Almost everything that can be said about cars in one easy GIF

This would be a damn good place to start. When you complain to the council about how much of a pain it is to use a ped crossing, they shouldn’t be allowed to tell you that they can’t do anything to improve it because it would hold the cars up. Which is what I’m up against here – chap says there’s a meeting tomorrow where they’ll be talking about options for our local one, but I’m sure none of them will involve prioritising peds over cars.

Meanwhile back in the real world, complaints in the local paper complaining about pedestrians having the audacity to use a zebra crossing and hold the cars up (IME the only thing you’re ever delayed from there is from joining the queue at the traffic lights on either side – and I tend to only drive there at relatively quiet times).

As for what we can do, I’m sure it doesn’t do any harm politely badgering the council to do things, even if the response is fairly predictable. If the weight of requests comes more from pedestrians than drivers then things might change…

solutions to the problem are relatively easy and well known, the political will to take space away from cars is a whole other problem.

We’re asking the wrong people to do the right thing. Stand for election the next time there are local council elections.

solutions to the problem are relatively easy and well known, the political will to take space away from cars is a whole other problem.

Are they? Because beyond over simplified generic ideas I tend not to hear much in great detail.

Are they? Because beyond over simplified generic ideas I tend not to hear much in great detail.

They are. Continuous, high quality, segregated cycling infrastructure, combined with reduced permeability for private motor vehicles. Look to places where it’s been done, like Copenhagen and the Netherlands, and copy like our lives depend upon it.

It’s the infrastructure, stupid.

Umm, cycling is neither mass transit nor the most convenient form of transport.

What you describe is certainly part of the solution but it is neither the whole solution nor practicable for everyone.

the most convenient form of transport is walking – the requisite aparatus is built-in.

nor the most convenient form of transport

It depends where you are going. I can think of plenty of journeys where a bike is the most convenient, most of them are in France, Holland and Germany though. Getting to the centre of town here I have the choice of car, bus, bike and walk (it’s about 2km).

The fastest door to door is without a doubt the bike.

Given the time it takes to get the bike out and lock it up on arrival running is pretty close.

The bus goes via the station so takes longer. It only runs every hour so if you nip in to the bank etc., it’s quicker to walk back.

The car has to be parked somewhere, can’t enter the pedestrian zone and has to follow the one-way system. People park near my home and walk in.

@Squirrelking. Your long response reads more, “everyone else should change but not me”. If that isn’t the case then I apologise.

Umm, cycling is neither mass transit nor the most convenient form of transport.

Nobody thought to tell the Dutch or the Danes.

Amsterdam: 32% of traffic movement in the city is by bike compared to 22% by car and 16% by public transport. In the city centre, 48% of traffic movement is by bike.

Because beyond over simplified generic ideas I tend not to hear much in great detail.

Over simple? The solution isn’t complicated, because we don’t need EVERYONE to stop driving completely. We just need more people to do what a lot of people already do, and governments to put money in.

Serious question for the group – do people cycle, specifically commuting in this case because

A) They are cyclists and it’s a fairly logical conclusion for “us”.
B) Driving in slow moving traffic is a frustrating hassle.
C) It’s faster.
D) Trying to lose weight or similar.
E) Something else.

The vast majority of commuters I know (socially and years in Bikeshops) were cyclists. IE they own a roadbike and/or a mountain bike and generally another bike to commute on. They’d identify as cyclists first and foremost so commuting by bike was logical and much easier for them than non cyclists. I can’t help but think that all the infrastucture in the world won’t shift people’s mindsets nor will it turn lazy people into active people. It’ll take a change in mindset and culture that’ll take generations.

Molgrips, it’s not simple here’s one reason why:

I can’t help but think that all the infrastucture in the world won’t shift people’s mindsets nor will it turn lazy people into active people. It’ll take a change in mindset and culture that’ll take generations.

By over simplified I mean people have all these great end plans but rarely have any idea how to get there. It’s not as simple as just saying throw down a cycle motorway and hope people use it.

Edukator – sorry, that should actually have read ‘isn’t always’, my apologies.

