animal lovers and eating meat

Ha ha, that's perfect MTG!
😛

Well posted, I was trying (and failing) to remember where I'd seen it posted …

Yeah, I've heard most of those at one time or another.

"You're a vegetarian and you wear leather shoes! Ha!"

Yes, I don't eat my shoes, you pillock.

How can I demand if I only buy what is on offer/available?

If they are there I buy if not I don't. i.e. there is no demand from me but there is supply. So the equation of demand & supply does not make sense.

So if I do not demand who are they going to sell/supply? Certainly not me but some other maggots I guess.

But you have forgotten the fact that it could be the supermarket pushing the meat to you hence they create the demand themselves rather than ordinary maggots.

😆

I'm pretty much with Zulu Eleven's first post on Halal & Kosher meat. Often the lines between culture, race and religion become very blurred.

What concerns me is that when fast food places etc. offer Halal meat, they often offer it exclusively. I can see why they would, for simple economic & practicality reasons. But I would prefer to eat something that's been slaughtered by the methods that have been codified specifically to minimise suffering to the animal. Most likely codified by a committee who knew an enormous amount about it.

As for only eating certain bits, there's very little waste really – I know a butcher, and there's a reason the mince and shin beef is a lot cheaper – it needs shifting! And of course, if we didn't eat meat, most livestock would exist only in zoos.

" And of course, if we didn't eat meat, most livestock would exist only in zoos."

Row 2, Column 4

Grows me own.

This is a bit like trying to justify owning pics of kiddy fiddling isnt it.With Chews logic having those pics is ok because he didnt do the fiddling, and buying them doestn not create demand for more.

Its frankly bollocks.

I like eating meat and I like killing stuff to eat, I dont think you should eat meat unless you are prepared to kill it or at least take responsibility for its death. (according tho TJ my moral compass needs recalibrating but lets face who listens to anyhting he says ) Chew your logic is not logic, its wooly thinking.

How can I demand if I only buy what is on offer/available?

perhaps they only offer what you will buy?
Are you seriously suggesting that if everyone stopped eating meat the meat industry kill rate would be unaffected as the meat eaters behaviour is not linked to the supply of meat/killing of animals. It is a either a poor troll or poor thinking.

I dont think you should eat meat unless you are prepared to kill it or at least take responsibility for its death

+ 1 I could not so I don't
Apologies if this has been posted but makes me chuckle – I am a vegan.

Junkyard to be honest I'm not into veggie baiting, I have respect for vegans/veggies. It boils my piss when meat eaters will not face up the fact that eating meat = killing for pleasure, becasue they cannot accept it. I am happy with my meat is murder ways, I don't see the need try and obfuscate the truth like other carnivores. I feel sure that in the future meat eating will be banned (maybe 50 years) hence I'm eating as much as I can until its too late…

toys19 – Member
Junkyard to be honest I'm not into veggie baiting, I have respect for vegans/veggies. It boils my piss when meat eaters will not face up the fact that eating meat = killing for pleasure, becasue they cannot accept it. I am happy with my meat is murder ways, I don't see the need try and obfuscate the truth like other carnivores.

+1 😀

Chewkw, just because you buy what is already displayed on the shelf, doesn't mean you are not creating demand.

I used to work in stock control for a supermarket. Taking the chicken example again, it would only take five people like yourself to buy a chicken, and that would mean I would order an extra box of chickens for the same period the following week. As you know, the worst crime for a supermarket is to have empty gaps on the shelves, so if those five people then didn't bother to buy a chicken the following week, they may well get thrown out as waste when they don't sell. (although we would normally reduce them to about 20p to avoid this!)

Thinking about it, if I was ordering the meat, does that mean I was more 'guilty' than yourself? I would take the opposite view, I only order the chickens as people like yourself are buying them. Take battery hen eggs, if the choice was down to myself, I would only stock free range, but if people are buying battery, there is a demand and I have to (as I was merely an employee) order more to restock.

