicators anyway as they’re unreliable – they could be indicating where they’re going around the roundabout or that they intend to change lanes (A2 to B1 or some such, crazy to do it on a roundabout but y’know, people).

    stumpy01
    Member

    This is genius. I am thoroughly enjoying the level of detail you guys are going into to annotate this one roundabout.
    Top marks to GrahamS for his smooth & flowing arrow style, as well as use of multiple colours.
    It’s just a shame you’re incorrect about the use of the roundabout, the pesky arrows and that lane 2 straight on/left into the right hand lane conundrum!…. 😆

    I’ve only scan read the replies, but aracer & Cougar seem to be agreeing with my original viewpoint & are therefore obviously correct.

    Oh, and on the latest Cougar’s dotted lines which he did wrong teaser, bottom exit as I took it was the bottom of the last pic (with the flowing red & green lines), as opposed to the left hand side of the image which is where his dots originally sprung from…..

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Shouldn’t you be waiting for said traffic to complete their move, before pulling onto the roundabout/exiting a junction.
    Irrespective of what the little yellow lights are telling you?

    You! You are on a thread about BOTHERING TO INDICATE and you come up with crap like that! Jeez, you are part of the problem obviously 👿

    I’d be largely ignoring indicators anyway as they’re unreliable

    YEAH! What’s the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all. Or ignore them..

    hmph

    Solo
    Member

    GrahamS – Member
    I’ve yet to hear anyone explain how me approaching in the middle lane, (which is clearly marked for “straight on” by two sets of arrows on approach) would fit with the Highway Code saying

    The middle lane at the entrance is incorrectly marked wrt to that lane on the roundabout splitting into two lanes.

    The middle lane of the approach should have a combined ahead and left arrow as has been painted in lane one of the eastern approach road.
    😉

    hels
    Member

    The craziness started when somebody put more than one lane on a roundabout. Funnel everybody to one lane at all the entrances and exits, with one lane on the roundabout. Indicate left to leave and right to continue around. All sorted. Traffic would flow better too.

    Although, as all motorbikerists know, the indicator flashing only means that the bulb works. (no it doesn’t, yes it does, no it doesn’t etc)

    Solo
    Member
    Premier Icon Cougar
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    Oh, and on the latest Cougar’s dotted lines which he did wrong teaser, bottom exit as I took it was the bottom of the last pic (with the flowing red & green lines), as opposed to the left hand side of the image which is where his dots originally sprung from…..

    Yeah, I cocked it up cos I was tired and did it in a rush, I said as much earlier. That’s what I meant, approaching from the entrance further round.

    YEAH! What’s the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all. Or ignore them..

    Indicators are a show of intention, but people are idiots and not to be trusted. If you rely solely on indicators as gospel as to what people are actually going to do, you’re going to end up under someone’s wheels.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Thanks for the tip. I’ll hopefully survive another couple of decades of road use now.

    doris5000
    Member

    I think that on Graham’s Roundabout (as it shall henceforth be known), part of the issue is that there are (at times) 3 lanes.

    Remove a lane and it’s clear; left lane for ‘next’ exit, right lane otherwise.

    Add in the third lane & it may help traffic throughput but does add ambiguity.

    Using Graham’s ‘green line theory’ above, then there’s basically no scenario where you would need to be in lane 3. And the HC parts that Graham quotes all seem to assume a 2-lane setup.

    So i think

    the red lines which are people following your previously suggested routes (i.e. routes that ignore arrows and Highway Code in favour of having an easier time getting into the right lane at the exit)

    are actually intended for general use to speed up traffic flow through the junction. Otherwise you may as well just have a 2 lane roundabout.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Thanks for the tip. I’ll hopefully survive another couple of decades of road use now.

    Sorry. #mansplaining

    the HC parts that Graham quotes all seem to assume a 2-lane setup.

    Part of the problem is that many roundabouts in the real world bear little resemblance to THC’s idealised version.

    doris5000
    Member

    Part of the problem is that many roundabouts in the real world bear little resemblance to THC’s idealised version.

    and drivers! 😆

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Well, quite.

    Premier Icon DezB
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    Graham’s Roundabout (as it shall henceforth be known)

    😆

    Don’t name that shite in my town after me though eh?!
    [edit]just realised – every single day this thread will be like an earworm when I negotiate that! Argh.

    Premier Icon funkmasterp
    Subscriber

    I think we should start a petition to have the middle arrow changed, the lanes coloured in and the roundabout renamed to ‘The Graham Cougar Circular’ 😀

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    Circular being the operative word.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
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    Sorry for the delay. Kids!

    Right..

