Benefit claims on 10:00 news

I used to live in Merthyr (and my parents still do) and there's some naive/gullible people here if you don't think there's a culture of benefits sponging there. I'm sure there are also a lot of decent people who want to work and don't have many opportunities but there are a heck of a lot of people that just want to bleed the benefits system dry

qcamel – Member

All this Tory bashing is histerical… We are living in a broken country that for a generation has been governed by labour, wake up, it's broken… Time to make changes, and at least this coalition offer real change….

Piffle – under Labour crime has decreased massivly, child and pensioner poverty decresed, healthcare improved.

"Broken Britain" does not really exist – and most of the social problems are a legacy of The tories deliberate policy of creating unemployment to drive wage costs down. "Broken Britain" is a "big lie" technique from the tory press to drive folk into voting tory out of fear.

Aracer – you mean all the folk that the tories moved of the unemployment register? 28 changes to counting methods that halved the headline number of folk unemployed.

Jeezo memories are short.

As for the coalition offering real change? Don't be ridiculous – a slightly harsher version of the same thing.

duntmatter – Member

"Don't get sick. Don't grow old. Don't be poor. Do what you're told."

High cultural references today This country's going down the tubes, I can't afford to pay my dues

"Broken Britain" does not really exist – and most of the social problems are a legacy of The tories deliberate policy of creating unemployment to drive wage costs down. "Broken Britain" is a "big lie" technique from the tory press to drive folk into voting tory out of fear.

Billions in deficit, unions bringing industry to a standstill, spending beyond our income, a benefit system that is abused by some and not enforced, more pointless red tape for business year on year for over a decade, 50% tax rate for those that already contribute the most, and civil liberties and privacy encroched beyond recognition… Feels pretty broken to me…..

whatever you want to say about the benefits system deciding to get draconian on people at a time of rising unemployment, fewer employment opportunities and low to zero growth is destined to fail. In all seriousousness without a commitment to full employment what F@CKING jobs do you people expect them to take are there about 3 million unfilled vacancies?
PS If you are better off on benefits than working we really should be equally angry that employers can get away with paying people less than the bare minimum the state has worked out they require to be above the poverty line.
PPS I work with th elong term unemploymed and frankly with a certain percentage – no skills, education, motivation or ability to hold down employment- will turn to crime rather than work so you can pay them benefits or pay for prisons the later is cheaper for those on the right who like to save money.

Worth watching if you're undecided about the existence of a "benefits culture" in parts of the UK!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00sjs1t

PPS I work with th elong term unemploymed and frankly with a certain percentage – no skills, education, motivation or ability to hold down employment- will turn to crime rather than work so you can pay them benefits or pay for prisons the later is cheaper for those on the right who like to save money.

IIRC it costs about 36k a year to keep someone in prison. What percentage of this figure do you think the state should be paying people to contribute nothing to society?
Apologies for the antagonistic nature of the question btw!, it's come across far more confrontational than I'm intending (alas I'm just back from the pub 🙂 ), I'm just after an idea of basically how much you think the state should pay people not to commit crimes, and what your thoughts are on the underlying morality of this ?

"unions bringing industry to a standstill"

Unions bringing industry to a standstill ? ……..what country do you live in ?

British manufacturing industry was destroyed through deliberate government policy during the eighties – so the unions are hardly in a position to bring it to a "standstill".

And the rest of the economy was well and truly shafted and came to a "standstill" in this last recession, as a direct result of the actions of bankers………it had nothing whatsoever to do with the unions. How can anyone not know that, ffs ?

"a benefit system that is abused by some and not enforced"

What do you mean by "not enforced" ? Do you mean people aren't claiming what they are entitled to ? Because whilst the cost of benefit overpayments due to fraud and error is estimated to be £3.1bn, it is estimated that more than three times that figure goes unclaimed.

The problem of people not claiming benefits which they are entitled to, is far more serious than the problem of overpayment – in fact more than three times more serious, and yet it is not treated with the urgency which it so clearly deserves. But you knew that – right ?

http://uk.biz.yahoo.com/28052010/389/cost-benefit-fraud-revealed.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8118478.stm

"more pointless red tape for business year on year for over a decade"

New Labour's commitment to the "light touch" approach – deregulation and cutting red tape, ie leaving it all to businesses and the markets to regulate themselves, is precisely why the economy is fcuked. No really – what country are you talking about ?

"50% tax rate for those that already contribute the most"

Firstly the 50% tax rate was introduced last month, so how the ****, could it have contributed to "Broken Britain" as you claim it has. And secondly, those on the 50% tax rate do not "contribute the most". In fact what they contribute is fairly insignificant – compared to what the rest of the population contributes.