Miketually – Last I checked Amsterdam is a city which is low hanging fruit. The real challenge is to engineer the suburbs and commuter belt in such a way that mass transit is a viable option. Stuff like hospitals that have desent public transport links throughout their catchment area rather than a few token towns who’s services run seemingly at random (Hi Monklands, Crosshouse looking at you!).

This is what I’m talking about, shouting about turning every city into an Amsterdam clone is all well and good but nobody ever seems willing to actually go into HOW we do this on a societal level, never mind taking into account climatic differences that really do put a dampener on things.

Sandwich – you may be half right, I’m sure if I put my mind to it I could cycle more but it would end up costing me financially (extra nursery costs), in time, in sleep (try telling a two year old you need more sleep when you’re supposed to be looking after her) and overall I don’t see myself being any better for it at this specific moment in time. That doesn’t mean I can’t see the bigger picture and would willingly use public transport if it was as affordable and convenient as driving.

Well for one thing it might help if people didn’t feel happy to find any excuse not to ride a bike. It is partly about an attitude of mind.

Very few of the cyclists in Amsterdam probably call themselves a cyclist, its just how they get around. I was there last month, its kinda surreal to experience it!

How Amsterdam became the bicycle capital of the world.
http://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/may/05/amsterdam-bicycle-capital-world-transport-cycling-kindermoord?CMP=share_btn_tw

Miketually – Last I checked Amsterdam is a city which is low hanging fruit. The real challenge is to engineer the suburbs and commuter belt in such a way that mass transit is a viable option.

You can build bike paths out into the suburbs, that happens around Amsterdam too, engineering the suburbs for mass transit is never going to work well, they developed because of the car in a manner that works for the car, they would work fine if most residents in the suburbs didn’t all drive into the same nearest city along the same few roads. The problem is there homes are not on that corridor nor walking distance from it.

If you live in the suburbs you have to accept you will never have great mass transit, growth and new homes should be focussed on densifying existing cities or existing transit corridors so that new population is added in a way that adds the least number of vehicles.

A) They are cyclists and it’s a fairly logical conclusion for “us”.
B) Driving in slow moving traffic is a frustrating hassle.
C) It’s faster.
D) Trying to lose weight or similar.
E) Something else.

Well for me, it was the reverse of that. I started using a bike because of B-E & thus became an A.

A devel­oped coun­try is not a place where the poor have cars. It’s where the rich use pub­lic trans­port
– para­phrased from Enrique Penalosa, for­mer Mayor of Bogotá, Colombia

I’m sure you’re right, there’s some fundamental difference in the climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.

Sigh.

Well for one thing it might help if people didn’t feel happy to find any excuse not to ride a bike. It is partly about an attitude of mind.

Might also help if the folk advocating it the loudest weren’t quit so sanctimonious about it. Assuming that was a dig at myself.

I’m sure you’re right, there’s some fundamental difference in the climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.

Sigh.

Yup keep it up, you’re really out there winning hearts and minds aren’t you?

How about the differences between Glasgow and Edinburgh? Generally wet vs generally cold, which do you think makes for the better experience?

How about instead of snide remarks and smart arsed comments you actually answer my questions?

If you live in the suburbs you have to accept you will never have great mass transit

Sorry but that’s nonsense (but in a constructive way). Rail services spreading out of Glasgow, tram in Manchester, tube and rail in London. It’s all there ready to be used plus god knows how many other disused lines. It’s possible, you just need to make it convenient enough and cheap enough that folk actually WANT to use it.

How about instead of snide remarks and smart arsed comments you actually answer my questions?

Life’s too short.

My boy (6) told me off the other day, for driving to the shops.
“We should ride our bikes” he said.
“Way more fun than sitting in the car”

He’s right of course.

(to be honest, we almost always ride our bikes to the shops)

The solution to our problems, is with our children.

Umm, cycling is neither mass transit nor the most convenient form of transport.

No, it’s not mass transport but on the benefit/total cost/complexity side of the equation, for the a good many people (~65% is a figure I’ve seen) it’s by far the best option. You can travel a fair distance, at minimal cost, with minimal infrastructure costs (compared to building roads/trams) and go exactly where you want.

How about the differences between Glasgow and Edinburgh? Generally wet vs generally cold, which do you think makes for the better experience?

