Bloody great Russian Carrier in the Channel

Its got nothing to do with people being in ‘Lifetime jobs’ more the ineptitude and short-termism of those at the top that they answer to, politicians

SRSLY?

Though the ordinance on board those two ‘small’ ships will be enough to sink the aircraft career, the entire battle group and any aircraft they get airborne many times over.

I presume this assumes the fleet doesn’t fight back? Or is there really such a big weapons gap that two Western ships can beat a Russian Fleet and all it’s aircraft with impunity? Serious question.

I assume there are UK and Russian Subs in the area. Same question re them. Is ASW so ineffective that Subs can currently blow up a load of ships in one fleet before they’re blown up? Serious question.

And you can bet there is a Navy sub loitering somewhere nearby.

At least two SSNs will have been shadowing the fleet since they set off and will follow to the Med and back.

I presume this assumes the fleet doesn’t fight back? Or is there really such a big weapons gap that two Western ships can beat a Russian Fleet and all it’s aircraft with impunity? Serious question.

All ships are vulnerable to torpedos, one SSN can sink an entire fleet. Hence the Russian fleet will have it’s own SSN escort to try and sink the attacking SSN…..

Brilliant book on the subject is https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silent-Deep-Royal-Submarine-Service/dp/1846145805

Pretty much who can target and press the button fastest.
The type 45 system is mutli-target sequential threat assessive, etc.
It’ll already have worked out the best round to fire and where to aim it before you’ve thought about it.

At least two SSNs will have been shadowing the fleet since they set off and will follow to the Med and back.

Are these the ones that can’t quite go as fast as they’re supposed to? I hope their charts have got the sandbanks on them. 😉

Are these the ones that can’t quite go as fast as they’re supposed to? I hope their charts have got the sandbanks on them.

They can’t outrun Russian SSNs, but they can outrun most surface ships.

And yes, they are the ones which have occasionally grounded…

Peter Hennessy’s book goes into great detail on all the collisions (with sand banks, trawlers, Russian subs and all the problems they’ve had with them). Still amazing pieces of technology.

Common knowledge amongst anyone working in the dockyard down here for years.
The amount of manpower put to screwing over the MoD

Having worked in the Shipyards in which both these companies work, I can assure you that more money is lost to “communication difficulties” between the MOD and the Navy than to any perceived screwing from BAE.

Think about it, when requirements for a new contract are raised, BAE will usually offer two alternatives, a high priced, highly capable one which is basically the Navy’s wish list and a more conservative one which meets the MOD’s interpreted requirements of what it believes the Navy needs….which do you think gets accepted?

Now, assuming its the latter (which it almost always is) contracts are drawn up and signed between the MOD/HMG and BAE. Now, how much time and effort do you think the Navy then places into getting as many of their rejected wish list into the requirements only model? If you guessed “A LOT” give yourself a pat on the bike, that’s right. And so, BAE are, through iterative contract changes, updates and delays, required to alter/adapt/butcher their conservative design into some kind of bastardised version of the pair…

All this time, the MOD with their “job for life” sit there, raking in the £££ not caring how long it takes, whilst BAE, losing money with each delay, change and adaptation, scramble to make any and every cost saving possible so they don’t lose on the contract due to factors outside of their control.

You’d be AMAZED how little money BAE make on a £1Bn contract. Having been there and seen (both in the contract re-negotiation and on the dock floor) most of this first hand…most of the blame cannot be laid at BAE’s feet.

Loving Clodhopper’s comments – you love it you wannabe Kim Philby.

Best thing about scenario is comedy comment from MOD spokesman: something like ‘it’s all pretty normal and expected. We’ll send a destroyer’.

“Why would we want to “do anything about it” ?”

Well, if we can ignore the military hardware fanbois having a circel jerk over things for a moment; it’s not about wanting to do anything about it, it’s that the UK can’t. Forget the ‘it’s a knackered piece of junk’ nonsense; the Russians have more than adequate military hardware for their needs, despite what Western propaganda may say. The UK wouldn’t dare to engage with Russia in any conflict, because it would be absolute insanity. Forget NATO being of any use; no other nation other than the USA would be daft or belligerent enough to want to instigate WW3.