    Cougar:
    By your interpretation, and following the advisory arrows, on entry I move to the third lane of the roundabout. On passing the last exit before mine, I have to make two lane changes in the space of several metres (which will be fun in busy traffic) to get into the far left lane, leave the exit, and then immediately try and return to the lane I’ve just left in the space of another few yards?

    It’s a “straight on” from the bottom left so I assume you mean coming on from the bottom right yeah?

    I’d do this:

    Join in the right lane for the right turn (as per Highway Code and road markings). Move left once past the exit before mine (as per Highway Code). Exit roundabout then select RH lane.

    The middle lane of the approach should have a combined ahead and left arrow as has been painted in lane one of the eastern approach road.

    Which is why I laughed at you saying “If folk just stuck to what the HC says, there’d be no discussion. It’s folk re-interpreting the situation and coming to their own answer is where it starts to get sketchy, imo.”

    Here you are ignoring the Highway Code and re-interpreting the situation to come up with an answer based on the arrows you think should be there rather than the ones that actually are there.

    For the record I completely agree that you/Cougar/aracers plan would work, but if that was the intent then the roundabout would be marked like this:

    But it isn’t.

    (I’m actually quite tempted to write to Gateshead council and ask them to explain it – but knowing them I’d get nothing back. FOI request for the plans maybe?)

    What’s the point of indicators anyway? Nobody uses them correctly so we might as well not use them at all.

    This is probably a good point to say that use of indicators on roundabouts is only advisory.

    And if this thread has taught me anything its that most people are happy to ignore the advisory stuff if they think it’ll take less effort. 😉

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    I’d do this:

    You’re moving out to the first lane too early,

    • keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout
    • signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.

    You wouldn’t change lanes before indicating; so you pass the exit, then indicate, then manoeuvre across. I know this sounds pedantic, but it drastically reduces the time you’ve got to do your 37 unnecessary lane changes, rather than the nice sweeping curve you’ve drawn.

    Plus, veering dangerously back on topic, your indicating to change lanes that early could be misconstrued as an intention to leave an exit earlier, risking the chance that people will pull out on you.

    Premier Icon DezB
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    As I said earlier, I don’t think it’s effort (I mean… effort?!) , it’s just something that’s either ingrained into your driving or it’s not. For some reason (faulty brains I say), for most it’s not.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    it drastically reduces the time you’ve got to do your 37 unnecessary lane changes

    Kinda depends what speed you’re doing. Note the 20 signs on the exit, the fact you are only a dozen metres after the lights, and the fact I said this roundabout is solid at rush-hour.

    One lane change on the roundabout – same as your approach.
    One additional change off the roundabout to get into the correct exit lane.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    One lane change on the roundabout – same as your approach.

    Lane three to lane one is two changes.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    Didn’t you tell me off earlier for changing lanes across a long dash?
    Now you’re telling me that an arrow saying “this lane to go straight on” actually means “leave this lane to go straight on (which is really a bit left)?

    I’m just saying that’s what the arrows are telling you to do, I don’t think I’ve ever suggested that the arrows are telling you to do anything sensible – the whole point of this little interlude is that they’re not (and so by extension none of the arrows on the roundabout can be trusted). Thank you for agreeing with me.

    I do agree that it is odd that the left lane has a straight-on arrow there, but I don’t think that’s a good reason to start changing the definition of the other arrows.

    That’s not odd at all – not if you consider how and where the arrows are providing you with information. By the time you are past the exit those are alongside, those arrows are already out of view, so at that point the left turn is the exit they are alongside.

    However if you like I’ll go with your interpretation of those arrows – this is where it really gets good! So you’re suggesting that the right arrows in lanes 2 and 3 are sending traffic right around the roundabout back to the exit we were first discussing? To the exit which you think you can only exit from a single lane? Which set of arrows are wrong?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    I’ve yet to hear anyone explain how me approaching in the middle lane, (which is clearly marked for “straight on” by two sets of arrows on approach) would fit with the Highway Code saying:
    When taking the first exit to the left, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
    • signal left and approach in the left-hand lane
    • keep to the left on the roundabout and continue signalling left to leave.

    OK I’ll have a go if it helps. The trouble here – and with the whole discussion of Graham’s roundabout – is that you are using your own interpretation of the HC. There are two sorts of road markings here, the ones hidden by other cars when it’s congested, and the ones still clearly visible on the edges of the lanes. You seem to be completely ignoring the latter.

    When you are on the roundabout, the edge of lane markings quite clearly indicate that it is acceptable and correct to turn left there from both lanes. Hence there is no ignoring of the HC from those of us suggesting that is correct.