Really? Bike sheds round here are full all year round, so are the buses/trams. And it makes both Edinburgh and Glasgow look relatively toasty warm and dry for a good chunk of the year (how does 3-5 months of snow and ice sound?) it’s just a matter of mindset. And warm clothes.

By over simplified I mean people have all these great end plans but rarely have any idea how to get there. It’s not as simple as just saying throw down a cycle motorway and hope people use it.

When I said it was simple, I was talking about public transport rather than cycling. The proportion of able bodied adults who can be persuaded to commit to making a physical effort is probably no more than a third at best, I’d guess.

In the long term maybe we can persuade people that cycling doesn’t constitude a physical effort, but whilst there are hills in our cities this won’t be easy.

Bike sheds round here are full all year round, so are the buses/trams. And it makes both Edinburgh and Glasgow look relatively toasty warm and dry for a good chunk of the year (how does 3-5 months of snow and ice sound?) it’s just a matter of mindset. And warm clothes.

FWIW I’d take cold any day of the week. I can stick wind, I can stick rain but both together is bloody miserable. We rarely get snow these days so I’d take that as well, at least it doesn’t soak you through (unless blizzard conditions). It’s a different kind of cold if you know what I mean?

The Glasgow vs Edinburgh thing was what I was alluding to there, Edinburgh might be cold but it’s also relatively dry when compared to Glasgow.

When I said it was simple, I was talking about public transport rather than cycling.

So was I, I just used the cycle paths as an example. It all has to be integrated or it will never work and it has to be done so in a way that it’s seen as the carrot rather than the stick. Yes, it’s simple on paper but in the real world you need to get a complete shift in attitudes and behaviours before it really works. Not to mention a complete change in the way public transport is run and funded. Those are the complexities that need to be discussed as well as how we achieve the change (legislation, taxation etc.).

As someone said though it’s only something that came about a couple of generations ago, it’s probably folk of my parents generation who were the ones it started with (boomers).

Oh and it was a way back but re: the fatbike commuter – I can better that with the guy who used to commute from Paisley into Glasgow on a Brooklyn Race Link!

Serious question for the group – do people cycle, specifically commuting in this case because

A) They are cyclists and it’s a fairly logical conclusion for “us”.
B) Driving in slow moving traffic is a frustrating hassle.
C) It’s faster.
D) Trying to lose weight or similar.
E) Something else.all of them (although C can be a close run thing if you include bad weather and shower/change time at the end) Driving in traffic is a hateful experience, commuting by bike incorporates exercise into your day (aswell as thinking/chillout time). All the jobs I’ve had I’ve made sure I can ride there primarily and can take public transport as an easy second option.

Living and working within walking distance of busy train stations helps, not sure what will happen when we move, but I’m sure riding to the station will be an option….or of course a new job 😕

In the long term maybe we can persuade people that cycling doesn’t constitude a physical effort, but whilst there are hills in our cities this won’t be easy.

Our cities aren’t exactly mountainous though are they? I’m sure plenty of people can name a steep hill in a town, but for the most part, cities and major towns are pretty flat. And is there a major difference in cycling rates between ‘hilly’ and ‘flat’ cities in the UK? Bristol is hillier than Ipswich, yet Bristol outdoes Ipswich for cycling by a long way.

If you asked parents why they don’t let their kids ride to school how many of them would respond “because it’s a bit hilly and little Jonny might get a sweat on”? How many would respond “it’s too dangerous”?

I know this was sarcastic, but it’s got one bit right:

I’m sure you’re right, there’s some fundamental difference in the climate, and the people and the terrain and the mindset and the layout of the facilities in Amsterdam, Copenhagen, Bremen, Stockholm, Groningen, and all the other places where public transport, walking and cycling are widespread.

It’s the infrastructure. Do you think people would drive their cars so much if there were no roads wide enough for two lanes of traffic? Or if all roads went from one empty field to another? Build high quality, safe, direct infrastructure for cycling and walking that has priority over/equal to the infrastructure for motor vehicles and people will walk and cycle more.

Actually, that should be “more people will walk and cycle”, it’s the non-cyclists that we need to get on their bikes, just normal people using a bike because it’s easy, not ‘cyclists’ (and I’m one of them) using a bike because it’s extra training or they like the adrenaline rush of mixing it with traffic.