As this thread demonstrates, the UK still thinks it’s one of the big dogs, but in reality, it’s just a yappy little toy poodle. I imagine many in Russia are laughing their socks off at the Royal Navy sending out a couple of boats to ‘monitor’ the Kuzetsov, and I’m sure Putin finds it amusing. This was a symbolic act by Russia, and the UK fall for it. Embarrassing.

I imagine the Chinese are quietly chuckling to themselves, over this latest bit of nonsense…

I imagine many in Russia are laughing their socks off at the Royal Navy sending out a couple of boats to ‘monitor’ the Kuzetsov, and I’m sure Putin finds it amusing. This was a symbolic act by Russia, and the UK fall for it. Embarrassing.

Hardly, it’s standard practice for navel ships in your territorial waters to be ‘escorted’. Happens all the time all over the world. It’s just not a big deal.

” It’s just not a big deal.”

So why’s it all over the news, then? 😕

You’d be AMAZED how little money BAE make on a £1Bn contract.

I seem to remember a senior BAE manager telling me a couple of years ago they’d made so much money on the T45 build they were in danger of having to give some of it back.

They do come unstuck occasionally though – Khareef

I presume this assumes the fleet doesn’t fight back? Or is there really such a big weapons gap that two Western ships can beat a Russian Fleet and all it’s aircraft with impunity? Serious question.

Just think how many UK and allied NATO aircraft are within easy scrmabling distance of that ship as it essentially tours Europe. They can’t really do anything can they? And even if they did that would basically start WWIII which would not be a terribly good idea.

the Russians have more than adequate military hardware for their needs,

Barrel bombing civilians?

Hardly, it’s standard practice for navel ships in your territorial waters to be ‘escorted’. Happens all the time all over the world. It’s just not a big deal.

Yup – Norwegians sent a frigate, I expect the Spanish to do the same. France might roll out the welcome wagon.

So why’s it all over the news, then?

Because selling papers/clicks is more important than the truth.

Barrel bombing civilians?

Carpet bombing them and attacking with drones has worked well for the West…

So where are the ships now? Do they show up on marine traffic shipping websites?

So why’s it all over the news, then?

A bit of distraction news is always good, especially if it’s all “Britain is great, Britain rules the waves”. Half of what’s left of the NHS has probably been sold off on the quiet while this is generating some pathetic flag-waving.

/cynical mode

As pointed out several times, none of this is remotely newsworthy other than it’s the only chance most people will get to see an actual Russian aircraft carrier; it’s entirely standard practice to escort foreign forces through territorial water / airspace.

“Just think how many UK and allied NATO aircraft are within easy scrmabling distance of that ship”

I thought the comment was aimed purely at the two UK ships, which surprised me. I’m less surprised that every submarine, missile and aircraft in range could destroy them all.

Not that it matters since a few peasants with improvised weaponry have beaten us at will in any away match you care to name.

“it’s entirely standard practice to escort foreign forces through territorial water / airspace.”

Perhaps not to describe it as man marking though. Mind you was that from named source, if not I’d be tempted to ignore it.

RT’s take on it all…

https://www.rt.com/news/363403-russia-air-carrier-europe-reaction/

This is STW and none of you have questioned whether that ships wood burner is DEFRA exempt. Shame on you all.

When I opened this thread the picture of the Russian ship came up and then just to the right the advert for World of Warships started – it looked like the Russian ship steamed across the page was targetted by torpedoes and then was sunk. Felt a bit weird

Worked in the defence sector for 20 years and the vast majority of “being screwed” is down to the ineptitude of MOD, continually changing its mind, delaying to ‘save money’ when it doesn’t, failing to even keep its kit operational and pi$$ing-off it’s good people that they leave. Political meddling in procurement decisions which add time and cost, running competitions when there’s only one UK company capable of doing it, foisting requirements on contractors to make stuff that doesn’t work, despite being told not too, Making redundant a significant amount of its technical people such that its no longer capable of even managing upkeep of its own ships such that they keep breaking down. Often they don’t even know how bad they are – they put ships into a dockyard for upkeep and the list of repairs takes twice as long and twice as much to repair and then whinge that they’re being “screwed”. BTW we do still have one carrier, Lusty, it’s parked in Portsmouth and about to be towed to Turkey for scrap.

