[Closed] A new Tesla for £25k? Sounds good.

If they get that to market at anywhere near £24k, for one you'd want to own (ie with some basic spec) then it's a potential game changer imo.

In reality, i suspect the number will start with a 3 for anything that actually drives out of the showroom..... (look at the prices of i3's,Leafs etc)

There's also the issue that dealers will need to start moving their revenue stream from a servicing/looking after based model to a retail one. ('lecy cars don't need nearly as much attention as ICE ones, and without reasons to visit the dealer, they will need to make more money on the initial sale to stay viable)

Unless it comes with something to top the Insane or Ludicrus mode, not worth it

Surely the price will be like bike parts so $35000 = £35000+

It'd be a game changer if you could get one for £25k but I cant' see it happening. I also wonder what cars like this will be worth when they're out of warranty. There's some pretty expensive batteries that would need replacing along with a shedload of electronics that can go wrong.
I've seen some eye-watering bills for Mercedes cars when they're out of warranty and I can't see Tesla being any different.

If autopilot mode will drive me home from the pub, I'm in.

In theory I have a BMW 330e on order. If that falls through I would look at one of these. What puts me off is the awful interiors, and that they don't drive as well as BM's

Also infrastructure & charging is an issue. As leccy cars get more popular (which they are doing massively so at the minute) people will end up waiting for people to charge so they can charge, and who wants to hang around for 3hrs at a service station while your car charges?

I'm waiting for them to release an SUV...

There's some pretty expensive batteries that would need replacing along with a shedload of electronics that can go wrong.

8 years warranty on a model S

But anyway .... you'll probably be able to take them around the back of the many many high street shops that sell phone covers, chargers and cheap screens replacements ... 😆

.thepurist - Member
I'm waiting for them to release an SUV

They already have, it's the model x. Problem is the back doors open upwards so you can't fit a roof rack for canoes etc. They do a rear bike rack though and I think it it rated to tow.

I've seen some eye-watering bills for Mercedes cars when they're out of warranty and I can't see Tesla being any different.

So you're saying these cars powered by thousands of small explosions a minute might not be reliable either? They'll never catch on.

It might actually tempt me to buy a new car at £25k, if they could offer a finance package over a longer term (i.e. the 8 years warranty) then is you were doing ~12,000 miles a year it would be cost neutral against something like a Focus for £12k (assuming your £12k and therefore petrol focus does 40mpg and petrol stays at 105p/l and the finance is 0%).

They already have, it's the model x

Dammit! Do they do a large estate car that's infinitely better in so many ways?

with a shedload of electronics that can go wrong

But there isn't a shedload of complicated gearboxes*, transmission* and exhaust systems to go wrong?

* My knowledge of all things automotive is vey shaky, but my understanding is that electric cars don't need these? (one motor on each wheel with no gear box?)

Likely to start at £35k in the uk after taxes, but still a game changer. My Golf hybrid listed at more than that. If it comes with supercharging and a real world range of 200 miles then for most people who can fast charge at home range will never really be an issue. I was toying with putting a deposit down this morning, but I think I'll wait and see what the other manufacturers respond with first.

I'd be very tempted, I'll miss the first lot as my car is due to be replaced in Dec, but come 2019!

I really tried to have a Nissan Leaf last time, but with a real world range of 60-70 miles I just didn't work and the guy in Nissan just gave a nervous laugh when I asked about carrying a bike and muttered something about finding a decent rack and it doing terrible things to the range.

It'll be nearly 3 years until my Golf is replaced, so I'm really hoping they'll be here and fairly readily available by then. In the mean time I'm loving doing most of my driving on electric. It's really disappointing when the engine cuts in. Currently averaging 128mpg and 5mpkw. Each kW costs me 6p, so not a bad combination whilst I wait for a better solution.

This is partly why I was happy to get my new yeti on 3 year deal.
It has a perfectly suitable 1.4TSi engine but in 3 years time I'm hoping electric or hybrids are much much better.

