Another war in Gaza

I would have expected nothing less (/ more) from you deadlydarcy 🙂

concerned

They have a fairly disproportionate way of showing their “concern”.

samj–what of the israeli opposition to this thuggery ?

On the other hand (the making of) Iran’s bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to ‘wipe israel of the face of the map’ with it!

Not that old chestnut. Quotes/sources please?

The fact the equivalent of the entire jewish population of israel had been wiped out just 3 generations ago is, i think , a justified reason to be concerned, and not some ‘shameless’ excuse to act in a certain way.

Past abuses, awful as they are, are no excuse for carrying out current and future ones. You really don’t believe the holocaust is ever cynically utilised by hawkish Israeli politicians to bolster their position? You’re very naive if so

And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.

Yes, well done Samj, its good to see another point of view than the usual suspects, please dont give up as I am enjoying your contribution to this thread.
Its amazing how many personal beliefs people will put aside to position themselves in one camp very opposed to a the majority of their own political leanings, really does bring out the complexity and entrenched opinions people have on this matter, its going to take a politician or leader of Ghandi proportions on either side to put an end to this madness.

I would have to agree with Samj.

Yeah me too ^^

Oh dear are we really reduced to using Pat Condell videos as evidence of anything?

I’d like to see some of you (apart from samj) actually discuss any of the points of this argument, rather than just linking to YouTube videos of ranty bigots slagging off Muslims, and saying ‘yeah I agree’.

Oh dear are we really reduced to using Pat Condell videos as evidence of anything?

I actually thought it was put up as some kind of ironoclasmic thing. Tell me it was wasn’t it?

British ‘diplomacy’ had a big hand in setting this up in 1948 did it not ??

Rudeboy yes British diplomacy and Jewish terrorism murdering soldiers and civilians with gay abandon.

And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.

Grum, have you thought that one through? you seem to imply that people would be more accepting of Israel’s actions if it were less democratic and cared less for human rights. Is it more acceptable to you that the extremists to want to ‘flatten gaza’ because they are extremists. Come on..you can’t have it both ways.

And this may come as a suprise, but no, i am not ‘glad’ of the double standards you describe. That is one of the central points in this thread. Why is it that a daily bombing of civillian populations in Syria ‘bores’ the news agencies…that there are never any pictures of ambulances and injured children when a bomb goes off in a market stall in Iraq, or a high street in Afghanistan, but we are inundated with these images almost immediately & continuously from Gaza? Is it only because there is no foreign media allowed in Syria? That there are no people with smart phones standing relaying the pics to news agencies hungry to broadcast them? – And why do you think that is? – think about it.

Do you think there is no injustice in these places, no arguments over land or religeon in the Arab world? Do you have any knowledge of the scale of loss of life historically in land related disputes between Sunnis/ Shias, other Arab sects? Ask yourself why the only thing you have to say about the situation in Syria is that it’s ‘tragic’ but you have SO much to say on the Israeli/Palestinian conflict

You cannot excuse these countries because they dont claim to care about human rights. On the contrary, that is precicely where you should be focusing your attention & energy if abuse of human rights is your concern.

samj – bang on the money!

Sorry, been lurking until the above. Samj; can you actually demonstrate/link us to any IDF action that is proportionate? I doubt it. By dint of the fact that your military action is pretty much “Extreme” why is anybody who thinks that is naive and misinformed? Israel has previous for destroying residential areas simply because they were not slums (Cast Lead),just as detailed in the posts above. Having first claimed that they had missiles launched from them..funny that their was no smartphone or media coverage of that,or any evidence…

– And why do you think that is? – think about it.

So again,explain to me why the extremists are not in the driving seat. At least Hamas are open about their objectives. Israel has EXACTLY the same plan for Palestine,and are going about it far more successfully than Hamas.

Link from Twitter, but spookily accurate

Duckman, i posted this link above w.r.t cast lead. I think you might agree this guy is not your typical israeli extremist. he just happens to have spent more time studying the facts, and less time forming an opinion based on the bbc’s coverage.

