Attention Motorcyclists…

Are you really arguing that all-round observation is bad practice?

that I have to keep an eye out in case you are going to overtake me – I don’t remember this being taught in the highway code.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/travelandtransport/highwaycode/dg_070309

151

In slow-moving traffic. You should

reduce the distance between you and the vehicle ahead to maintain traffic flow
never get so close to the vehicle in front that you cannot stop safely
leave enough space to be able to manoeuvre if the vehicle in front breaks down or an emergency vehicle needs to get past
not change lanes to the left to overtake
allow access into and from side roads, as blocking these will add to congestion
be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side

HTH. Next?

<applauds Cougar and awaits response with baited breath>

Are you really arguing that all-round observation is bad practice?

I may have alround observation, but that doesn’t give you the right to take away my safe braking distance – it is the responsibility of the person overtaking me to ensure that they don’t inconvenience me, which includes making me brake.

Maybe it is time for you to retake your test:

OVERTAKING, MEETING ONCOMING TRAFFIC, TURNING ACROSS TRAFFIC:-

Overtaking unsafely, wrong time or place, causing other road users inconvenience or danger, too close or cutting in afterwards causing another vehicle to swerve brake or stop. Inadequate clearance when meeting oncoming traffic, causing vehicles to swerve or brake. Turning right across oncoming traffic unsafely causing other vehicle to swerve, brake or stop

see page 256 – Summary of ‘L’ driver faults

be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side

they may pass, and I need to be aware that they are passing so I don’t swerve into them but if they cut in and take my braking distance and cause me to break, they would fail their test.

Next?

They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained – they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.

I can see that it can be frustrating that bikes do this when you cannot get past. However it is not having any significant adverse effect on you in the real world

and who relies on their mirrors anyway ?

heard of blind spots ?

Excuse me for not having read all of the thread. Are we saying that it’s OK for a motorcyclist to cut into my “safe braking distance” but not a car, van or lorry?

TandemJeremy – Member
They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained – they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.

Always assuming that, in the event of something untowards happening, the space in the centre of the road is still clear?

Then your next paragraph mentions “contemptuous ease”; then there’s “badly driven econoboxes”,

As to the first, I mean that it’s so easy to get past you’d scarcely believe it, not that any contempt is meant.

For the second, OK, bang to rights. It’s hard not to look at some of the astonishing inept drivers and wonder how they ever passed a test. The sort of people who drive at a steady 40 in a 50 zone, then carry on at exactly the same pace in a 30 zone. The ones who think that you shouldn’t overtake because if that speed’s good enough for them, it should be good enough for you. These are the people who like to flash you if, gosh, you have the temerity to wake them from their snooze as you go past.

They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained

if they pull in and the resulting distance between me and them is now closer than the recommended braking distance, or 2 seconds if you watched Police Stop! , then they have taken away my safe braking distance and they fail their test.

For the second, OK, bang to rights. It’s hard not to look at some of the astonishing inept drivers and wonder how they ever passed a test. The sort of people who drive at a steady 40 in a 50 zone, then carry on at exactly the same pace in a 30 zone. The ones who think that you shouldn’t overtake because if that speed’s good enough for them, it should be good enough for you. These are the people who like to flash you if, gosh, you have the temerity to wake them from their snooze as you go past.

You’re quite young, aren’t you?

Are we saying that it’s OK for a motorcyclist to cut into my “safe braking distance” but not a car, van or lorry?

And what if it a Honda Goldwing?

I may have alround observation

that I have to keep an eye out in case you are going to overtake me – I don’t remember this being taught in the highway code.

When driving, do you rotate your head 360deg on a very regular basis?

The sort of people who drive at a steady 40 in a 50 zone, then carry on at exactly the same pace in a 30 zone

I am not young but this ^^ is something that should force a retest.

driving too slow (40 in a 50 wouldn’t count though) is also a test failure.

Sorry, uncalled-for pisstaking on my part. Apologies.

And what if it a Honda Goldwing?

Then it is a lorry. Just a very large one.

When driving, do you rotate your head 360deg on a very regular basis?

I have never done this, even when not driving…

120-130deg commonly though if wanting to change lanes.

I am not young but this ^^ is something that should force a retest.

Why? I read somewhere that if the driver feels it’s acceptable to speed at a level significantly higher than the permitted limit, I think it was at speeds of 100mph+, and they have the ability to make judgements on other road users, and believe that they have full control of the vehicle then this should be considered perfectly normal and acceptable.
It is my choice of whether I obey the limit or not, not some expert hidden away in an office.

And what if it a Honda Goldwing?

Point and laugh.

You’re quite young, aren’t you?

Ooh, that man’s trying to chat me up. Calling me young and everything.

