Another war in Gaza

Remembrance Sunday– what was all that about ??

News is a spectator sport. Just wait until it gets really nasty and watch Sky News… There’ll be a BREAKING NEWS complete with whooosh! every minute…

BTW these ‘rockets’ aren’t fireworks and the fella killed may be a freedom fighter to some but to others he’ll be a murderer. Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.

Israel bashing? I note that the Isreali army or govt spokesperson gets free reign but you don’t get the same coverage for Hamas.

Historic and constant over the years.

Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.

Can you not get Fox news where you are?

Isreal deserves condemnation.

Isreal deserves condemnation.

From your post in the other thread it seems you advocate a bit more than just condemnation.

ohnohesback – Member
Not if the arab world get round to using biological weapons, especailly the sort that can be genetically targeted against jews…

The second quote postulates the inevitable consequence of Israel continuing to behave as it does. I don’t want to see that happen, but suspect at some point in the future it will.

Can you not get Fox news where you are?

Why am I watching a foreign networks news output, isn’t my own nations heavily subsidised corporation who mantra was impartiality not enough?

Wish the British media would stop the David and Goliath (reverse irony) bashing of Israel/Jewish nation.

You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law. Would you crticise CMD if he assisnated a eader we disliked? Would it be Tory bashing then

I’m not sure there would be uproar. There are 1 million Israelis in the cities within a 35km radius of Gaza that need to run to bomb shelters several times a day, and over the course of the last 7 years, on average once every couple of weeks. It takes under a minute from the sound of a siren for a rocket to fall in those cities. try, for a minute to imagine what you’re day to day routine would feel like in those circumstances. you would want military action, you would expect it.

No you have not understood. If we invaded Ireland because of the IRA and then we did what Israel had done do you think the irish would
a) attack us
b) Do nothing
As for the daily routine – do you think Israeli actions affects the daily routine of the palestinains?
I am not suggesting that what is being done to Israel is good merley that it is the inevitable consequences of surrounding a country , economically embargoing their country, illegally land grabbing and settling land. It is quite clearly not a road map to peace but a road map to conflict.

It also doesn’t help to compare statistics of deaths on both sides
It does help show that the suffering is disproportionate on one side and helps counter the points like yours who seem to only want to suggest that the Israelis are suffering. Which side of the divide would you rather live on?
.

That there have been more deaths on the Palestinian side doesn’t change the fact that they are launching rockets into civilian populations, and oftentimes doing that from locations near schools or religious centers.

I am not defending it merely pointing out that it is inevitable given how they are treated

Al Jabri was taken out in a pin point missile strike when his car was isolated.

Your right Israel did indeed kill a politician in a foreign land with a pin point strike. I am less ceetain why you want us to praise their ability to assinate political figures in foreign lands- you seem to think it is a good thing.

but that doesnt stop the bbc quoting palestinian officials raving about a ‘massacre of their women & children’. which is now their default reaction to anything Israel does, regardless of initial cause or reality.

I would say the same about your view tbh you seem to want no criticism of Israel and them to be seen as victims

Yes, israel is militarily a lot stronger than Hamas, but the fact that Hamas have poor quality rockets shouldn’t be used to justify the fact they are launching those rockets into civilian populations, or vilify a response to that.

I think they think that Israel has invaded their land etc and they have a right to defend themselves. For sure it is a complicated situation but to try and present Israel as simply defending itself considering the land grabs , the settling the killing of politicians is at best disengenous. The Palestinians do bear some responsibility for how they got here but Israel is not benign in this.

Israel pulled out of Gaza in 2005. While before 2005 Gaza was ‘occupied’, now it is not, but that will not be enough as Hamas just doesn’t recognize Israel. That is the root of the problem. There are no rockets launched form the west bank into Israel – Where Fatah, despite its dissatisfaction with the Israeli government recognizes that peace will involve compromise.

I have already covered the hamas recognizing Israel line and that last peace accord between them in 2008 was broken by Israel bombing them

It is really unhelpful to present either the palesinians as saints or the Israels as victims or vice versa- you seem to think Israel can do no wrong and is the victim here.

It is obvious that both sides do bad things. However were we to invade a country and start claiming its land what would you expect the inhabitants to do?
That is why the onus remains with Israel to get peace rather than the Palestinains
This is not to say that attitudes on both sides do not need to change notris to say that both sides dont do bad things
Highly polarised pro one side they can do no wrong they are the victims views are part of the problem [ on both sides]

Junkyard,

It is clear that civilian populations on both sides are suffering, i dont dispute that..
And i dont think that israel has done no wrong e.g building up settlements on disputed territory is wrong imo – , but the British media does tend bash israel in a David & Goliath like manner.

