Why is acceptable for your to endanger me by forcably reducing my stopping distance so you can get somewhere quicker?

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren’t looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before. So your safe gap has not changed.

You can also see that I’m not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you’re looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate. 🙂

If you are only looking at the vehicle directly in front of you, then you aren’t looking far enough ahead. You can see past my bike (specifically a bike this time) very easily to the car that was in front of you before.

I never said I was “only” looking at the vehicle in front, but that’s what dictates my safe stopping distance. It’s the worst case scenario. If you’re looking at the car 3 cars ahead and assuming everyone in between wont slam on you’re a danger on the road. My safe gap has changed because someone may still run out in front of you, causing you to stop, and even if they only run out in front of the car in front of you I’ve now got no leeway if your brakes are better than my own as you’re in the gap I was using. I don’t see why you can’t see this is unsafe. What worries me more is you have a license.

You can also see that I’m not going to be stopping either, unless the car in front of me (same car you’re looking at) stops too.
In a car I may block this vision, on a bike I do not.

Gotcha. Checkmate.

Fraid not, the ability to see past you does not give me the right to drive up your arse endangering you. Maybe I’ll try that next time, I’ll just ignore the bike and pretend it doesn’t exist. When you’re flattened under my car but I’ve managed to stop short of the car in front we’ll see who’s laughing eh?

You really don’t think thinks through it seems!

Effectively, yes

I’m now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

Who’s just said, and I quote, “He’s a crazy one, isn’t he?”

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it’s just basic driving skills isn’t it?

I see the roads as a place that involves a bit of give and take from all users, hence why you might let someone waiting out of a junction despite it being your right of way or let that old dear finish crossing the road instead of running her down because she’s not on a puffin crossing.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front… afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I’m now lost for words. As is the other chap in the room with me.

There’s nothing crazy about what I’m saying, it’s a simple extrapolation of the situation. If my road position stops you overtaking, yes you do have to wait for my permission. It doesn’t mean I’m thinking “I won’t let him past”. But I think you know that and are just acting stupid for effect.

I always wondered about the mentality of people who deliberately pulled across to prevent me from filtering, now I know.

Really? Where did you get that from?

I always move to the left when I see a bike behind me to ease their progress and if anyone overtakes me and for some reason needs to cut back in in front of me I just adjust my speed so that I still have a safe gap in front.. it’s just basic driving skills isn’t it?

Yep, it is. Still doesn’t make it right for the bike to force their way in.

I would suggest coffeeking that it is really easy just to edge back a fraction (even if you are on cruise control) just to adjust to a reduction in your space in front… afterall if the car in front slows do you slow down too or just plough on at your current speed?? The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

I think you’re mis-reading my friend. At no point did I say I wouldn’t edge back. I just said cutting me up to make progress isn’t on or acceptable. But so far I’ve had two bikers (at least) and a number of car drivers arguing that bikes have the right to cut people up and others should adapt. I’m pretty astounded by this point of view.

The situation is always changing, you need to be able to adapt to it and generally most bikers have far better observation and planning than the average car driver (a necessity unfortunately).

While you might make generalisations, I think you’ll find that most motorbike riders don’t have any better planning and observation other than that afforded them by being higher up. Regardless of whether that’s true or not, of course you need to adapt to the situation changing. No-one ever argued that you should just plough on.

Dear god, I do wonder if some people here can read.

Still doesn’t make it right for the bike to force their way in

🙄

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it’s “their right of way”.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

cut people up

– this I don’t agree with, but cutting someone up is an action that results in them having to take an emergency course of action, not just back off and be a bit miffed that they just filtered back in in front of you.

But that is the same mentality as the person who charges forward to stop someone filtering in because it’s “their right of way”.

No it’s not. Not even close. Please stop jumping to conclusions based on your own biases.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

If people would stop forcing other people to compensate for their rush, the world would be a better place too. I’m very chilled and cooperative on the road, what I dislike (as I’m sick of pointing out now) is when people force me to adapt through blatent aggressive manouvres.