Zulu whats the pic that is missing?

Sorry toys, probably best seen here, page one, with associated banter 😀

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/can-you-kill

What goes on in an abattoir is quite horrific and should be quite properly kept from the public's gaze.

Cobblers, everyone should know exactly what goes on to get you your bacon sarnie. If you still wanna eat meat after that fine. If you still wanna eat meat but would prefer more humane treatment for animals speak to your MP/supermarket bulk meat purchaser/butcher/whoever. If you wanna go veggie/vegan go for it. But don't kid yourself that the cutesy lambs hopping about in spring and the tastey chunk of sunday roast don't have a little in common.

And chewkw, seriously?! Big river in egypt? Denial. Get with the game man, you're just as culpable as every other meat eater. This airy fairy BS you're spouting just makes you sound stupid.

I will keep being awesome 🙂

Donk: "And chewkw, seriously?! Big river in egypt? Denial. Get with the game man, you're just as culpable as every other meat eater. This airy fairy BS you're spouting just makes you sound stupid."

LOL! Denial? I am not involved. They sell I buy what is available on display otherwise I will not demand simple.

😆

I can't think of anything to say that will help chewkw understand that he is talking nonsense, so I'm going to the gym.

Soobalias, back to your original question about halal stuff,

i've asked my token muslim friend about it, and he's got very strong views on the matter.

(to him) for meat to be considered as halal, the animal must be treated with respect througout it's life, and during, and after, it's death.

he finds it very hard to find 'halal' meat that even claims to satisfy this, and it seems that the halal standard is much less controlled and monitored than he thinks necessary.

consequently, meat he's happy to buy is quite expensive, consequently, he doesn't eat much, which is probably what his prophet partly had in mind in the first place.

my friend also thinks that the high animal welfare standards in the uk mean that some non halal meat is closer in spirit to the concept of halal, than most of the stuff sold as such simply because the animal was slaughtered with a knife.

from what i can understand, for the true concept of 'halal' read 'hugh fearnley whittingstall would approve'…

ahwiles, that's most interesting.

FWIW, I think that if someone told me that I was definitely going to be imprisoned until fat enough, and then killed and eaten (simply because they wished to eat me), but went on to ask me how I would prefer to be killed I would ask them whether their question was some sick joke and refuse to express a preference.

The coin don't have no say. It's just you.

In addition, I can say with reasonable confidence that I am not responsible for the suffering of Dairylea Dunkers, as I never buy them.

chewkw, you're ignoring me!

100!

To be fair to chewkw, it must take him some time to translate the question, then his response into English from his native tongue. He is making a better stab at it than I would.

I am not involved. They sell I buy what is available on display otherwise I will not demand simple.

Back to the stolen bike analogy, which you keep ignoring. They sell, you buy what's available, you're not involved, what's the problem?

Back to the stolen bike analogy, which you keep ignoring. They sell, you buy what's available, you're not involved, what's the problem?

I prefer my kiddy fiddling pics analogy…

Chewie doesn't have any idea about supply and demand, I think he is either a troll or in serious need of help to teach him how to think, I suggest he should start with an education.

clubber – Member

100!

Why you! D'oh!

toys19, sc-xc & Courgar,

I guess it's just a hard concept for you understand as you keep focusing on the market pull (customers demand) mentality but completely ignore the aspect of product push (supermarkets get you to buy), so simply associating all the responsibility to consumers I guess is rather naive is it not?

😯

Oh I get it now, if the supermarkets push the products and none of the customers buy, then the supermarkets will still stock the product then? I see now, of course how foolish of me not to see that, well done Chewbie you done as all proud mate with yer smart thinking.

chewkw, mate. With all due respect…you are |<——————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————————–>| about this far out. Have a little think about what you are saying (i.e. – pop down to planet earth, take the blinkers from off your eyes and read an 11+ text book). It's a little embarrassing.

