A new Tesla for £25k? Sounds good.

Car’s a bit heavy so that’ll increase wear a bit. Though power delivery could reduce it. TBH the biggest influence is probably the outdated software that controls the human.

Yeah seems like that,

TBH the biggest influence is probably the outdated software that controls the human.

The moan circuits certainly could do with the Y2K perspective upgrade 😉

I was talking to l Tesla Model 3 and Renault Zoe owners a few months ago and it I remember correctly they both said it was free to charge up their cars. We were at a Source East charging point at their work car park. They both said it cost £10 fit the Source East card and then they just used the charging terminals and didn’t pay anything else. Can this be correct? If so, who is paying for their electricity, govt subsidy?

Teslsta are paying for some, others are subsidiesed or PAYG
https://www.zap-map.com/charge-points/public-charging-point-networks/
But yes it’s like giving away free crack, it’s just to get you hooked 😉
It’s promoting the tech to get people over the line to go for it – as many of the doubters say there are not enough chargers etc. no business is going to invest in a network without customers and no customer will go for it without the infrastructure so you use funding to get a start and get the user base up and go from there.

Part of this does rely on the UK getting round to building some proper electrical generation at some point soon 😉 though daytime charging etc. could be a great way to use solar resources etc. that are not available at night. In the end there will be costs associated with charging properly but it’s not as if oil is free now is it.

It’ll be a very long time before all the surplus night time energy is used up charging cars – and while the naysayers harp on about lack of chargers, most charging happens at home at night (yes, by people with off road parking).

and tyre costs can be high.

A lot of it has got to do with the fact that all the torque is available from standstill. People with the same model as me are complaining of only getting 5000 miles out of their first set of fronts. I’m being fairly careful, but grateful that my lease includes tyre replacement.

I’m an avid petrol head/mechanical engineer/part time restorer.
For me the IC engine is dead – when you strip and rebuild an engine the tolerances and combination of parts required to make an engine work is mind boggling, its just that we’ve become accustomed to it so its the norm. If things were the other way round and EV’s came first would the IC engine stand a chance if it was developed now? I dont think so.

I would buy a Tesla/Leaf/Note car at the drop of a hat, its just that Im skint and am going for a million miles out of my Volvo!

Robert Llewellyn has a god Youtube channel on Tesla’s/EV’s thats good watching;
https://www.youtube.com/user/fullychargedshow/videos

it’ll be a very long time before all the surplus night time energy is used up charging cars

You got any evidence for that? To me looking at the National Grid production against demand, it looks like the CCGT’s are acting to ensure reasonable demand matching and that there isn’t excess capacity at night.

Hardly a reputable manufacturer when they just missed manufacturing their correct amount of SUVs due to supply issues and the Tesla forum has people saying that they couldn’t supply parts for repairs.

Not really, it does mean that their suppliers need to up their game though if they want to stay in the picture.

A friend of mine has a Nissan note and loves it, her husband has a bigger diesel car for long trips or holidays so the range has never been an issue.

She has found an extra benefit – good parking. In a lot of shopping centers, she can park right in front of the entrance and charge it for free while she shops.

I saw some charging stations at the Eurotunnel terminal a few months back so there must be some people doing some longer journeys and making it work?

it does mean that their suppliers need to up their game though if they want to stay in the picture.

No Tesla need to up their game in supply chain management and dealer networks, otherwise they’ll get crushed by the big players as the Japs did to the US car industry previously.

Well, once the national grid is producing enough for all the cars in the UK to be electric, there are multiple options to allow a non-stop drive to the Alps, there’s a council-supplied charging point outside every terraced house, there’s a dealer on every street, Tesla have implemented kaizen throughout their organisation so spares can be delivered by drone within a hour of ordering, then, maybe just then, I’ll buy one.

there are multiple options to allow a non-stop drive to the Alps,

[Devils Advocate] Calais to Morzine is 547 miles, The Tesla figures of 200/charge and 80% charge in 30 mins so quick maths gives you 160 miles for 30 mins. That is 3 1/2 charges taking an 8hr journey to 9.5 hrs with charging. Not sure I’ve done the drive in 8hrs before so I reckon I’d be happy with that as a travel time [/Devils Advocate]

deadlydarcy – Member

there are multiple options to allow a non-stop drive to the Alps

Couple of bridges?