. Dammit! Do they do a large estate car that's infinitely better in so many ways?

Well the X is kind of SUV/estate.

I wish they did a model S "waggon" though as it would be huge. You can already get an extra 2 seats in the back of the normal S as there is so much room there and you still have the front boot for your picnic.

. somewhatslightlydazed - Member
with a shedload of electronics that can go wrong
But there isn't a shedload of complicated gearboxes*, transmission* and exhaust systems to go wrong?
* My knowledge of all things automotive is vey shaky, but my understanding is that electric cars don't need these? (one motor on each wheel with no gear box?)

There have been some electric cars like that but the Tesla has 1 motor per axle set (rwd one has 1 motor at the back, 4wd version. Has motors front and back). This means they still have a differential and probably some gearing to get the rpms right at cruising speed. I think it is a fixed gearing though.

Motor at each wheel would be terrible for handling and vulnerable to shocks etc

I'd be prepared to pay a premium over a petrol/diesel car to have one of these. Would definitely consider getting one on a lease if/when that's an option.

@bol Golf GTE?

Electric 5mpkw @ 6p per KW is 1.2p per mile

Petrol is 128mpg so 3.54p per mile

Totaling 4.74p per mile

With Petrol at £1 a litre, or £4.54 for an imperial gallon that's equivilent to a normal petrol car doing 95ish MPG?

That's very impressive!

£25k for a car that can only go 200 miles? Seriously?

By the time you factor in the pollution from the production and the fact you are still burning fossil fuels to produce the electricity, with the energy losses for transporting the power on the grid, it isn't actually that "green".

We have a 12 year old Yaris for short journeys and a very comfortable 7 year old Lexus for long journeys and I think that's greener than using that thing.

Reduced maintenance costs? How long before you have to replace the batteries and for what cost?

This is clever tech but not the solution for our transport problems.

^^ ummm read this [url= http://waitbutwhy.com/2015/06/how-tesla-will-change-your-life.html ]how Tesla will change the world[/url]

By the time you factor in the pollution from the production and the fact you are still burning fossil fuels to produce the electricity, with the energy losses for transporting the power on the grid, it isn't actually that "green".

We have a 12 year old Yaris for short journeys and a very comfortable 7 year old Lexus for long journeys and I think that's greener than using that thing.

Reduced maintenance costs? How long before you have to replace the batteries and for what cost?

This is clever tech but not the solution for our transport problems.

is that just your opinion or have you any evidence?

I bet each kW of electricity an electric car uses is far cleaner than every kW of usable for motion power your 12 and 7 year old cars produce.

Also the way power is used is an EV is more efficient due to not using fuel when sat at junctions, traffic etc and lower drivetrain losses and braking regeneration.

Roughly 1/3rd of the fuel your car burns is lost directly as heat from the engine, radiator etc, another 1/3rd through heat out of the exhaust and then when you stop all that kinetic energy is dumped as more heat.

Processing and transporting fuel has a huge carbon footprint, as do the oils, coolants etc that need to be replaced.

Electricity might be produced by burning fossil fuels but it is done so more efficiently than a car and there is also the option of renewable sources and as grids get smarter and electric cars more popular then we can time charging to grab unused renewable energy. Batteries are not great things but technology is improving the life and other tech such as salt water batteries have 100% duty with no harmful waste and long life.

Yes, you are using electricity that might have been produced in a dirty power station but that will only improve over time and, anyway, you’re doing that driving your petrol car: The oil refineries consume a [b]huge[/b] amount of electricity to refine the crude - pretty much what you’ll use in an electric car.

I must admit, though, driving an electric car around California is a lot different than than the UK - remember there’s no big petrol engine warming the inside of the car up…

Rachel

April 1st

Given that Sweden has banned sales of diesel and petrol cars from 2025 this trend is going to accelerate now.