Telling drivers to play nice doesn’t work. Telling people to ride their bikes doesn’t work. Telling people who are already riding bikes to wear hi viz and wear helmets and ‘share the road’ doesn’t work. We’ve been doing all these for decades and cycling’s modal share is at a mighty 1.96% (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts03-modal-comparisons).

You can’t measure the need for a railway line by counting the number of trains ploughing, without a track, across the countryside. You can’t measure demand for a bridge by counting people swimming across the river, or hang-gliding across a ravine. You can’t measure demand for cycle infrastructure by looking at the (low) number of people riding on the (perceived as) hostile, dangerous roads.

I bet most of the people who go on holiday to Center Parks wouldn’t call themselves ‘cyclists’. But when they get there and the cars are parked for the week and there are safe routes and riding a bike is easy and convenient oddly enough, they ride bikes. Then they put them back on the bike carrier, drive back home and don’t touch them until they go back next year. The British aren’t genetically hardwired to not cycle, we’ve just built an environment that discourages it.

No public transport through the village where i live….that said the nearest town is only 2 mins in the car up the road (so perfectly cyclable) and it has an Ambulance Station, if only their HR dept wesnt so crap and would process my transfer faster!….soooo, currently travelling 4 hours each to my old NHS trust in the South East!….obviously i dont do that everyday, i travel down and do a run of shifts and then go home for about a week.

Travis – Member

The solution to our problems, is with our children.

We could get them to pull rickshaws?
You’re a genius.

Interesting thread

I agree on the point of build the infrastructure and they will use it. But there is much more to it than that as pleaderwilliams said on page 3

When I think about the type of people I work with or have worked with over the years I can’t help thinking it would make very little difference to things. Lots of people seem to change job and location but do not move house

The people in cars have generally been middle ranking upwards and fall into the categories

– Those who choose to live in a location for lifestyle reasons and commute by car
– Those working for a national business and need to travel around the country
-Those who moved jobs but not house

The people on public transport or walking

– Those travelling to a central location to undertake a clerical or low skilled task
-Those who live near work (Mainly above)
-Those who live near a convenient transport link (mainly London)

The people cycling

– Cyclists
– A few of the people who are on low paid jobs on BSOs

Over the last 18 years with the same company I have fallen into almost all of those categories at some point.

I can’t help thinking that better cycling infrastructure would cannibalise public transport and not really address the issues of cars on the road, I think to do that you need to convince the middle aged middle class middle management to continue to live in the city.

I’ve never worked at a location where great cycling infrastructure up to the front gate would have helped that much I don’t think.

In countries where cycling is widely used as transport, it is kids, older people, and women who tend to cycle. Middle-aged self-important blokes still drive. Basically, the opposite of this country.

Hence, even on a cycling forum (full of middle-aged self-important blokes), many people don’t get it.

I think to do that you need to convince the middle aged middle class middle management to continue to live in the city.

Good luck.

I’m only 38 but couldnt wait to leave the South East, it was OK when i was single and going out lots with my single mates and the odd couple….but once everyone hit 30 and started buying houses, partnering up, having sprogs etc the aim has been to get the hell out of dodge….cities are crap for families, certainly down South anyway, they’re expensive, crowded, dirty etc….no privacy or open space to call your own….you’d have to pay me to live in London.

For just 50k more than the 2-up/2-down terrace we had in the South East we’ve moved to a village location and live in an 1850’s era 3-bed cottage in 4 acres of land with stables, double garage, off road parking etc….as a bonus we’re also 20mins from the coast and have a few of the Welsh trail centres nearby….but yeah, go on then, tempt me back to the City?!

Car use is convenient….it just keeps coming back to that word i’m afraid, you can label it lazy if you want (i couldnt care less) but having a car and being able to live hours away from where i work has meant we’ve been able to move away from the hussle and bussle of the outer London area and have a quality of life that would be unaffordable to us if we stayed in the South….we priced up similar properties in the South East the other evening to see how much our place would cost if you lifted it up and plonked it down in the outskirts of London, Surrey etc….it would treble or even quadruple in price and working in the NHS on a very average salary that just isnt going to happen….trying to guilt trip people like me into giving up the car and living close to work would effectively limit the chance i’d ever have of living in the countryside or owning a nice house, you create even more haves and have-nots than there are already….same as when some plank suggests taxing the arse out of fuel to penalise people for driving, all it does is hit the poorest first as running a car is a big expenditure for them….the wealthy carry on regardless.