However were we to invade a country and start claiming its land what would you expect the inhabitants to do

Israel did not ‘invade Palestine’ the Israeli state was created as part of the 1948 UN partition plan, and there are currently 1.5 million Israeli Arabs – aka Palestinians – living in Israel (within those borders) who have the same rights as any other israeli. They are the ones whos parents/ grandparent did not leave at the time of the partition plan. the ones that did, did so of their own volition (or at the prompting of their arab neighbours who warned them to vacate owing to the war they were about to wage on the new state)

A better historical example of ‘invasion of a country’ is perhaps the Turkish ivasion of nothern cyprus. yet, the cypriots did not bring to the table the suicide bomber, or rockets fired into civilian populations. Hamas did so both.

I dont know what ceasefire you speak of in 2008. there have been countless ‘unofficial’ ceasefires since 2005 most following more intense period of exchange of fires..But the fact remains, that since 2005, when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there has been a unrelenting trickle of rocket fire from the territory into israel. Gaza is not occupied, the so called ‘siege’ did not exist after the withdrawl. that was put in place after they kidnapped Gilad Shalit.

You should note there is no ‘siege’ in the west bank. and Palestinians in the Westbank, can cross into mainland israel through checkpoints.

Finally with respect to this:

You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law

That person is head of the miltary wing of Hamas, and as such responsible for these rocket attacks… Who exactly is Israel supposed to target if not such people? – What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets… I suspect the media response would be somewhat different…

What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets… I suspect the media response would be somewhat different…

And yet despite all these rockets, which are targeted at civilians as opposed to the ‘surgical targeted strikes’ of the Israeli army, the Israelis kill multiple times more civilians than Hamas. Oh I forgot its all their own fault for living near the bad men.

By the way there’s plenty of Israelis that are ashamed of the behaviour of their country in regard to this, including many who’ve served in the Israeli Defence Force. Presumably they’re all self-hating jews conned by the biased anti-Semitic media eh?

hora – Member

BTW these ‘rockets’ aren’t fireworks and the fella killed may be a freedom fighter to some but to others he’ll be a murderer.

For all I’m uneasy about state assasination, it’s not really Ahmed al-Jabaari that I’m bothered about- the other people killed in the strikes were neither freedom fighters or murderers. Especially the toddler and the 7-year-old.

Grum,

And yet despite all these rockets, which are targeted at civilians as opposed to the ‘surgical targeted strikes’ of the Israeli army, the Israelis kill multiple times more civilians than Hamas. Oh I forgot its all their own fault for living near the bad men.

It is not the fault of the Palestinian people. Its is the fault of Hamas, who control the rockets launch locations, and deliberately choose populated areas to launch from. Hamas are after all, the same people that threw Fatah officials from roof tops when they took over the strip. that is the level of respect they have for their own people.

By the way there’s plenty of Israelis that are ashamed of the behaviour of their country in regard to this, including many who’ve served in the Israeli Defence Force. Presumably they’re all self-hating jews conned by the biased anti-Semitic media eh?

No -they are a reflection of the diversity of Israeli society and a western liberal education system that doesn’t indoctrinate in hatred.

Its sad that there isn’t an equivalent voice in the Palestinian camp providing some balance on their side of the fence. I’ve never heard any condemnation for the loss of innocent lives that indiscriminate rocket fire can cause, on the contrary, that always seems to be a cause of celebration for them.

but the British media does tend bash israel in a David & Goliath like manner.

I have not seen any research on this but the research for America shows it reports Jewish Israeli deaths 3 – 4 x more than Palestinian ones – do you have any research beyond your perception? happy to provide a source for min

Israel did not ‘invade Palestine’

I don’t need a history lesson but are you claiming they have never invaded 🙄
We can all see the picture of what was created, what is there now and where they are settling- did they just give the land to the israelis? I am not sure what we should call this “land grab” using military force other than an invasion

when Israel pulled out of Gaza, there has been a unrelenting trickle of rocket fire from the territory into israel. Gaza is not occupied, the so called ‘siege’ did not exist after the withdrawl. that was put in place after they kidnapped Gilad Shalit.