By the time you factor in the pollution from the production and the fact you are still burning fossil fuels to produce the electricity, with the energy losses for transporting the power on the grid, it isn't actually that "green".

[edit: too late]

@p-jay, yes, I'm pretty pleased with that, but it does reflect the fact that most of my journeys are fairly short.

Whilst people love to trot out all the stuff about how much worse it is for the environment to drive an electric car than a petrol engined one (with loads of bloke in the pub evidence to back it up), one of the best things about EVs is that most of them charge at night when there is currently loads of electricity generation being wasted. Cheap and relatively climate neutral whatever the source.

I'm under no allusion that my car is a half way house which will be regarded as hideously old tech in 10 years time, and isn't half as environmentally friendly as they will be in the future, but I'm loving it, and the new Tesla really fills me with hope for the future.

Whilst people love to trot out all the stuff about how much worse it is for the environment to drive an electric car than a petrol engined one (with loads of bloke in the pub evidence to back it up),

Buying a brand new car to replace a perfectly good and serviceable one is worse for the environment overall, regardless of what power plant it has.

I must admit, though, driving an electric car around California is a lot different than than the UK - remember there’s no big petrol engine warming the inside of the car up…

I've got a Leaf on lease and get on average 96 miles from it. Dips a bit in winter using heating etc. Depends on your lifestyle, yes you need to journey plan but for general commuting use it costs me the same to lease as a monthly rail ticket, charge it at work free and get business mileage so it actually pays me to drive it. It's also very nice to drive.

EVs should be a major share of the car market in the next 10 years if they can sort out the charging infrastructure. It's a bit like mobile phone chargers were a few years ago.
Fossil fuels should be left in the ground where they belong as far as I'm concerned.

Buying a brand new car to replace a perfectly good and serviceable one is worse for the environment overall, regardless of what power plant it has.

Yep, you're probably right, if you are going to just bury the old one in the ground rather than sell it on or recycle it. Are you planning to keep yours until you stop driving, or will you need to replace it at some point? The cars we use now will die and need replacing one day. Better that they're replaced with less polluting alternatives when the time comes. I'm guessing that my current car will have a lifespan of 15-20 years, be owned by four or five people and drive 150k miles plus. If each time it's sold on it replaces a car which returns 40mpg and belches out carcinogens, that can't be all bad can it?

But there isn't a shedload of complicated gearboxes*, transmission* and exhaust systems to go wrong?

* My knowledge of all things automotive is vey shaky, but my understanding is that electric cars don't need these? (one motor on each wheel with no gear box?)

Theres a Tesla 'showroom' at Westfield in that West London. I wandered in and had a look around and a sit in a model S. They had a chassis in there without a body on top of it and there really is very little to the motors. It was pretty much a flat surface with a lump behind each of the wheels. Theres a huge amount of space in the interior without any sort of transmission tunnel down the middle or anything behind the dash.

Easiest analogy is the change in mobile phones. Tesla = Apple and we're all driving Nokias at the moment.

There are a few people sticking to their dumb-phones, in ten years time will be the same with ICE cars.

Have you looked at the interior pics of the Model 3 it looks awful, just an ipad bolted to the dash, with nothing else. They certainly didn't spend money on ergonomic experts.

Also rumors that Tesla's aren't all that well made.

Be interesting if EV cars take off to see how governments get back the losses they'll see in fuel tax revenue.

Rear end of a model S:

[img] [/img]

The metal cylinder on the left is the motor and I believe the one on the other side is the drive inverter (ie electronics that power the motor).

You can see it has conventional driveshafts linking to what will be a differential which is driven by the motor.

The batteries are liquid cooled as they heat up during use - this is a standard effect of things being less than 100% efficient (batteries heat up when charging or discharging, wires heat up with current, fluid pumps heat up etc etc).

They can use that waste heat to heat the cabin when needed to reduce the yse of electrical power but air con requires power. I don't know for sure but they may well be using a reversible heat pump for heating and cooling to improve efficiency.