    As an aside, when I was doing my streetmap tour last night I noted that the next junction on your route has the arrows marked on the road reinforced by signs at the side of the road which you can still see when it is congested. There are no such signs on the roundabout or the approach, hence when it is congested the only available information from road markings is from the lane markings.

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    As it gets us vaguely back on topic, I’ll also have a go at DezB’s roundabout ( 😉 ). I can see why nobody going from bottom to top there indicates – and I’d suggest that actually going from A2 to B2, not indicating may be the correct thing to do, given it could easily be interpreted as an intention to use B1. Meanwhile it seems correct to indicate right to go from A to D given that exit is well past 1 o’clock. Sorry – I’m not doing the usual STW being contrary here, that’s my genuine interpretation of correct behaviour there.

    I can see why from the presumed (but out of picture) orientation of the bottom road you’re describing D as “straight on” but from the actual orientation of the exits on the roundabout it isn’t.

    Premier Icon DezB
    Subscriber

    Nah, everyone (locals!) coming out of C knows that a A2 car indicating left is going B2. Cos that’s what people do. Thing is A2 to ANY exit is not inidicated, so it’s a bloody guessing game. Except the poor beleaguered cylist, who has to indicate or get squished.
    (Actually, my issue is also keeping momentum, so if A2 is indicating left I can go past – if they’re not I have to stop behind cos I don’t know where they’re going)

    But! Doesn’t the sign leading to the roundabout indicate (tell!) which is straight on, which is right? Here’s another one –

    Premier Icon DezB
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    You’re going from A, to Tesco.. which lane and what indication?

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    What a horrible roundabout.

    A2 approach definitely. I’d probably indicate right, then left after the Gym exit.

    Premier Icon DezB
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    Yes! Thank you Cougar – that’s what I think. 3rd exit, right lane.
    But –

    So nearly all go A1, no indication (natch) and you don’t know where the sod they’re going!

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    Thing is A2 to ANY exit is not inidicated, so it’s a bloody guessing game. Except the poor beleaguered cylist, who has to indicate or get squished.

    Well that’s a problem, and the latter just standard fare unfortunately. #bloodycyclists

    But! Doesn’t the sign leading to the roundabout indicate (tell!) which is straight on, which is right?

    Possibly – do we have to play the guessing game now?

    I tend to agree with Cougar on indication on your latest one, though arguably not indicating is also correct – if there was a minor exit on the right which didn’t fundamentally change the traffic flow then it would be incorrect to indicate right, but that wouldn’t change anything for you. Of course if everybody indicated left when taking an exit this issue would largely be solved…

    You’re going from A, to Tesco.. which lane and what indication?

    Surely you’d indicate right until you pass the last junction before the one you want then indicate (and change lanes if you have taken inside lane) left for the exit.
    This may, or may not, have been discussed earlier, but I’ve had work to do and am not reading all that.

    Premier Icon Cougar
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    So nearly all go A1, no indication (natch) and you don’t know where the sod they’re going!

    I knew it was a trap! That’s exactly what I’d do based on the strength of that sign and no other information.

    though arguably not indicating is also correct

    It’s why I said “probably” – it’s difficult to be sure just from a still without actually being there, there may be other information that we’re not seeing (and there was).

    Premier Icon DezB
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    The sign is wrong anyway. Why have they made the housing exit like it’s nothing?
    Pisses me off. IDiot planners.

    Sorry aracer. Sign for that miniroundabout coming up…

    (I really do think too much about this stuff. Glad there’s others like me!)

    Oh, there isn’t a sign at all! Not on Google Earth anyway (will look on way home)

    But thought you’d enjoy this view of the approach to that roundabout with the amazing vanishing cycle-path 😕

    this is the first roundabout (not the one with Tesco) btw.

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    Why have they made the housing exit like it’s nothing?

    Does the sign predate the estate and they’ve never updated it, perhaps?

    Premier Icon aracer
    Member

    Just give us a Google maps link?

    rsl1
    Member

    In a strange turn of events I had an incident with a motorcycle recently where he attempted an overtake on 4 cars all indicating right onto a minor road (still moving) including one which turned across in front of him followed by me who he hit. He wasn’t in sight when I checked my mirrors but the two cars turning right behind me were hence I chose to concentrate on the blind brow ahead (i did spot him with final check but was too late to avoid)

    Somehow there is still a debate about who is to blame despite dashcam footage and him accepting responsibility at the scene… So maybe there’s no point in indicating after all?

    Premier Icon Cougar
    Subscriber

    The irony there is that if you were a motorcyclist you’d probably have seen him. There’s an extra shoulder-check they teach you on the bike course that doesn’t get mentioned on the car one, called (with good reason) the life-saver; I still do it now when I’m in the car.

    Damn fool thing for the biker to do though.

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