So the palestinians can freely move in and out of their country? They can import and export goods freely? There is no shortage of medicine in the area resulting in countless deaths because Israel does not have it under siege. As for occupied i suggest you look at the internationally recognised boundaries and the actual boundaries – if this is what you think is happening there you will think everything is anti Israeli

You should note there is no ‘siege’ in the west bank.

I would not suggest you use it as an example of how benign Israel is or to show them to be a paragon.[ note the invasion and occupation]

From wiki and please not the 6 day war was started by Israel

In June 1967, the West Bank and East Jerusalem were captured by Israel as a result of the Six-Day War. With the exception of East Jerusalem and the former Israeli-Jordanian no man’s land, the West Bank was not annexed by Israel but has remained under Israeli military control and is referred to as Judea and Samaria Area by Israel. Although the 1974 Arab League summitresolution at Rabat designated the Palestinian Liberation Organization (PLO) as the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian people”, Jordan did not officially relinquish its claim to the area until 1988,[12] when it severed all administrative and legal ties with the West Bank and eventually stripped West Bank Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship.[13]
Since the 1993 Oslo Accords, parts of the West Bank are under full or partial control of the Palestinian Authority. Though 164 nations refer to the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as “Occupied Palestinian Territory”,[14][15] the government of Israel holds that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” should be considered occupied territories.[16] After the 2007 split between Fatah and Hamas, the West Bank areas under Palestinian control are an exclusive part of the Palestinian Authority, while the Gaza Strip is ruled by Hamas.

Finally with respect to this:
You are right we should say nothing at all when a state kills someone else in another state and certainly not when then person they kill is a politician. Poeple say something becaus ewhat they do is wrong and I would imagine illegal under international law
That person is head of the miltary wing of Hamas, and as such responsible for these rocket attacks… Who exactly is Israel supposed to target if not such people? – What if it fired indiscriminately into civilian populations, as Hamas has done today with over 200 rockets… I suspect the media response would be somewhat different…

I am not supporting the use of missiles however the fact remains if you do to a people what Israel has done to them it is inevitable they will be unhappy and attack you – can anyone actually doubt this even you. Do you think killing him has brought Israel closer to peace? Whilst Israel and its supporters ignore this fact and claim everything is justifiable as defence there is no hope of peace [ again of course the attitudes of the Palestinians have to change].
Re the attack
So you are happy to support them killing politicians in foreign lands and the children dieing as collateral damage. It is no surprise you think we are anti Israel as you seem to think they can do no wrong
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Israeli_assassinations
Here is a long list of people who deserved to die that Israel has killed largely on foreign soil.

Its sad that there isn’t an equivalent voice in the Palestinian camp providing some balance on their side of the fence.

I know after all Israel has done for them and this is the gratitude they show them.
I have yet to hear you say anything bad about what Israel has done
Israel right or wrong would seem to sum up your attitude

You should note there is no ‘siege’ in the west bank.

It’s true… A siege is when you surround a fortification trying to get in. I don’t know what the word is for when you build a fortification to trap people inside.

Junkyard,

I think you are the one who is guilty of thinking the Palestinians can do no wrong. I have already said, i don’t agree with Israel building settlements on disputed territory, and i think had they made more of an effort to refrain from doing that and sit down with Fatah, Hamas would not be quite so belligerent today. And no, i don’t think that killing Jabri necessarily brings Israel closer to peace in the long term, just as punching someone in the head is not likely to make you a new friend. But if he’s been kicking you for the past hour, that’s probably what your going to do.

You don’t need a history lesson from me, it is quite clear you can google things and type in the results, but i would suggest that you be a little less selective when you paste on here.

From wiki and please not the 6 day war was started by Israel

Yes, that’s one way to put it. Another would be that Israel started the war in a pre-emptive strike. and yet another way would be that Israel started the war in a pre-emptive strike, in the context of imminent threats of annihilation from surrounding countries.

how about this for context:

“We shall not enter Palestine with its soil covered in sand, we shall enter it with its soil saturated in blood” – President of Egypt, Gamal Abdel Nasser, Mar 1965.

““All Egypt is now prepared to plunge into total war which will put an end to Israel” – Cairo Radio May 16th 1967.

” “Our forces are now ready.. to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland of Palestine. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united. I believe that the time has come to begin a battle of annihilation.”- Syria’s Defence Minister Hafez Assad (later to be Syria’s President). May 20th 1967.