– this I don’t agree with, but cutting someone up is an action that results in them having to take an emergency course of action, not just back off and be a bit miffed that they just filtered back in in front of you.

This is the crux of the matter, in your mind at least, then. I’m never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there’s space. If they make me brake to maintain a safe distance they’ve cut in too close, too quick. It’s cutting in if you fill a safety space and make other drivers take avoiding action.

If people like that just chilled out a bit and helped their fellow drivers on whatever means of transport then things would be sooooo much smoother and safer!

As a car driver and a motorbike rider it’s clear to say that there are numpties in both camps. There are car drivers that close down gaps and bikers that think they have the right to shorten the gap I have left, for reasons of safety.
The group of bikers I allowed to pass me this morning by positioning myself as far on the left as was deemed safe were clear in their gratitude. If they had tried to push me around my reaction would have been different.
Think bike!
Bike think!

but I have no right to go forcing my way up the queue by cutting people up and expecting them to deal with it.

I think you might find driving a little less challenging if you imagined it to be a “flow” of traffic rather than a “queue”.

You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution and I’m pretty sure from your replies which category you fall into.

The group of bikers I allowed to pass me this morning by positioning myself as far on the left as was deemed safe were clear in their gratitude. If they had tried to push me around my reaction would have been different.

Thankyou, finally.

I think you might find driving a little less challenging if you imagined it to be a “flow” of traffic rather than a “queue”.

I don’t find driving challenging. And changing words makes no odds except in your head.

You’re either part of the problem or part of the solution and I’m pretty sure from your replies which category you fall into.

What problem is that? Nice platitudes, shame they’re meaningless.

Hadn’t noticed PP or TJ advocating aggressive or dangerous driving, which is the only reason I pitched in. I have no bias, I have owned a motorbike/car and bicycle.. not a horse tho! 🙂

Having realised you are at that defensive point in your replies to the posts on this thread I am going to bow out!

what I dislike (as I’m sick of pointing out now) is when people force me to adapt through blatent aggressive manouvres.

The thing is coffeeking, if I go for the overtake and have to pull in to the gap infront of you, and you don’t react by increasing the gap to accommodate me, you are effectively trying to force me into oncoming traffic. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do?

Having realised you are at that defensive point in your replies to the posts on this thread I am going to bow out!

I’m only defensive when people make personal assumptinos about my driving and skills without knowing me and without looking at what’s really being said/argued.

What happened in this thread was this:
1) OP posts, kinda got lost now…
2) I post 2 things that annoy me
3) TJ assumes all bikes have the right to fill any gap they see
4) I point out it’s not safe to fill a safe gap
5) PP and TJ argue it is and try to re-target their argument on the way, trying to make it look like I’m anti-filtering and dislike anyone passing me
6) detritus gets picked up along the way arguing that clearly I don’t like filtering

Chinese whispers. The point got lost long ago on most people who got overly emotional instead of looking at it plainly.

The thing is coffeeking, if I go for the overtake and have to pull in to the gap infront of you, and you don’t react by increasing the gap to accommodate me, you are effectively trying to force me into oncoming traffic. Does that sound like a reasonable thing to do?

I never once said I wouldn’t fall back. Where are you getting this tat from? I suggest you re-read the thread.

What I AM saying is that if you go for an overtake and can’t see far enough and get forced into the gap in front of me making me brake to maintain safe room, you’re acting like an aggressive moron.

I don’t find driving challenging. And changing words makes no odds except in your head.

Flow and queue have quite different meanings. Learn the difference, improve your driving experience and the driving experience of those around you.

So how big a gap is safe to overtake into?

When you are faced with a long A-road journey and a queue of cars (10+) travelling 20mph below the speed limit what do you do?

Personally I never try and force a gap, its dangerous and inconsiderate. But if someone is leaving a sensible gap in a queue of cars (10 car lenghts say) I’ll use it to get two or three cars up the queue while I plan my next move up to the next gap.