For me that's cracked the range and cost hurdles that prevent me from buying an EV. One of these, or an equivalent from another manufacturer will likely be the next car I purchase.

Now, someone please bring out a smallish van with the same range and similar price.

@dragon, yes, the build quality of the S has been pretty patchy by comparison to other "premium" cars. I agree about the ergonomics too. I'd be surprised if the final version doesn't have a few buttons on the wheel and a head up display.

My problem with Tesla is whether they'll exist in 3 years. They lost 40% of their €2bn float just last year, if they don't turn a profit soon, they'll be in administration and then what?

I would hope in 15 years time, no one is driving around in battery powered cars as personally I can see how they will be any better for the environment.

Someone near me has one of these, which looks stunning on the outside.

[img] [/img]

....however on the inside 😯

[img] [/img]

What would you rather they were powered by then FunkyDunc? Battery tech isn't all that clean, but it's a hell of a lot cleaner than the alternatives until something magic comes along. Hydrogen is much less efficient and uses a lot more power to produce and transport it. Give me a high capacity battery recharged with renewable energy any day.

Put my order in last night when the website opened. (3.30 am). Said I'd reserved one online but as yet no email confirmation and money still in my account ....

As an aside a couple of friends have the model s. Just an amazing car.

Well I want one. Test drove a model S and it was thrilling.

Also the new Nissan Leaf is meant to have a range of ~200miles.

£25k for a car? Ouch! That falls into the crazily expensive category for me.

It's not a whole lot different to this though is it FD?
[img] ?itok=1gwgbiEQ[/img]

....however on the inside

They don't look good in photos but it felt a solid, luxurious place to be in the showroom. I'm very dubious about the increasing use of touch controls in cars (even if it's just the radio). I can operate pretty much everything in our current VW without taking my eyes off the road - lights, aircon, heated screen. The (aftermarket) radio has physical buttons to switch inputs and select radio presets, pause/select next track etc. Doing any of that on a touchscreen requires a lot of time without looking where you're going.

Have to say I've liked my experience of Tesla so far- which is only of the original roadster, when I was lucky enough to visit the Lotus factory, see them being built and get out on the test track with a (bonkers) test driver.

Discussion on long charging times is a bit of a red-herring; in the real world, how often would you use the whole 200+miles and have to charge the full cycle..? Most journeys will only require a short top-up charge at home or near work.
Here in Dundee, there are loads of charging points and there are several Tesla S around.

It's not a whole lot different to this though is it FD?

No, and that looks bloody awful too ! Does that Volvo come with these as standard ??

[img] [/img]

I'm confused what's wrong with the inside. Can you post a picture of an acceptable dash so we can see what we're missing, FunkyDunc?

Rachel

I was in a Tesla in Amsterdam, there are loads of them being used as taxis over there.

Fast, smooth, comfortable and the dashboard does look a bit strange. Not ugly just "different". The largest sat nav display ever!

Very poor headroom in the back for such a large, luxury car.

allthegear - Member

I'm confused what's wrong with the inside. Can you post a picture of an acceptable dash so we can see what we're missing, FunkyDunc?

Rachel

Needs moar buttons. Moar leather and fake walnut inserts.

[img] [/img]

Tesla Model 3 interior 😯

[img] ?itok=a-gRwFAW[/img]

So dull even the tester has been distracted by an interesting shade of beige on the rear seat belts.

Very poor headroom in the back for such a large, luxury car.

I guess the batteries need to live somewhere (i.e. under the floor/seats).

Needs moar buttons. Moar leather and fake walnut inserts.

But, bear in mind a £25k electric car is probably competing against £12k petrol cars once you've accounted for subsidies and offset the higher monthly finance against near zero running costs. I'm viewing it as a Focus with a £12k pre paid fuel card thrown in.