The only way i can see things working is if people who live in cities by choice have cycling infrastructure put in place for them and maybe some kind of tax break to give up the car….as i said in a previous post; congestion, traffic, whatever you want to call it stops being an issue once you’re out of cities and decent sized towns so the rest of the country looks on bewildered at the funny attitudes of the city-types who seem to think everywhere in the UK has everything nearby and within cycling distance….its no wonder people like myself get defensive, if you choose to live in a city and want to vote for pro cycling Mayors, councillors, MPs etc to change things then bully for you, just dont expect the rest of the country to fall in line with your view of how we should all live, work, travel etc.

and maybe some kind of tax break to give up the car

as opposed to paying for people to drive as many places do now, obviously I’ve never done this but the people Ive spoken to who have it seems to be a nice little earner to help pay towards a car you would already have.

I know there’s a couple of companies about that pay for mileage but I’m sure they pale into insignificance compared to those paying for driving mileage.

Some reading for squirrel:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html

and another one from there about shared space which I mentioned earlier:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/search/label/shared%20space

aracer:
http://www.aviewfromthecyclepath.com/2011/02/all-those-myths-and-excuses-in-one-post.html

It’s quite reasonable to assume that people will cycle less in truly mountainous places, but if your area is less hilly than Switzerland and you have less cycling than Switzerland, think about the reason for this. It’s not the hills.

I like that!

deviant, people living in the countryside generally isn’t the problem, assuming you also work in the countryside somewhere. But if you live outside of the city and commute into it, then you’re part of the problem, you’re also wasting your time and money commuting, that could be spent more locally if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work. Nobody is trying to convince everyone to move back, but we need to build the infrastructure to promote this type of lifestyle as the alternative (more people living in the countryside/suburbs and driving) is not sustainable.

“I cycle so you could cycle too”. People often think that because the conditions are good enough for them to cycle that everyone else would too, perhaps after a bit of training. Actually, this is not remotely true, and training has been shown to have little effect on its own. The reason is simple: training does not change conditions on the streets, and therefore does not improve subjective safety to the point that people want to cycle.

Me too!

aracer I don’t think you have either read or understood a word I have said so far if that’s supposed to be some sort of admonishment.

Minister ‘hangs head in shame’ over British cycling provision

….. you’re part of the problem…… wasting your time and money commuting……if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work……not sustainable.

This kind of nagging really isn’t helpful. People like deviant (presumably someone who likes riding a bike, so on ‘the right side’ to start with) are evidently, from his post above, put off. So the people who haven’t sat astride an enduro gnarpoonsteed in decades aren’t going to think “oo, sounds great, I’ll support that bike lane petition”.

It’s not about telling individuals “tsk tsk, you’re very selfish, stop driving your car”. It’s about local and national government doing something that actually makes a huge amount of economic sense when the cost:benefit ratios are looked at and providing decent infrastructure. Yes, it might take individuals to put pressure on MPs and councillors, but those individuals aren’t going to be won over by telling them they’re selfish, lazy polluters.

It’s not about making people ride bikes/walk/use public transport. It’s about letting some people use bikes for some of their journeys, some of the time. The way to do that is to make it feel/look/be safe and direct and convenient. Nagging is not going to do anything, apart from p**s people off.

deviant, people living in the countryside generally isn’t the problem, assuming you also work in the countryside somewhere. But if you live outside of the city and commute into it, then you’re part of the problem, you’re also wasting your time and money commuting, that could be spent more locally if you lived nearby and walked or cycled to work. Nobody is trying to convince everyone to move back, but we need to build the infrastructure to promote this type of lifestyle as the alternative (more people living in the countryside/suburbs and driving) is not sustainable.

I work in the “country”, my wife works in the city. Should one of us give up our job or are we better off just getting a divorce? Or, should I continue driving as necessary and let her take the commuter train full of people?

Daft escalation, yes, but I’m proving a point

TBH if everyone moved to the city it’d be even less pleasant than it already is.

And a lot of countries already have a problem with depopulation of the countryside.