That's it for me on this one, if you really don't get it..there's no point trying to talk to you.

chewk you ignore all reasonable posts on this. Please explain to me why the murder/slaughter/butcher rate of animals would be unnafeected by everyone turning veggie. This is alogical conclusion of what you state as clearly what meat eaters do has no affect on their behaviour.

DONK do keep being awesome amoral but awesome 😉

Product push? Supermarkets *force* you to buy their produce? Are you -really- that feeble?

And you still haven't answered my question.

About the only thing that you could argue that supermarkets 'push' is loss leaders which could be things like milk or bread, designed to make consumers think that if staple items are cheaper than the competition, the rest of their trolley will also be cheaper.

To be honest I don't know if they still use loss leaders, seeing as they all use independent 'basket of good' type advertising now.

Chewk, I've not belittled your views, just put some reasonable questions forwards which may challenge the five rules you follow.

spooky_b329 – Member

About the only thing that you could argue that supermarkets 'push' is loss leaders which could be things like milk or bread, designed to make consumers think that if staple items are cheaper than the competition, the rest of their trolley will also be cheaper.

They do not have to be loss leaders so long as the price is acceptable to the consumers who think they got a bargain.

To be honest I don't know if they still use loss leaders, seeing as they all use independent 'basket of good' type advertising now.

It's already factor in otherwise people will feel it.

Chewk, I've not belittled your views, just put some reasonable questions forwards which may challenge the five rules you follow.

Not at all. The point is to challenge yourself to answer that five questions and to see how close or how far you are involved in the suffering of the animals or none at all. The questions are not intended to lead you to the extreme of answers i.e. be a vegetarian/vega or meat eating caveman. The extreme of views can be rather destructive as no matter how you view the world there is suffering by proxy (to animal or some other beings).

The 5 questions are to get you to know your link to the nature of things and to see if you are mindful in what you eat in practical reality. i.e. eat meat but must not kill the animal. Plausible? That's the question.

Cougar – Member

Product push? Supermarkets *force* you to buy their produce? Are you -really- that feeble?

And you still haven't answered my question.

I have already answered your question but your extreme views have prevented you from understanding them so I think your glass is too full. Empty a bit otherwise you will be unable to get new water in.

🙂

p/s: To the OP whichever method of slaughtering animal the end result will be the same. Animal suffering.

I have already answered your question

No, you haven't. How is eating meat that's already been killed any different, in terms of your 'rules,' from buying a bike that's been stolen?

but your extreme views

Extreme views? I'm veggie, you buffoon. I'm about as impartial as you're likely to find.

chewkw unless the animal gets killed accidentally or in a manner incidental to the commercial production of food you are clearly partially complicit because you help create the market for which the animal is killed. Unless you personally only eat roadkill or dead animals from the skip behind the vet's, or food discarded by others, you are a self-deluding solipsist with no proper understanding of logic or ethics.

I am a devout Carnivore btw. But you have to accept that eating meat involves a moral dimension and responsibility which you cannot shrug off by not personally directly ordering the death of the specific animal. 😕

water buffalo it knew it was going to be killed.

animals cannot contemplate death.

chewkw; if no one buys bikes will they still make them?

self-deluding solipsist

This whole thread has been worth it just for this tiny gem. 😀

Stoatsbrother – Member

chewkw unless the animal gets killed accidentally or in a manner incidental to the commercial production of food you are clearly partially complicit because you help create the market for which the animal is killed. Unless you personally only eat roadkill or dead animals from the skip behind the vet's, or food discarded by others, you are a self-deluding solipsist with no proper understanding of logic or ethics.

Yes, road kills – assuming it is a fresh rabbit accidentally killed – hit & run). Dead animals or from skip – No for hygiene reason.

Question: If you are vegetarian will you eat road kill meat? i.e. the rabbit – it did not suffer nor was it farmed. If not what is your reason for not eating it?