Ooh, that man’s trying to chat me up. Calling me young and everything.

Apart from that being an obvious yes, you will find it quite strange when your attitude changes as you get more mature older.

if they cut in and take my braking distance and cause me to break, they would fail their test.

If they cut you up then they’d fail the test. If they safely manoeuvre into a gap then they would not, even if that results in you having to ease off the loud pedal for a moment.

I don’t know if you’re being deliberately disingenuous or just confused, but these are two different situations. The times when I’m overtaken, be that by bike or car or lear jet, I very, very rarely have to brake unless they’ve dived back in directly in front of me and then dropped anchor. You see them coming, slow down a bit, they pass you into the larger gap you’ve just created, and you re-assume your road position behind them.

I really don’t understand why this is difficult or in any way a huge problem, unless you’re driving fixated on the tail-lights of the vehicle in front or just pissed that you’ve been overtaken. Sure, some people drive / ride like tools, but plenty don’t.

I’m afraid i’m one of the muppets.

I’m less of one of the muppets than i used to be 🙂 But i got older and had a child/wife, so i’ve calmed myself down. However many people who’ve seen me overtake them would argue.

In my defence, i feel 100% in control of my bike even at 140mph, my 140mph is like your 50mph in a car.

It’s all about risk assesment, i feel more likely to hurt myself at 10mph at Afan than at 140mph on the roads on my R1’s.

Ohh. Lots had happened on this thread since I last looked. As I only have my phone I’ll have to make a few posts as I can’t copy all that text to quote as easily 🙂

How can you say the layout of the road has nothing to do with whether or not you filter?
What if you get to the front and realise you need to turn left? Or if you get to the front and there’s another bike already at the front you’ll have to force your way into a line of queuing traffic. There are loads of situations where you shouldn’t be filtering and you see bikes jamming their way in at the front of queues every day stopping traffic while they work their way back in.

OK, slightly badly worded on my part, sorry. What I really ment was that KNOWING the layout of the road as someone else said has nothing to do with it. You dont need to know in advance. Not necessary.
If I’m turning left or right at the end it’s no problem I’ll spot a gap at some point and move over. Can’t ever remember getting stuck in the wrong place TBH. But if I did I’d simply carry on the wrong way and sort it put later by turning round or taking a different route.
You’re making an issue here where none actually exists. 🙂

In my defence, i feel 100% in control of my bike even at 140mph, my 140mph is like your 50mph in a car.

Nahh. No it’s not. 140 on a bike is like 140 on a bike. Nothing like anything at all in a car, apart from basic physics. 🙂

As an extension of that,

“Knowing” a road can give you a false sense of security / overconfidence. You might know about the road but not the diesel spill at the junction.

I’m not saying anyone isn’t allowed to do anything. I’m just saying it’s inconsiderate and dangerous to overtake where there isn’t sufficient space to pull in without forcing people to brake

Here we go again.
If someone overtakes you and pulls into the gap in front which FORCES you to brake then you are too close to the car in front. How does pulling into my previous 50mph/50yd gap FORCE you to break? It doesn’t, does it?

As an extension of that,
“Knowing” a road can give you a false sense of security / overconfidence. You might know about the road but not the diesel spill at the junction.

Agreed. 100% correct. You shouldn’t let prior knowledge of a road override basic technique. 🙂

How does pulling into my previous 50mph/50yd gap FORCE you to break? It doesn’t, does it?

Because I’ve decided that I need 50 yards to stop safely, me, not you. 🙄

They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained – they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.

Good explanation from TJ. I was thinking this earlier but I didn’t brin it up as I couldnt be arsed explains another thing that nobody would understand…. 😉

How does pulling into my previous 50mph/50yd gap FORCE you to break? It doesn’t, does it?

Because I’ve decided that I need 50 yards to stop safely, me, not you.

By still, why is it FORCING you to BRAKE? It’s not is it?

I’m going to keep hitting this nail with the same hammer until the nail goes in or the hammer snaps! 🙂

PeterPoddy – Member
They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained – they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.

druidh – Member
Always assuming that, in the event of something untowards happening, the space in the centre of the road is still clear?

I’m going to keep hitting this nail with the same hammer until the nail goes in or the hammer snaps!

happy banging.

Personally I can do all of the above bar moving left and looking up the inside. But I’m rarely in such a rush I have to move all over the road to desperately get past the next car

Phhhhhh. Some people, the more they type, the dafter they sound. 🙂

No. You in a car CANNOT do all of the above. You cannot pull the same manoeuvres as a bike. You cannot overtake in the same way. You are too big, too slow (hyper cars excepted) and too low down. End. I know this because I drive and ride both. It is a fact. Stone. Cold. Fact.