You live in a fantasy tabloid world mate.

No, I actually live in a world I see and understand..

Get a flight with BA tomorrow, or try and travel on the East Coast Railway, or breakdown and see what the AA lads will do.. All these people are or have been striking in recent weeks, I use them to illustrate the word standstill….. But the unions are kicking off again, and yet the working man in the UK is so heavily protected by legislation that they are fighting for their own existance rather than the members….

I suspect many of those in the 50% bracket are also business owners. Work out what they already pay in NI, Employers Ni, VAT, Corp. Tax, Rates, More in a year than many families will pay in a lifetime….

As far as enforcing those who should claim to claim perhaps you are living in a differant world? We can't afford it…. The country is skint…. Benefits should be a helping hand not a culture… It is out of control the reliance in this country on them…

And finaly, don't believe that Red Tape has not increased, it is crazy the amount there is, the fact is though that although labour were could at passing laws they rarely thought it through and so often it's inneffective… However your 'average small owner managed business' does not have the resources to find the loop holes but the big corps do.. It stifles the lifeblood whilst failing to regulate… Pointless..

The good news is though that at least we need not continue this debate, Labour ain't got much chance of messing things up again until at least 2015, I am delighted about that fact and although unsure about many of the policies of our Govt. am pleased about the cultural change and potential benefits I see coming from that…

The Welfare State was conceived as a safety net, but from my own contacts with some benefit claimants tis more a fishing net. 😥

The good news is though that at least we need not continue this debate, Labour ain't got much chance of messing things up again until at least 2015

The debate's not about Labour, new or otherwise, it's about the scale of benefit abuse along with a side of hysterical misrepresentation of Union power and a moan about how those who derive most from our society pay a somewhat higher level of tax on some of their income. But you're right, we don't have to continue.

Notice when ernie calls you "mate" it means he thinks you're a pillock? It's like when Glaswegians call you "pal".

Notice when ernie calls you "mate" it means he thinks you're a pillock? It's like when Glaswegians call you "pal".

cheers mate

We are living in a broken country that for a generation has been governed by labour, wake up, it's broken… Time to make changes, and at least this coalition offer real change….

1) Broken Britain? Bollocks. http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=15452811

2) "real change" from the Conservatives? The clue's in the name, mate…

No, I actually live in a world I see and understand..

Well in that case (and I'm sorry but try as I might I can't think of a polite way of saying this) you are an idiot. You remind me of those right-wing nutters in the United states who claim that Barack Obama is a Communist because he wanted health care reform.

Because the picture you paint of Britain is completely at odds with reality and the actual facts.

All these people are or have been striking in recent weeks, I use them to illustrate the word standstill….. But the unions are kicking off again, and yet the working man in the UK is so heavily protected by legislation that they are fighting for their own existance rather than the members

You gave an example of "Broken Britain" by saying that the unions were, quote : "bringing industry to a standstill" no mention anywhere about "travelling".

Of course there is an element of truth in claiming that industry has experienced "standstill", this is what tends to happen during a recession – you get negative growth. My own industry construction was/is shagged as a result of the collapse of the housing market.

But as I have already said, this is as a result of the greed and irresponsible behaviour of bankers who were allowed to do as they pleased (after deregulation and cutting red tape). It had nothing whatsoever to do with the actions of trade unions. And anyone who says it is, is either, living in another country, a liar, or an idiot……your options are limited qcamel.

You claim that, quote : "the working man in the UK is so heavily protected by legislation that they are fighting for their own existence rather than the members" Again, this is completely at odds with reality and the actual facts.

Firstly, you give the BA strike as an example, and yet over 80% of cabin crews voted in a secrete ballot for industrial action, that hardly sounds like reluctant trade union members being forced against their will, into industrial action by their trade union leadership. Indeed not having industrial disputes makes life incomparably easier for trade union leaders.

And far from "the working man in the UK is so heavily protected by legislation", many of Britain's competitors are deeply uneasy by the fact that they are competing against a country which provides so little protection for it's workers.

Britain under both the Conservatives and New Labour, has successfully negotiated opt-outs for the Social Chapter and the Working Time Directive, both of which were designed to guarantee basic rights for workers. In fact William Hague, the foreign secretary, has argued for wider British exemption to EU employment legislation.

And all the legislation which gives Britain the most repressive anti-trade union laws anywhere in the Western World, have remained untouched for a quarter of a century – allowing macho bullyboy management such as that of BA, to constantly haul the unions before the courts.

Indeed Tony Blair famously wrote in an article in the Daily Mail just before he became PM, "Britain will remain with the most restrictive trade union laws anywhere in the western world".