If you don’t take this approach you would just be resigned to joining the 40mph train as the opportunities to pass a 400 metre snake of slow cars is rare indeed

Flow and queue have quite different meanings. Learn the difference, improve your driving experience and the driving experience of those around you.

I’m sorry, but you really are talking bollocks semantics now – it’s a bit pointless. Either way it’s a progressing line of vehicles with a safe distance between them. Whether you like to call it a flow or a queue or Phillis, I don’t really care, it doesn’t alter how the drivers react.

So how big a gap is safe to overtake into?

When you are faced with a long A-road journey and a queue of cars (10+) travelling 20mph below the speed limit what do you do?

Personally I never try and force a gap, its dangerous and inconsiderate. But if someone is leaving a sensible gap in a queue of cars (10 car lenghts say) I’ll use it to get two or three cars up the queue while I plan my next move up to the next gap.

If you don’t take this approach you would just be resigned to joining the 40mph train as the opportunities to pass a 400 metre snake of slow cars is rare indeed

Without seeing the speeds and distances involved that’s hard to say, but one would assume that if you’re not forcing a gap the gap is presumably larger than just the stopping distance of the car you overtake. Which seems sensible to me (and apparently you too)?

Very often if I see bikes a few cars behind in a long queue I’ll leave a good few stopping distances ahead to let them get in and on, if I’m not planning to go myself. Why slow someone down if you don’t have to? if I’ve not left that long distance I’m going to be cheesed off if they force me to move.

I never once said I wouldn’t fall back. Where are you getting this tat from? I suggest you re-read the thread.

I assumed if I overtook when you hadn’t “invited” me to it would either result in you not opening the gap or sitting there in your car getting worked up about the “maneuver” that had just been pulled on you. I may have come to the wrong conclusion there and I hope I have as neither result benefit anyone on the roads.

I’m sorry, but you really are talking bollocks semantics now – it’s a bit pointless. Either way it’s a progressing line of vehicles with a safe distance between them. Whether you like to call it a flow or a queue or Phillis, I don’t really care, it doesn’t alter how the drivers react.

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

I assumed if I overtook when you hadn’t “invited” me to it would either result in you not opening the gap or sitting there in your car getting worked up about the “maneuver” that had just been pulled on you. I may have come to the wrong conclusion there and I hope I have as neither result benefit anyone on the roads.

Yes, you have. Apology accepted. Yes I get a bit cheesed off by the stunt you pulled, but not “worked up”. All that is in your own imagination.

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

Again, that’s just how you’re imagining things. Please don’t push your own assumptions on how wordings affect your way of thinking about things on other folk. I approach a queue of traffic in much the same way you approach a flow. Only I don’t get worried about naming it in a friendly manner.

Again, that’s just how you’re imagining things. Please don’t push your own assumptions on how wordings affect your way of thinking about things on other folk.

I think you have cause and affect confused here. Anyway, I’m sure it’ll be a pleasure to overtake you.

There’s nothing crazy about what I’m saying, it’s a simple extrapolation of the situation

Indeed it is. You are correct. I shouldn’t overtake without your express permission which I have to gauge has been given by the gap you deem to give me

But in actual fact I’ll make my own decision as to what is safe and what isn’t. If that means I sit in a gap you deem hasn’t given me permission for 10 or 20 seconds, that’s what I’ll do. I’ll make that decision based on experience and my training. I’ll ‘ride my own ride’ and if you can’t deal with that, tough.

That said, fancy coming out for a pillion ride? Just to give you an idea of what you’re arguing against? Genuine offer.

I think you have cause and effect confused here.

How so?

Anyway, I’m sure it’ll be a pleasure to overtake you.

I’m sure it will, I’m stuck in my diesel for now – it rarely has the guts to overtake anything so I’m generally found at the back of a flow just enjoying the ride. 🙂

What coffeeking seems to be saying (feel free to correct correct me, especially if you ARE coffeeking) is that you should only overtake and pull in front of a vehicle that has a gap in front of it of at least twice the stopping/thinking distance.?