The self delusional takes thing to extreme. I don't as I accepted that the fact that someone must do the slaughtering and with the understanding that I am not the one that gives the order to terminate the animal's life.

The person(s) that is directly involved in my views are: The decision makers ranging from the farmers to the supermarket manager that order more animals to be killed.

I am a devout Carnivore btw. But you have to accept that eating meat involves a moral dimension and responsibility which you cannot shrug off by not personally directly ordering the death of the specific animal.

Like I said I eat meat, except beast of burden and few others, so as long as the animal is not killed on my behalf or in my name or for me. My intention is not link to the killing hence I do not have the direct link to the killing. I have no control over individual action. However, if I know the person is "unethical" in keeping the animal I will not go anyway near him/her.

Most arguments especially those with extreme views will try to link everyone up with the killings. The question is where do they stop? They are all proxy to suffering no matter how they try to argue. Think about it.

[/quote] Cougar – Member

No, you haven't. How is eating meat that's already been killed any different, in terms of your 'rules,' from buying a bike that's been stolen?

The bike is stolen so do you need to be philosophical about that? It is stolen so don't buy it. Simple? What is there to compare?

The 5 questions are about killings & taking of lives.

The meat in the supermarket is not stolen. Simple.

Extreme views? I'm veggie, you buffoon. I'm about as impartial as you're likely to find.

Being a vegetarian is a good thing but what is your underlying reason for being a vegetarian? What is your principle in this? Where is your guide? Now you can be as philosophical about this as much as you want.

🙂

thomthumb – Member

animals cannot contemplate death.

All living beings will cling on to life no matter how "stupid" they might look, if you haven't noticed this then you need to start observing.

chewkw; if no one buys bikes will they still make them?

I don't know. You need to answer that question yourself.

Before, there was no Apple iPod/iPhone/iPad etc so why are people flocking to them now? Did Steve Job say that you must have one?

Elfinsafety – Member

This whole thread has been worth it just for this tiny gem.

Only the delusional slaughters animal with a prayer.

Holy scripture in one hand while the other hand with a knife.

eating animals is what made enabled us to grow big brains
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/aug/11/bones-stone-tools-meat-eating

some might say that only the delusional pray, full stop, but thats more of a qustion for the religion thread.

but to take your point in context, should we as a county allow the 'delusional' to slaughter animals?

somebody said earlier that any method of slaughtering results in animal suffering, i dont believe that to be entirely true. I think that the length and severity of suffering is completely in the control of the slaughterer as it were.

I might play with avoiding halal meat and see if it causes any dramas in my life

Anyway, bacon for brekkie this morning!

Chewkw if everybody in the world developed an overactive guilt complex and stopped buying meat the industry would stop immediatley, makng a lot of people unemployed (won't someone think of the poor farmers!) You buy meat so you are part of the process, if you're bothered about the treatment of the poor little animals stop buying meat and/or start lobbying for changes to the industry.

"I only meat because I don't want farmers to lose their jobs" is a more credible argument than your 5 questions.

The self delusional takes thing to extreme. I don't as I accepted that the fact that someone must do the slaughtering and with the understanding that I am not the one that gives the order to terminate the animal's life.
The person(s) that is directly involved in my views are: The decision makers ranging from the farmers to the supermarket manager that order more animals to be killed

This is utterly delusional on your part. Why do they order more meat ? A whim or is it due to demand by consumers like yourself? AGAIN by your argument the amount of murder/slaughter /butchering of animals would be unaffected by everyone turning vegetarian no matter how much BS you write on this it is just that BS. Clearly eating meat has not helped your brain develop
Kimers from your link

As the ancestors of early humans turned to meat for sustenance, they were able to grow larger brains which in turn enabled them to make more sophisticated tools[/Quote]
Why are lions and other pure carnivores not the brightest creatures on the planets rather than a bipedal omnivore? Could our use of tools [which is linked to bipedalism /increased blood flow to our brains] be the critical factor here rather than diet?