Re “desperate”
Do you write for the Daily Mail, the Star, or the Sport?
There is absolutely nothing desperate about it. Nothing. It’s called using what you have (small size, manoeuvrability and lack of passenger space on one side) to maximise your view of the road and plan your next action. Not it it ‘swerving’ ‘darting’ ‘wandering’ or any other adjective you care to use. It’s all nice and smooth and I doubt you’d really notice it happening.
And it’s not desperate (on my part personally) because I know, 100%, that I WILL pass you. Wether it’s here, now, in a hundred yards, or in 2 miles. So I’m all nice and relaxed about it. I look at the bigger picture (which is a framed portrait of a nice empty road…. 🙂 ) I will be passing. I will choose when based on my own decision, not somebody’s grudging ‘permission’
If you drop back a bit or move left a bit, thanks for that. If its safe I’ll overtake and say thanks as I do. (more and more people are like this I find, refreshingly) if it’s not, then I’ll go some other time, but at least I know you’ve seen me. So thanks again.
But I’m Coming past, like it or not, wether you think it’s safe or not. That’s my choice and prerogative. Sorry if you don’t like it but it’s one of the three reasons I bought a bike in the first place and why I still have one, namely doing 35,000 miles in a van round the south east for years and being bored stuck in traffic watching bikes filter past. 🙂

druidh – Member
PeterPoddy – Member
They are not taking away your safe braking distance as has been explained – they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.
druidh – Member
Always assuming that, in the event of something untowards happening, the space in the centre of the road is still clear?

didn’t brin it up as I couldnt be arsed explains another thing that nobody would understand

😛

Here I go..!

TurnerGuy – Member

be aware of cyclists and motorcyclists who may be passing on either side

they may pass, and I need to be aware that they are passing so I don’t swerve into them but if they cut in and take my braking distance and cause me to break, they would fail their test.

Next?

Turnerguy,
If you spot a motorbike with your excellent all-round observation, why wouldn’t you increase your braking gap to accomodate the inevitable overtake?

..oh and as i drive a van that can be a bit slow at times, i will pull in a bit and leave a bigger gap to the vehicle in front to let faster CARS overtake.

when i’m out on my bandit, i’ll let cars overtake slow moving trucks etc on the long straights and i’ll sit behind, because i know that:
a) they need the space to ovetake, where i do not
b) they are probably not watching me behind, instead being frustrated and looking for the next overtake opportunity of their own.
c) i can overtake them easily and safely at the next opportunity.

just a bit of consideration tbh

I can happily move over the white line to look

If you’re doing this coffeeking, you are defiantly part of the problem.

just a bit of consideration tbh

I think that’s the point that most (certainly those who ride motorbikes) have been trying to make but it has been lost in the usual STW outraged pedantry 😉

If you spot a motorbike with your excellent all-round observation, why wouldn’t you increase your braking gap to accomodate the inevitable overtake?

who said I had

excellent all-round observation

– checking your blind spot is something that most normal drivers should do.

I may, and often do, drop back, particularly if I am not already doing the speed limit, but it is not up to me to do that. If I have the minimum braking distance in front of me then, basically, there is no gap to overtake and pull into. In this case the biker should wait to be noticed and let me drop back and create the gap.

If someone overtakes you and pulls into the gap in front which FORCES you to brake then you are too close to the car in front.

now you are just making yourself look silly.

so I have to maintain 2x the minimum safe braking distance just to accommodate the possibility that someone might want to overtake me ?

Are you assuming that I can just ease off the accelerator to get my braking distance back? What if I am travelling down a slope, what if I am driving a diesel that is slow to respond to engine braking?

In those cases I would have to brake.

If I have a 2 second gap in front of me then I might accept a bike/car overtaking and leaving me 1.5 seconds whilst I ease off the accelerator to adjust the gap, but any less than that is unacceptable. i.e. they should put themselves at risk, and not me.

they will be setting up to use the centre of the road as an escape route in emergancy leaving you with the same amount of space between you and the car in front.

that might be less of a crime and I will probably already moved over to the left side of the road, but if something happens who is to say that either the bike wont also move to the left in the accident, or that road conditions will not cause my braking car to move to the right.

As long as my braking distance is not compromised I have no issue with moving over to the left of the lane to let a motorbike pass, and also not much issue with the speed at which they do it. It is not speed that kills, it is dangerous/impatient driving…

I think that the only answer is to mount cameras on your car so when the insurance claims are being made you have evidence that exonerates you from having caused any accident by dangerous driving and slope out of any insurance claims that the bike rider might try to make against you because you couldn’t stop in time before hitting them, or even any case that the bikers relatives might try to bring against you as they grieve the family member that was riding the bike.

I am going to order some tomorrow.

http://www.7dayshop.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=777_1&products_id=111548

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