“The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map” – President Aref of Iraq, May 31st 1967.

You see, the Arabs themselves have a lot to blame for the plight of the Palestinians.

And the land itself was not invaded in 1948… when the UN partition was made..Jews had been buying land as part of the Zionist movement in what was a geographical area called ‘Palestine’ since the turn of the 20th Century. And the Palestinians (native Arabs to the land) that were there did not complain when the swamps were drained, and an infrastructure built (as i say above there are 1.5 million Arab Israelis descendents of those who stayed put).
The British Government itself recognized that fact in their Balfour Declaration in 1917!. Google it. enlighten yourself.

You see, Hamas is still fundamentally opposed to the idea of Israel. and their rhetoric today (together with Iran’s) echos exactly what had been said in the run up to previous attacks on Israel (notable the first Israeli war of independence (1949) and the six day war (1967)

Until they understand that Israel has a right to exist, you have to expect Israel to try to protect itself. And it is not a forgone conclusion that a reasonable response to that is to pummel civilians with rockets. And if you understood anything of the above, you would understand you are doing the Palestinians no favours by suggesting that
.

Yes damn those evil terrorist Arabs and their aggressive rhetoric. Thanks god the modern, liberal, enlightened Israelis would never stoop so low.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai was quoted by Israel’s Haaretz newspaper as saying that the goal of the operation was “to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages”.

By the way, I’m sure there are Palestinians opposed to the violent tactics of Hamas, but they don’t fit into the convenient media narrative of shouty fundamentalist Muslims so are largely ignored by the media.

anyone giving this any credence..?

phase one Iran nuclear attack

I think whether Israel has a right to exist these days is a bit of a moot point. It does, it’s powerfull and has powerful allies. Hamas isn’t going to achieve much by constanly kicking it excpet to get their own civilians killed and infrastructure destoyed. It’s not a case or right or wrong, people in Northern Ireland and South Africa finally wised up to that. Once you’re in the mess they’re in both sides have to slowly back away from the confrontation.

The reality is Hamas has a lot more to lose.

Interesting yunki – no idea how accurate it is.

stumpyjon – well according to this guy the Hamas leader they killed was well aware of the need for a proper peace deal.

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.

Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.

“I think that they have made a strategic mistake,” Baskin said, an error “which will cost the lives of quite a number of innocent people on both sides.”

From Haaretz, quoted here (Haaretz article is behind a pay wall)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/16/ahmed-jabari-truce-hamas_n_2142045.html

grum: Yes damn those evil terrorist Arabs and their aggressive rhetoric. Thanks god the modern, liberal, enlightened Israelis would never stoop so low.

Interior Minister Eli Yishai was quoted by Israel’s Haaretz newspaper as saying that the goal of the operation was “to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages”.

Fair enough grum. Eli Yishai is an oaf. He’s an oaf and the head of the right wing religious party, Shas, who are fortunately still a minority. Shas and Eli Yisahai are about as far away from modern liberal as you can get!

Still the point remains, Israel is diverse – and unfortunately for the modern liberals it includes a good portion of nutters. At least they are not running the country alone, though the down side of pure proportional representation is that they do get a say (though that’s also the reason there are Arab ministers in Israel’s parliament)

Sadly for the Pals though, the strip is run exclusively by a bunch of nutters, and though they might have been elected, its run as a totalitarian regime now.

By the way, I’m sure there are Palestinians opposed to the violent tactics of Hamas, but they don’t fit into the convenient media narrative of shouty fundamentalist Muslims so are largely ignored by the media.

I would agree with the first part, though i think the media narrative it doesn’t fit is the narrative of dis proportionality which always seems to dominate.

When people are continuously persecuted, is it any surprise that hardliners eventually get elected? There are numerous examples of this, some very close to home. I don’t need to list them out for you.

Israel’s (for the umpteenth time) disproportionate actions, for which you are being an apologist, do not strike me as the response of a government representative of the diversity about which you crow so much.

If this map is correct the truth of the situation seems pretty stark to me.

I think you are the one who is guilty of thinking the Palestinians can do no wrong.

I suggest you re read my post. I am happy to be explicit once more and say the attitudes of the Palestinians need to change in order to get lasting peace. They kill and bomb innocent israelies and it is wrong. I await you being as forthright about Israel.