Those are the facts. Deny them if you wish – but you won't change them from being the facts.

I suggest you stop taking Rupert Murdoch's "Broken Britain" campaign in the Sun seriously 💡

We are living in a broken country that for a generation has been governed by labour, wake up, it's broken…

You still seem to be able to spend a lot of time sitting pissing about on the the internet – deciding to replace your expensive bike part with a really expensive luxury bike part because it's 'good value'. The cost of either is probably about what many families around the world have to survive on for several weeks.

Get a **** grip. I'm no fan of New Labour but some people have seriously lost all sense of perspective.

Notice when ernie calls you "mate" it means he thinks you're a pillock? It's like when Glaswegians call you "pal".

I use "mate" as a polite term. And I use liberally as in "alright mate?" at work, or "come here mate" when talking to the cat.

If you feel uncomfortable with that, then be grateful I don't call you "geezer". Another term I use liberally at work, as in "alright geezer?"

NB : I get the impression that qcamel is probably more misinformed, that actually a "pillock".
Though I could be wrong.

starseven – Member
Uk annual budget, the big orange bit is benefits….

Which includes pensions.

The political partisanship in this debate is so boring. The Tories union breaking and de-inidustrialisation policy created numerous areas where job prospects have been decimated. If you think you can turn around the economy of some of the places in North East England, South Wales, North West England etc in a decade you're sorely mistaken. There are deep rooted problems which need intervention to solve.

If you're a 40 year old miner with no qualifications and competing with thousands of mates to get a job in a sports clothing distribution centre, you're pretty much stuffed.

Given these areas are Labour heartlands, the previous government haven't done nearly as much as they could or should have. If the Tories follow their traditional small government market led economic development strategy the problem will only be exacerbated.

The Welfare State was conceived as a safety net, but from my own contacts with some benefit claimants tis more a fishing net.

The Universal Welfare State was not conceived as a safety net. That sort of attitude is how welfare is seen in the United Sates – a safety net for the poor. In Britain it was conceived as a universal entitlement.

A good example of that is health care. The NHS was created to provide universal health care for all, irrespective of people's wealth – it was not provided as a "safety net" for poor people. A perfectly sensible approach, as health care should be seen as a entitlement, not a privilege. Contribution is based on ability, not need.

I won't deny that in recent decades welfare has been portrayed as something for the benefit of poor people – much more in line with the US attitude, a disastrous development in my opinion. And an example of that is the recent announcement by the Lib Con government that they intend to scrap Child Benefit for the middle-classes.

But the unions are kicking off again,

Are management not trying to vhange the T & C of their employmentin all the situations you cite? You live in a odd world if you think there si some comparison between the AA – never been on strike, Troley Dolleys and see some comapison with the Miners or the mid 70's – seriously blue tinged glasses with shades of paranoia?
Your general themes about red tape and entreprenuers being the life blood of this country are somewhat tiresome. You should look at theearly part of the industrial revolution to see what sort of world we had with limited regulation, red tape and union power. Those mill workers, child labour, high death rates, no holidays or sick pay etc were really welll treated and the world was a fairer plae then eh.
EDIT: CPT can I see a breakdown of "Social Protection" to see what each part of this is actually made of please. Pensions, benefits and what else?

Well there are some very informed commentators on here and some that are less so… However, I simply speak from my perspective and what I see around me… I standby all I have said and feel a huge sense of relief that the change of leadership appears to be accompanied by a change of direction, I feel and felt the direction we were navigating was wrong and damaging… I am in not right wing, in fact would consider my views to be pretty liberal, but i feel that the balance has been wrong..

I embrace the new govt. and hope that for all, the country becomes a better place than it is at the moment, it seems that all sides if the political spectrum are far from happy….There has to be a message there?

Let's hope the deficit can be reduced, employment increased and employers and employees valued and supported..

Qcamel, out……

Breakdown of social protection:

jeez – how many times can you guys have the same argument – don't you get bored ?

I am in not right wing, in fact would consider my views to be pretty liberal, but i feel that the balance has been wrong..

No, I got the impression that you were probably not particularly right wing, as the sort of stuff you were coming out with seemed more like regurgitated myths from the Sun or Daily Mail, rather than deeply held convictions.

So I apologise for calling you an idiot – I sometimes forget that some people are fairly well insulated from some of the harsh realities of life and rely heavily on news providers who have their own agenda. Not their fault, and my expectations are sometimes higher than they ought to be. I hindsight, "naive" would have been a more appropriate would to use.