Here’s an idea, cut all foreign aid to Israel, especially from the states. Force Israel back to the original 1947 partition lines, and by force i mean bulldoze all settlements and clear the land, make Israel pay to return it to a suitable state so that the former palestinian owners can rebuild on it and if they overstep the mark again, as they are likely to do by slowly creeping forward whilst mumbling about their past persecution (but we’re not allowed to question the deaths are we?) then the UN can roll in with tanks and bulldozers and airstrikes against the Zionist state till they get the message.

Job done, everyones happy – thread closed.

Although it wouldn’t work quite as easily as that, i realise that many palestinians have sold land to the Israelis and there is a great many sympathetic Israelis who want no part in what the Zionists do in the name of a Jewish state.

It’d be a start though and a level playing field, well it would be after the bulldozers have passed through.

The Telegraph Aug 21 2012
“President Ahmadinejad, despite recent comments that the
Zionist regime was a cancerous tumour which would soon be
“wiped out””

Do you think President Ahmadinejad has had such a pleasant summer that he’s changed his mind on this?

Israel has long been concerned about Iran having Nuclear weapons.
Do Israel have them? Sure. But when have they threatened another country with wiping them out? Bear in mind Israel has had this since prob mid 60’s and are there as a last resort bearing in mind the neighbours they’ve got.

When have Syria invaded another country? 1948 & 1973. Israel would have been invaded by them for a third time in 1967 had it not been for the pre-emptive strikes.

Agree with Samj here. It is tragic that there is Muslim killing Muslim in other parts of the world. However as soon as Israel gets involved it is at the forefront of media attention. More so, the media does not give a monkeys about my point near the start of this post that 700 rockets had been fired from Gaza against Israel in 2012 (prior to last week) and 2500 since 2009. When did that make News at Ten?

you give any monkey matches and he will learn to light them, the cynic in me wonders whose benefit are these ‘conflicts’– Arms industry- big big business- a third of the US economy is arms based– sure they are happy to see their ‘products’ being used.I do not believe that these conflicts are solvable until there is regime change in most if not all the protagonists.

Is it only because there is no foreign media allowed in Syria?

Thankfully, they’re allowed into Gaza, and still reporting despite Israel trying to blow the shit out of one of the media buildings.

And as for your last post samj, yep, it’s a pisser that the media has got bored of Syria, but it doesn’t make Israel’s disproportionate* responses any more acceptable.

*Emphasis there for your benefit as you seem to conveniently continually ignore the disproportionality of the Zionist responses.

Amongst all the critics, the one thing I don’t hear so much of is what would you do if you were in Israel’s shoes being fired at by Hamas who make no bones about their charter which is Israel’s destruction.

Israel has made peace with former enemies – Egypt & Jordan and although these are in reality a cold peace, especially the former, it shows Israel has in the past at least shown the capacity to make concessions and strike a peace deal. However that requires a willing partner and Hamas can not to date be descirbed as that.

And yes, people expect better behaviour from a supposedly democratic modern state with close ties to the west, that claims to value human rights, than they do from Iran or Syria. You should probably be glad of that.
Grum, have you thought that one through? you seem to imply that people would be more accepting of Israel’s actions if it were less democratic and cared less for human rights. Is it more acceptable to you that the extremists to want to ‘flatten gaza’ because they are extremists. Come on..you can’t have it both ways.

He implies no such think and it takes a gymnastic level of mental distortions to suggest he does. He suggest that we expect despots/dictators and the undemocratic to be poorer about human rights than we expect democracies to be. FFS you cannot actually disagree with that statement- do western democracies respect human rights better than Iraq Syria.China etc. Its not implying that at all.
I thought you were arguing well if somewhat entrenched but that is tragic and desperate – you cannot actually think that is what he meant as you are clearly not stupid.

Thanks for a rant on other countries and NO mention of Israel on a thread about Israel.

On the other hand (the making of) Iran’s bomb is not so secret as they have already publicly threatened several times to ‘wipe israel of the face of the map’ with it!

Not that old chestnut. Quotes/sources please?

I notice you didn’t answer this bit.