I have already said, i don’t agree with Israel building settlements on disputed territory, and i think had they made more of an effort to refrain from doing that and sit down with Fatah,

They have not stopped so more of an effort is to slow down 😯 Surely it is within the power of the modern diverse vibrant liberal democracy of Israel to do this so we are left with the fact they choose to illegally settle whilst you praise them for ignoring international law but slower. Yes my view is somewhat distorted good point
Here have some more research to get upset about 😉

The 27 ministers of foreign affairs of the European Union published a report in May 2012 strongly denouncing policies of the State of Israel in the West Bank and finding that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are illegal and “threaten to make a two-state solution impossible.”[153]

You don’t need a history lesson from me, it is quite clear you :Dcan google things and type in the results, but i would suggest that you be a little less selective when you paste on here.

Nice put down , seriously that is a good one.

You see, the Arabs themselves have a lot to blame for the plight of the Palestinians.

Dont disagree but what you have to do is persuade me that the current tactics of the Israel govt are going to lead to peace and a softening of their attitude to the state of Israel….good luck with that one.

And the land itself was not invaded in 1948

Good date care to see the same statement about the current state n the ground as that is what we are discussing

The British Government itself recognized that fact in their Balfour Declaration in 1917!. Google it. enlighten yourself.

Less good put down 😕 I am familiar with it thanks – pointless saying anything as you will think I googled it. Shall i just make unreferenced assertions instead would that be a stronger debating technique? Perhaps I should accuse you of reading stuff on the Internet and use it as a put down. I mean it would make sense to do this on a forum

You see, Hamas is still fundamentally opposed to the idea of Israel. and their rhetoric today (together with Iran’s) echos exactly what had been said in the run up to previous attacks on Israel (notable the first Israeli war of independence (1949) and the six day war (1967)

Yes any day now Iraq and Palestine could attack IsraelI SO IT MUST STRIKE NOW – are you for real? It’s not like Israel is in the media saying it will start a ground war in Gaze or saiyng that it will bomb/attack iraq over the nuclear issue bit these two are threatening israel….. seriously this is such severe Israel right or wrong with a spin of events so ludicrous its practically fiction.

Until they understand that Israel has a right to exist, you have to expect Israel to try to protect itself. And it is not a forgone conclusion that a reasonable response to that is to pummel civilians with rockets. And if you understood anything of the above, you would understand you are doing the Palestinians no favours by suggesting that

I am not sure what you are suggesting I am saying here do i need to say Israel has the right to exist to satisfy you? It does but that does not mean anything and everything it does under this banner is justifiable, defendable, appropriate or right. Furthermore what it is currently doing is most unlikely to be the strong foundations that will lead to peace.

.

Seems to be reported rather one sided this one..
Reports headline, a rocket fired at Israel followed by Gaza hit by hundreds of missiles.

I may be uneducated on this subject but Israel seems like the aggressor and the british media seems to be reporting it poorly.

is that how it is?

Hmmm – in October alone, 116 rockets and 55 mortar shells were launched against Israel in 92 separate attacks… over 800 fired this year.

Zulu-Eleven – Member
Blah blah blah blah blah blah

DD without the Big Hitters he is lost without someone to take the bait.

Lets keep it that way

Thats right, if everyone agreed with the lefties, life would be so much easier, eh Junky

Face it, the death toll (from Gazan sources) stands at 72, which is a little hard to square with claims of “systematic genocide” – even if all those were killed by Israeli action, rather than by Palestinian rockets falling short and killing their own civilians.

It’s just crap isn’t it. Loads of people getting killed for what?? It’s just really depressing when you think about it.:(

I’m not going to link to it, but there’s an image on Twitter of four young kids – siblings – who died in Gaza today. I look at them, and then my two-year-old sleeping next door, and despair at humanity.

I don’t know mate, but we are better than this. fighting over a bit of land/oil/whatever and killing each other. It’s all about power. We need to grow up as a human species.

I feel sorry for the ordinary Gazan’s trying to go about there life and held captive buy a bunch of prehistoric religious nut jobs who think that lobbing a few rockets into Israel will solve all there problems and for those Israelis who could do without that small percentage of other religious nut jobs determined to claim as much of their ‘ancestral’ home while not actually bearing any of the burden for their stupidity.

Any guesses as to whom is supplying Hamas with rockets?

Does it make any difference?

Any guesses as to whom is supplying Israel with 3billion of aid a year?, or the majority of their weapon systems?.

Does that make any difference either?