There should be charging points on ferries too. And in every carriage on the eurotunnel trains. Just in case I arrive at the terminal without a half hour to spare.

EDIT: If planes can be refuelled in mid air, then maybe electric trucks with batteries the size of a shipping container that could charge “on the go”. Might be a bit slower but at least I wouldn’t have to stop. Once Tesla have sorted out their spares issues, the trucks could carry some of those too.

And in every carriage on the eurotunnel trains. Just in case I arrive at the terminal without a half hour to spare.

Getting there…

I saw some charging stations at the Eurotunnel terminal a few months back so there must be some people doing some longer journeys and making it work?

See it’s not getting too hard is it

saw some charging stations at the Eurotunnel terminal a few months back so there must be some people doing some longer journeys and making it work?

Haven’t got bloody time to wait at the terminal.

Technology will improve and the range will go up. We drove past an all electric AutoLib yesterday – blimey its a horrible looking car. At least Telsa have go the visuals right.

Haven’t got bloody time to wait at the terminal.

Ah it’s you with the private train 😉

No Tesla need to up their game in supply chain management and dealer networks, otherwise they’ll get crushed by the big players as the Japs did to the US car industry previously.

Fine by me – I don’t really care which car companies survive or die so long as there’s innovation that means my cars get cheaper, cleaner and better

What about sticking solar panels on the roof of em’?

Could help charging, could it not?

the roof of a car covers approx 3 square metres.

under ideal conditions, you’d get about 600 Watts out of that.

which sounds like loads, except the roof of a car is not angled appropriately, and 600W isn’t much really, roughly 1 horsepower.

how far away are we from some kind of solar PV wrap that could cover the entire painted surface of the car?

that might get it up to, oh, 2KW or so

EDIT: If planes can be refuelled in mid air, then maybe electric trucks with batteries the size of a shipping container that could charge “on the go”

love it 😆

Or induction charging via the road surface 😉

Darcy gets the Fallout award for backwards innovation though (yes I realise you’re taking the piss).

I always thought that the battery packs should be exchangeable ‘at the roadside’

Like the old coaching routes used to exchange the horses at each stop rather than waiting for the ones they had to rest and be fed.

If the big batteries in teslas can already be charged to 80% in less than 30 minutes, it’s likely that it’ll be down to 10 minutes within the next 10 years, with higher voltage charging. It’d take longer than that to swap the battery over – and it would mean packaging it in a manageable pack, rather than spreading it across the whole floor pan to keep the weight low in the chassis.

Running costs.

Here are some figures from a gentleman I know in the SW who has run a number of EVs, charging them at night from Ecomony 7 or in the day using solar on his roof. Even if the diesel car running costs are a little high, I think the numbers still stack up very well.

It will vary from country to country. If you take the UK where diesel/petrol is £1.10 per litre or £5 per gallon and a driver does 14,000 miles per year at 35 miles per gallon his fuel costs are £2,000/yr. His annual service is £400 and his road tax is £250, the total is £2,650 for 14,000 miles = 19p/mile.

An EV that does 4 miles/kWh and charges up using Eco 7 at 5p/kWh uses 3,500 kWh for £175/yr. The annual service is £125 and there is no road tax. The EV’s cost is 2.1p/mile. Our first EV, the Peugeot iOn that cost £10,000 did 5 miles/kWh.

This assumes similar depreciation, replacement of tyres etc.

For someone commuting into the congestion zone, the savings would be greater. Likewise, someone able to claim 45p/mile for business trips does even better.

The perk of charging your car at work appears not to have been targeted by HMRC, yet.