Also, it’s not double standards to expect better from a country that is democratic, a close ally of the west, and constantly and loudly shouts about their commitment to human rights than you would from a totalitarian dictator. That would be pretty obvious if you weren’t constantly looking to play the anti semitism card. It’s Israel that can’t have it both ways – wanting to be seen as a modern, enlightened, democratic nation, while acting as a rogue state.

All the ‘whataboutery’ in the world doesn’t make what Israel is doing right. And yes, Hamas are probably good at media management – still doesn’t make what Israel is doing right.

Amongst all the critics, the one thing I don’t hear so much of is what would you do if you were in Israel’s shoes being fired at by Hamas who make no bones about their charter which is Israel’s destruction.

Israel has made peace with former enemies – Egypt & Jordan and although these are in reality a cold peace, especially the former, it shows Israel has in the past at least shown the capacity to make concessions and strike a peace deal. However that requires a willing partner and Hamas can not to date be described as that.

Dismantle all the illegal settlements and give the Palestinians back their land? Stop treating them as second class citizens, destroying their homes, taking their water, ruining their livelihoods? That would be a start.

Agreed, the settlements need to cease. Israel vaccated Gaza in 2005 but hasn’t had the desired effect.

Let the Palestinians see that they have something to gain from peace.

Perhaps even help them with economic aid to rebuild their state and try and build peace
A hearts and minds operation is the only way to secure peace for the long run and whatever you think of the current actions they wont win hearts and minds but will turn hearts and minds to hatred , extremism and opposition.
Perhaps offer all the land back if they recognise israel and her right to exist – do you think israel would actually do this
Let all the people return as per the resolution from 1948 and lots lots more

it will be a difficult road that will have huge risks. i doubt a Ghandi on either side would get any /much political support as both sides are so deeply entrenched in their positions

it will not be easy but to keep repeating the current events – attacking every time they have an election – any comment on that sanj?- is unlikely to lead to a lasting peace – any comment on that sanj ?

Again i dont support the bombings by Palestinians but any country treated like that will have “armed resistance” and extremism- if spain did this to portugal for example we would get violence from the Portugeses

Some serious bargaining where by israel gets the peace it wants but gives back the lands it has taken.
I doubt it will happen unless the western democracies and the US in particular decree it and the Arab allies decree it on the palestinians.
I shant hold my breath

never before has a middle of the road pot smoking comedy actor been more poignant..

Yunki- that right, but how to change the system is the biggie !

The system is basically only good for a small minority, and that at the expense of every other poor sod,the limited resources and quite possibly the rest of the creatures that inhabit this place

Well skipped sanj….Why is it you have such good sources of information, but anybody who disagrees with the Israeli action on this thread is misled by the BBC news? Not full of yourself are you?
Again; what in Israel’s actions in any conflict suggests that the Extremists are not in control?

And all for Lebenstraum…oh the ironing!

He implies no such thing and it takes a gymnastic level of mental distortions to suggest he does

Actually all it takes just a little bit of mental application, which it seems is too much to ask from most of the people here.

How about this one.. this might be a bit harder, but try a little bit this time:

Strictly in resonse to DD’s proportionality argument, by analogy – Imagine that someone is swinging an axe at your head repeatedly. He missed the first time. would you try to talk him out of it, or shoot him with your gun? Do we need to add in the point that he has sworn to continue swinging until he actually hits you to affect your response? Now, repeat the experiment 1000 times. are the results proportional? what if you put the axe swinger amongst a group of people -how would that affect the proportionality?

And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for ‘how do we talk the axe swinger out of it’ ? – you are obsessed with complaining that the axe swinger doesnt have a gun.. or arguing how unfair it is that other person has the gun, or that the US gave it to them. Or, JY, that its natural that the axe swinger would do that.

A higher death rate on both sides – that is your proportionality. That is far more appealing to your sense of justice than asking difficult questions.. the Palestinains deserve there revenge given all there suffering – right Junkyard?. If you want a real reason to ‘despair of the human condition’ you have only to read your own posts, and that of the majority of others.

The real reason why Syria is off the news agenda is that a level playing field just doesnt do it for the lazy minded. never mind that the mutual massacre there is off the scale in terms of numbers – there is nothing for you to get angry about there easily.