Yep, it is. Still doesn’t make it right for the bike to force their way in.

I’M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But in actual fact I’ll make my own decision as to what is safe and what isn’t. If that means I sit in a gap you deem hasn’t given me permission for 10 or 20 seconds, that’s what I’ll do. I’ll make that decision based on experience and my training. I’ll ‘ride my own ride’ and if you can’t deal with that, tough.

Indeed that’s that’s the problem isn’t it. What I deem safe and what you deem safe could be two totally different things. The only issue is that if you nip in for 10 seconds and in that time you have to stop and I kill you, it’s me that has to live with it and suffer the law for being too close. You might be a very safe biker, there are countless dozens of idiots on crotch rockets who are not. Again, my post did say “some”, not all.

That said, fancy coming out for a pillion ride? Just to give you an idea of what you’re arguing against? Genuine offer.

I’m not arguing “against” anything! An no ta, I dislike not having control over my own life/death situations as you might have guessed! But thanks for the offer (I have ridden bikes before though, though I can see the assumption is that I haven’t). 😀

What coffeeking seems to be saying (feel free to correct correct me, especially if you ARE coffeeking) is that you should only overtake and pull in front of a vehicle that has a gap in front of it of at least twice the stopping/thinking distance.?

Not quite, if you wish to pull in at the far end of a gap that’s a stopping distance plus some nominal amount then that’s fine, you’re only reducing your own stopping distance, not mine.

I’M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If stopped, yes you could fit a nice 44 tonner in there. At 40-50-60mph you’ve taken my safe stopping distance away (by force). I’m sure we’ve all done it at some point. Doesn’t make it right.

I’M NOT FORCING MY WAY IN. YOU HAVE LEFT A FEKKING FIFTY YARD SPACE THAT. COULD FIT A FEKKING FOURTY FOUR TONNE ARTIC IN. IM NOT IN YOUR WAY. GET OVER IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hasn’t it already been agreed that this fifty yards gap is to provide a suitable braking distance and anything entering this gap is creating a danger for themselves?
Perhaps you need to look at your riding style before getting into a strop. Just saying like…

Queue implies a line of people waiting in turn, sequentially, to overtake a slower moving vehicle.

Flow implies that there is no waiting in turn, vehicles wanting to make progress will make progress, vehicles not capable or not wanting to make progress allow others to do so unhindered.

Flow sounds like a better way of doing things to me.

Its not that daft a suggestion

Queues only occur in specific situations, like behind a tractor.

Flow as you define it is closer to the reality of what happens.

Although its more like this:

Head of queue(Mr 41mph or genuine slow vehicle)
Car up his arse
Car up his arse(they look like they want to overtake but they can’t be that serious about it because they can’t see to overtake from where they are and if they really were going to overtake they would have already got on with it and there wouldn’t be a big queue)

Car (leaving sensible gap)
Car up his arse
Car up his arse
etc
etc

Into this melee you arrive with 40 miles of unbroken single carraigeway to coomplete you journey.

I’m sure the sensible guy would rather I left his “gap” unmolested some of them might even resent me making progress and having to drop back a bit to maintain his sensible gap but going to make progress anyway and use the safe and sensible gaps that are available to me.

I think you’ll find that most motorbike riders don’t have any better planning and observation other than that afforded them by being higher up

Mostly, yes, agreed. But that one simple thing is such a massive advantage it’s hard to overstate. Vision is EVERYTHING. In a car I almost feel like I’m driving with my eyes closed 50% of the time, if you like. The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go. You can’t do that in a car because you don’t have half the overtaking squirt.
It’s quite often you can be in a fast moving line of cars and someone slows to turn in maybe 10 or more cars ahead and you can slow (if necessary) before the 2nd or 3rd car back does, or plan an overtake of all or some of the cars inbetween if possible, whilst they are bunching up and slowing (shorter time over the white line, see?)