……..sorry geezer

cheers Cpt – interesting when broken down pensions and the sick is 115 of the 185 and I assume we all want to keep that bit. Benefits hard to break down as a lumping in family credits means it includes those working as well as those NOT working – ditto housing – this seems easily reducable by buildingmore social housing rather than paying private landlords rents in excess of the mortgage payments – or would that be stiflling the enterprise culture? 😉
Again cheers for link was not disputing it just interested so ta for providing facts …a rareity on stw 😆

I think some of you fell for the labour spin hook, line and sinker. They just reported the figures differently and spun the facts to make it all sound more acceptable.

We're all in for a few shocks in the near future, the biggest will be the truth about what a financial mess this country is really in and theres only one party responsible for that.

question i would like an answer to is how many of those on the sick should be on the sick. How many are truly unable to work? There are many jobs just because your eyesight is crap and you can't join the RAF as a pilot doesn't mean you can't work in an office.

I think some of you fell for the labour spin hook, line and sinker. They just reported the figures differently and spun the facts to make it all sound more acceptable.

Did Labour invent that idea do you think?

We're all in for a few shocks in the near future, the biggest will be the truth about what a financial mess this country is really in and theres only one party responsible for that.

Yep, a Conservative party and all the associated policies were responsible for it, be it the one from 79-97, or the one from 97-10.

Junkyard, add in the child benefit bit which goes to lots of us and then you'll see quite how hysterical the orignal post was.

Yep, a Conservative party and all the associated policies were responsible for it, be it the one from 79-97, or the one from 97-10.

And there in that one sentence is the real problem, there is no choice in British politics. The whole system is screwed and works for the benefit of those in power.

I think some of you fell for the labour spin hook, line and sinker.

And I think some people automatically assume that because you don't fall for Tory spin, you must therefore be falling for New Labour spin hook, line and sinker.

Some people automatically assume that because you recognise that the Tories don't have any answers or solutions, you must therefore believe that New Labour has.

If the general election earlier this month showed anything at all, it showed the massive lack of confidence the British people have in the Tories providing the answers.

Because despite Labour receiving one of the worst election result in it's entire history, and the LibDems doing no better than the previous general election, the Tories unbelievably, failed to win a majority of seats – a completely unprecedented state of affairs.

A year ago when the general election still seemed very much in the distant future, opinion polls were giving the Tories a staggering 22% lead over Labour. Something which would have given them a landslide victory and a majority to die for.

But as election day slowly began to approach, and it also slowly dawned on people that the Tories had no credible alternatives to offer, Tory support went into steady and unrelenting decline.

Until, on election day when support for the Tories was so low, that they failed to win a majority and were forced into a coalition with the LibDems – something they clearly would have preferred not to have been forced to do.

Lack of trust in the Conservatives does not automatically translate as trust in New Labour – and visa versa.
The general election result proves that.

the biggest will be the truth about what a financial mess this country is really in and theres only one party responsible for that

All western governments seem to have been affected by the worldwide capitalist crash resulting from the American sub prime market collapse and subsequent knock on effects. Do you not really think that the banking syytem- and non UK owned banks- and the people lending and borrowing with high risk are not actually more responisble than the govt? You may criticise how they have managed it [ as we may the current one] but to claim they are responisble is as daft as claiming it is the governments fault people eat too much , drive too fast or smoke. Could they really insulate the UK from global markets by policy decisions?

If the general election earlier this month showed anything at all, it showed the massive lack of confidence the British people have in the Tories anyone providing the answers.

Fixed it for you

You didn't need to fix it for me backhander (but thanks anyway 8) )……..that is exactly what I was saying – no confidence in the Tories, and one of the worst election result in Labour's history. And of course the Libdems who should have been raking in the votes, failed to improve on their previous election result.

Of course none of this proves that there are no answers, just that the leaders of the 3 parties don't have them.

…….just stop looking for them in the Blair-Cameron-Clegg Clone factory.

I opened this thread expecting to read about another ConLib minister on his way out. Disappointed…

Junkyard – Member
the biggest will be the truth about what a financial mess this country is really in and theres only one party responsible for that

All western governments seem to have been affected by the worldwide capitalist crash resulting from the American sub prime market collapse and subsequent knock on effects. Do you not really think that the banking syytem- and non UK owned banks- and the people lending and borrowing with high risk are not actually more responisble than the govt? You may criticise how they have managed it [ as we may the current one] but to claim they are responisble is as daft as claiming it is the governments fault people eat too much , drive too fast or smoke. Could they really insulate the UK from global markets by policy decisions?

+1

Since the 1980s governments across the world have seen their powers to control national economies reduced dramatically. It's called the hollowing out of the state and a well documented phenomenon which sees transnational corporations operating beyond sovereign boundaries, exploiting international trade agreements and flaunting domestic agreements.