Got to agree with the trend away from physical switches though. My old MG has a switch to turn off all the interior lights, but you can still hit all the controls without fumbling because it's well laid out.

[img] ?61CF52E5BDEF4AE3AF41FA6772A25164[/img]]

I'm very dubious about the increasing use of touch controls in cars (even if it's just the radio).

back on topic, new Tesla sounds great especially with 8yr warranty. Would definitely consider one if there were some decent lease deals.

If the driver finds a car dashboard boring he could try looking out of the windscreen. Saabs were good for practicality, a lot of modern dashes with their distracting chromed plastic are the spiritual heirs to the Ausin Allegro Vanden Plas.

I'm viewing it as a Focus with a £12k pre paid fuel card thrown in.

So you'll break even after 80k miles or so (assuming £6 per gallon and 40mpg). Not counting what that 12k could have earned invested or in the bank. How long do those batteries last?

[b]P-Jay[/b]
@bol Golf GTE?

Electric 5mpkw @ 6p per KW is 1.2p per mile

Petrol is 128mpg so 3.54p per mile

Totaling 4.74p per mile

With Petrol at £1 a litre, or £4.54 for an imperial gallon that's equivilent to a normal petrol car doing 95ish MPG?

That's very impressive!

the wanderer - Member

Easiest analogy is the change in mobile phones. Tesla = Apple and we're all driving Nokias at the moment.

There are a few people sticking to their dumb-phones, in ten years time will be the same with ICE cars.

I certainly wouldn't bet against it, but that would come with problems of it's own.

At the moment EVs, especially ones that are 'normal family car money' and have ranges over 200 miles seem very appealing, but and it's a big but - the aspects of them that are cheap (fuel, BIK, VED and tax exemptions on purchase) are all artificially so - it seems cheap because demand is currently low and the Government is prepared to subsidise EVs to help develop them, but if everyone does change, say over a 10 year period tax rules would have to change with them motoring taxation is worth £40bn a year to HMRC and we can't just write that off so it would have to shift that onto EVs.

So we might all be driving EVs by 2026, but a but like your iPhone v Nokia comparison, we might all be loudly wondering why our shiny new ones run out of juice in a few hours, break often and cost a fortune to repair / replace when our old ones lasted a week and hardly ever broke.

TBF you can't knock Tesla's green credentials they've managed to make cars undesirable items.

Touch screens in cars are abysmal items. I don't doubt they are cheap, but trying to do anything on them while driving is a nightmare. I guess when cars are driver-less then maybe that won't be an issue.

irc - Member

I'm viewing it as a Focus with a £12k pre paid fuel card thrown in.

So you'll break even after 80k miles or so (assuming £6 per gallon and 40mpg). Not counting what that 12k could have earned invested or in the bank. How long do those batteries last?

£6 a gallon was peak prices a few years ago, although I admit I had in my head it cost that much too - at £1 a litre (everywhere local to me is still at 99.9p a litre) it's £4.54 a gallon.

e might all be loudly wondering why our shiny new ones run out of juice in a few hours, break often

BBC must have read your mind:

[url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-35920615 ]BBC: 3rd Electric car recall in a month[/url]

Err.....

I actually quite like the look of those driving gloves

😳

My GTE arrived last week - the petrol part of it is nowhere near that - just over 40mpg, and that's with some A road/motorway driving at 60-70, so 45mpg combined with the regenerative benefit. Just getting the charger sorted and then I can benefit from the lower costs of an electric commute.

Mine would be the same if I didn't plug it in. Without charging it's just a heavy car with a petrol engine really.

without a garage at home to park it while it charges, it's as much use as ***s on a fish.

game changer my bum.

(i don't know [i]anyone[/i] who could put their car in their* garage)

(*i don't know many people with a garage tbf)

cool car though...

I don't get the hate for the interior. A car is a tool to get you from A to B, it may also be a bit of a toy for driving enjoyment and to me an interior adds nothing to those as long as it is comfortable and conveys a feeling of safety and is practical.