I’m sure the sensible guy would rather I left his “gap” unmolested some of them might even resent me making progress and having to drop back a bit to maintain his sensible gap but going to make progress anyway and use the safe and sensible gaps that are available to me.

And that’s the crux of it. You’re going to make progress whether anyone else likes it or not. By filling the sensible gap you’re making it dangerous until the car has chance to back off and make it sensible again as you now clearly think he must do because you want to make faster progress?

Mostly, yes, agreed. But that one simple thing is such a massive advantage it’s hard to overstate. Vision is EVERYTHING. In a car I almost feel like I’m driving with my eyes closed 50% of the time, if you like. The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go. You can’t do that in a car because you don’t have half the overtaking squirt.
It’s quite often you can be in a fast moving line of cars and someone slows to turn in maybe 10 or more cars ahead and you can slow (if necessary) before the 2nd or 3rd car back does, or plan an overtake of all or some of the cars inbetween if possible, whilst they are bunching up and slowing (shorter time over the white line, see?)

At no point have I said it’s not an advantage? What I’ve said is you’ve caused the person you overtook to be disadvantaged. You may be safer, but you’re not thinking of others.

The other advantage is that you can use all of the road. As in you can move left and look up the inside, and you can nip over the white line without accelerating for a quick look. If its clear, you can just go.

Personally I can do all of the above bar moving left and looking up the inside. But I’m rarely in such a rush I have to move all over the road to desperately get past the next car. I can happily move over the white line to look then decide to either pull back or drop a cog and boot it past. Im’ not sure why you think that’s any different?

Hasn’t it already been agreed that this fifty yards gap is to provide a suitable braking distance and anything entering this gap is creating a danger for themselves?

No. I do not agree. Not do the IAM for what it’s worth. The advanced instructors I went out with would use gaps that, frankly, didn’t exist. I don’t use gaps that small, I’m not in that much of a rush, but when you can see what’s ahead, you can see that nobody is going to be stopping see? So, again, what looks unsafe from a car behind is all nice and relaxed from a bikes point of view. This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It’s not like driving a car.

Sometimes when it seems its the rest of the world, it isn’t, its you.

This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It’s not like driving a car.

Who’d have thunk that? I am surprised that one set of road users finds it difficult to understand the problems another road user has to overcome. Some would call it inconsiderate.

By filling the sensible gap you’re making it dangerous until the car has chance to back off and make it sensible again

See this is what shows me you don’t understand. It’s pointless (but entertaining) arguing with you because you are so blinkered. Get out on a bike with a good safe rider for a while. Do it. Try and open your mind and learn. 🙂

No. I do not agree. Not do the IAM for what it’s worth. The advanced instructors I went out with would use gaps that, frankly, didn’t exist. I don’t use gaps that small, I’m not in that much of a rush, but when you can see what’s ahead, you can see that nobody is going to be stopping see? So, again, what looks unsafe from a car behind is all nice and relaxed from a bikes point of view. This is what non bikers really struggle to understand. It’s not like driving a car.

OK, you don’t agree. If IAM members or instructors were using gaps that didn’t exist I would suggest they were playing on their qualifications to claim superiority while acting like a fool. It’s very common with IAM members.

Sometimes when it seems its the rest of the world, it isn’t, its you.

Do you not get bored? Can you not form a cogent argument, leaving you with only platitudes to fill the void?

Just a thought,

I’m never miffed if someone filters in in front of me where there’s space.

Have you considered leaving a larger braking distance between yourself and the vehicle in front? That way bikes can filter past and be on their way, you remain permanently unmiffed, and you can use the larger distance to absorb fluctuations in the speed of traffic flow which would otherwise cause you to have to inconveniently adjust your speed occasionally. You’re happy, everyone else is happy, and the roads are safer all round to boot.

Some would call it inconsiderate

Understood. But I call it blinkered. Its lack of understanding not lack of consideration.