The Israel/Palestinan conflict is far more appealing to you.. Theres a ‘bad guy’, and a ‘good guy’, and it’s easier for you all to gasp and say ‘wow look how unjust that is’ so you can think you are doing your bit fo the good of humanity without having to challenge your own thinking (/prejudices) in any way.

I’ve been trying to keep an open mind while reading this thread..

I don’t know a great deal about the situation, and certainly don’t hold a strong opinion on it.. I’m always sceptical of the easy/popular viewpoint, so it interested me to hear samj’s arguments..

all that I can conclude from this thread, particularly that last post, is that samj is a bit of a psychopath

thanks yunki. maybe you should stick to posting pretty pictures.

aye.. you’re probably right, perhaps I’m not seeing the bigger picture here.. 🙄

Sorry, but your analogy over-simplifies the situation. I’m fairly sure you realise that already though.

As an analogy I think it’s fairly spot on actually

You’re not suggesting somehow that the holocaust was some sort of zionist confidence trick are you?

And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for ‘how do we talk the axe swinger out of it’ ?

Give the Palestinians back their land, stop killing them, building illegal settlements and treating them as second class citizens – already suggested that. Seems unlikely though doesn’t it.

Your tenuous analogy works the other way round just as well/badly by the way.

And again, whether it not Israel gets a disproportionate amount of criticism doesn’t make what they are doing right. And constantly crying anti-semitist conspiracy only helps further racism by conflating Israeli abuses with Judaism. You still haven’t provided the quotes where Iran has repeatedly said they want a nuke to wipe Israel off the map btw.

samj,
That analogy might work.
If in your given situation, the “axe swinger” is a four year old boy.
And the axe you talk about is a plastic toy one.
But he’s swinging it in anger ‘cos you’ve already shot his older sister and younger cousin for living in the same house.
And you shoot him anyway.

And you shoot him anyway.

and every other kid in the playground just to be sure.. and their families..

Actually all it takes just a little bit of mental application, which it seems is too much to ask from most of the people here.

How about this one.. this might be a bit harder, but try a little bit this time:
There is only so much patronising/ad hominems i can take, its getting a bit childish 🙄

Strictly in resonse to DD’s proportionality argument, by analogy – Imagine that someone is swinging an axe at your head repeatedly. He missed the first time. would you try to talk him out of it, or shoot him with your gun? Do we need to add in the point that he has sworn to continue swinging until he actually hits you to affect your response? Now, repeat the experiment 1000 times. are the results proportional? what if you put the axe swinger amongst a group of people -how would that affect the proportionality?

Imagine you are in their house when they are swinging the axe at you?
does your example still work?

And what have we been debating? Not one of you has put a serious suggestion on the table for ‘how do we talk the axe swinger out of it’ ? – you are obsessed with complaining that the axe swinger doesnt have a gun.. or arguing how unfair it is that other person has the gun, or that the US gave it to them. Or, JY, that its natural that the axe swinger would do that.

I cant speak for the others but i was rather hoping you would explain why this would not actually happen – i keep asking you as i am the hopeful type

the Palestinains deserve there revenge given all there suffering – right Junkyard?.

straw man argument – poor. I say it inevitable i dont defend it,condone it or suggest they can do whatever the hell they like to the axe swinger as that will be fair unlike some.

If you want a real reason to ‘despair of the human condition’ you have only to read your own posts, and that of the majority of others.

I think , like Israel, you may just be winning hearts and minds with this approach. have you considered more reasoning and less of this bile?

The Israel/Palestinan conflict is far more appealing to you.. Theres a ‘bad guy’, and a ‘good guy’, and it’s easier for you all to gasp and say ‘wow look how unjust that is’ so you can think you are doing your bit fo the good of humanity without having to challenge your own thinking (/prejudices) in any way.

You are not very good at understanding people arguments are you ?
There are no good guys and bad guys in this only bad guys and suffering. the issue is how to get a solution again , for I remain optimistic you will answer rather than insult or misrepresent my view, could you explain to me how Israels current behaviour leads to peace and does not inevitably lead to conflict [ which is bad whoever perpetrates it]. You can uses axes iin your example as you seem to have a few left to grind