All the needless crap you get in cars these days just adds weight, adds complexity, materials, coat and makes them harder to recycle.

And why do you needbabgarage to charge a car in?

ahwiles

without a garage at home to park it while it charges, it's as much use as ***s on a fish.

game changer my bum.

Do you only have electricity in your garage?

andyl - Member

I don't get the hate for the interior.

me neither, but touch-screens? - yup, they're a crap idea for a car.

jimjam - Member

Do you only have electricity in your garage?

well, no. but i wouldn't want to charge my car in my house...?

andyl - Member

why do you needbabgarage to charge a car in?

i imagine it'll need plugging in ... at a charging point?

So you'll break even after 80k miles or so (assuming £6 per gallon and 40mpg). Not counting what that 12k could have earned invested or in the bank. How long do those batteries last?

40mpg, £4.54/gallon at the moment, it's actually 105k! But What are we betting fuel prices will be next year, or in 8 years? £7, £8, £10+?

Well the warranty is 8 years, I picked that number. You could say it's a Mondeo size/quality car (which it probably is), in which case it's a £20k car in poverty spec with a £5k fuel card and pays back in ~3 years.

Dunno what the servicing's like, but seeing as normal gearboxes are now sealed for life I can't imagine there's much more than a check, so that's another ~£200/year saved, and no tax, another ~£150.

With so many cars bought on finance these days if the monthly running costs are lower I can see the takeup being very rapid.

why do you needbabgarage to charge a car in?

i imagine it'll need plugging in? no? at a charging point?

Have you ever heard of electrical cable?

do i really have to explain why kerbside charging is a crap idea?

True dat - won't be long until someone files for personal injury after tripping over a trailing cable on the pavement.

Touchscreen - agree, they are not perfect and often badly implemented. I used to partake in an online forum over a decade ago working on DIY touchscreens for car PCs doing the hardware, screens, software etc and yea the reliability was bad and we were restricted by hardware that was available and software but no car manufacturer has yet caught up with the ideas and concepts were were all doing as a community back then. A lot are starting to now emerge like gesture controls etc and it is getting there but it's frustrating to watch. Haptic displays, adaptable interfaces, gesture interfaces etc

As for charging you must have seen road side charge points? Why do you need a trailing cable that people can trip over? Lots of ways to do it so that people don't trip.

do i really have to explain why kerbside charging is a crap idea?

I guess so.

[img] [/img]

do i really have to explain why kerbside charging is a crap idea?

thepurist - Member

True dat - won't be long until someone files for personal injury after tripping over a trailing cable on the pavement.

i hadn't even thought of that.

mostly i was going with:

1) what happens when one can't park outside one's house - next to 'one's' charging point? does one have to trail the cable to wherever one's car may be? - what if that's over the road?

2) leaving your bins out overnight is enough of an excuse for the local dickheads to go to work. A plugged-in leccy CAR?!?!?!? - eggs, piss, shite, vomit, paint all over it, keyed, or just smashing it up for a laugh, you would be lucky to get away with just having your tyres let down - every night, forever.

3) someone would nick your charging point - copper and that, innit.

zilog6128 - Member

I'm not sure these cars are aimed at people who can't afford off-street parking.

£25K? that's only junior-rep level - let's call him Stuart. Stuart lives in a 1 bed flat in Warwick (well, Kenilworth really).

1) what happens when i can't park outside my house - next to 'my' charging point? do i have to trail the cable to wherever my car may be? - what if that's over the road?

2) leaving your bins out overnight is enough of an excuse for the local dickheads to go to work. A plugged-in leccy CAR?!?!?!? - eggs, piss, shite, vomit, paint all over it, keyed, or just smashing it up for a laugh, you would be lucky to get away with just having your tyres let down - every night, forever.

3) someone would nick your charging point - copper and that, innit.

I would move if I was you. Sounds terrible.