It’s armed with Chestnuts I see. I had a bunch of those fall on my head last year, it bloomin stung. Though those were american chestnuts.

It’s more in the news because it is delivering weapons and more support to Assad, to carry out his flattening of Aleppo. Coupled with the fact you don’t see a Russian aircraft carrier passing by the UK very often.

or a catapult launched nasalised version of the Typhoon.

Bet we have to pay through the nose for that, too.

Maybe it was a cunning plan of distraction to allow the Norwegians to park up in Scotland:

BBC News Norwegian Navy in Scotland

The Russian Destroyers are well tooled up, but much of the technology is old, obsolete and poorly maintained.

How on earth do people know this unless they work for the russian navy?

or a catapult launched nasalised version of the Typhoon.

Or maybe a harrier jump jet, which we had.

I seem to remember a senior BAE manager telling me a couple of years ago they’d made so much money on the T45 build they were in danger of having to give some of it back.

You seem to forget in his imaginary world he has some kind of clue because he worked there, lots of people have sub contracted to BAE on Type 45, Challenger ,Eurofighter ,Fres, lots of people know how much money goes where, theres a reason they call it Big And Expensive.

Well, at least this lot haven’t sunk any British fishing boats on the way through.

Which we sold for £100m to the Americans less than 10 years after paying £600m to refit them. 👿

strategy, in case no one’s pointed this out (this site’s moving slowly on my work computer so hard to check):

Putin wants a weak and divided Europe.

Conflict in Syria – which might have ended had Russia not propped up Assad – has flooded Europe with refugees. This has put governments under pressure to close borders and increased the popularity of right wing populist parties. Without stories about refugees, Brexit (which certainly is weakening Europe as well as the UK) might not have happened.

Now I’m not in the Putin=strategic genius camp. but it does seem to be panning out pretty much as he’d want.

philxx1975 – Member

You seem to forget in his imaginary world he has some kind of clue because he worked there, lots of people have sub contracted to BAE on Type 45, Challenger ,Eurofighter ,Fres, lots of people know how much money goes where, theres a reason they call it Big And Expensive.

You seem to constantly presume that you know more about things that happened in my life.

Anyway, I’ll bite. Having been part of the contract negotiation teams for both boats 4-7, and part of the Engineering change team charge with looking at the required costs to adapt the design HMS QE to both a nuclear propulsion system and a STOBAR/CATOBAR type launch system, I’d like to think I have some knowledge.

You seem to constantly presume that you know more about things that happened in my life.

Anyway, I’ll bite. Having been part of the contract negotiation teams for both boats 4-7, and part of the Engineering change team charge with looking at the required costs to adapt the design HMS QE to both a nuclear propulsion system and a STOBAR/CATOBAR type launch system, I’d like to think I have some knowledge.

So what?

Fight, fight. Fight

Did it, like, make it out of Pas de Calais ?

Just looking at the clip on the news, is that thing coal fired??

My BIL is on ship shadowing them, not sure if he’s on his T45, but if it breaks down again, be very embarrassing asking the Russians for a tow

Now I’m not in the Putin=strategic genius camp. but it does seem to be panning out pretty much as he’d want.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/ukip/11666944/Ukip-under-fire-after-blocking-scrutiny-of-party-donations.html

Indeed with his support of Trump, was looking to pull off a similar trick to Brexit in the US

That torygraph link won’t open for me:.. Any alternative sources???

Re Illustrious – even if she had remained in commission, she’s almost 10 years older than Kuznetsov