For company cars, I believe they are still zero rated for tax.

There is a subsidy of £4,500 on purchase of an EV (it was £5,000).

If you have solar PV, as you do, and keep your car at home then the running costs are even less.

Second hand prices will have a cushion in that the old car can then be used as a domestic battery worth about £5,000 (price will fall as batteries get cheaper).

One will also be able to sell electricity to the grid at peak tariffs (17p) in the evening and then recharge using Eco7 at 5p during the quiet hours of the night. In Indiana where they have been experimenting with this, an EV owner can make $1,000 per year.

And they are really good fun to drive!

diesel/petrol is £1.10 per litre or £5 per gallon and a driver does 14,000 miles per year at 35 miles per gallon his fuel costs are £2,000/yr. His annual service is £400 and his road tax is £250, the total is £2,650 for 14,000 miles = 19p/mile.

Those are some seriously massaged figures!

I love all this ‘technology will improve and sort out all the problems’ stuff. That’s nothing more than blind faith. There is are a couple of issues, called physics and chemistry.

🙂

I just quickly checked my current running costs, and they come to just under 10p per mile. My car is old enough that depreciation is negligible.

A brand new Tesla, however, will depreciate. Something like 20p/mile seems ballpark.

So ignoring the “oooh, it’s all new and shiny” argument for the moment, one of these would double my commuting costs ! I couldn’t swallow that.

But then I’m not their target audience. Compared to a leased Audi it probably makes a lot more sense.

If planes can be refuelled in mid air, then maybe electric trucks with batteries the size of a shipping container that could charge “on the go”.

Wasn’t someone (Volvo) doing tests with ‘road trains’ where a lorry gets followed extremely closely by a car on autopilot that’s linked to the truck. IF the truck brakes then the cars instantly brake too to maintain the gap? Other cars then join the ‘train’ and travel in the wake of the truck, saving a load of fuel?

They could do that to improve range on long journeys. ‘Trains’ of 10 cars all tucked in behind a lorry, half a car length behind the car in front. Can’t see it being any more of a problem for other road users than the current trains of salesmen sticking their bonnets in each other’s boots in the outside lane.

The only way I can see mass market electric cars working is if they all use the same battery cells. ie you drive to a ‘petrol’ station they slide out the battery from your car and put a fully charged one in.

Range anxiety is real: Seven drivers a week run out of fuel in Manchester motorway roadworks

diesel/petrol is £1.10 per litre or £5 per gallon and a driver does 14,000 miles per year at 35 miles per gallon his fuel costs are £2,000/yr. His annual service is £400 and his road tax is £250, the total is £2,650 for 14,000 miles = 19p/mile.

not actually as off as you think.

take my Hyundai Tucson

if I do 10,000 miles a year which I still think is what’s considered reasonable.
105p/l diesel
476.7p/gallon
it does at best 40mpg
so £1191.75 per year in fuel.
£235 in VED
and I do recall when a service cost was £300, most I’ve not got change from about £500, but lest call it £300

totals £1726.75 per year, or 17p per mile.

changing this about, if I had a super economy low emmission hybrid car, removing the VED and around 75mpg, I’d be looking at around 8p/mile, if it never got used battery only

😆 @ the pro EV types who are deliberately overlooking the insurmountable infrastructure & recharging issues.

“It’s ok, someone will fix it for us”.

lol’d also at recharging trucks on the roads(very amusing 🙂 ). But for anyone who would consider that a solution, as if our roads aren’t already clagged to walking pace with heavy goods vehicles. Would be crazy.

Not to mention on-the-move recharging would require the driving skills of Lewis Hamilton.
Oh, me bad. They’ll be an onboard app for that.

EVs really aren’t the solution.
🙂

Did a quick calculation on this if I swapped it for my current 320d.

Both cost around the same so repayments, insurance, tyres, services would be similar but I would save around £200 month in fuel. thats not taking into account using the 3 phase in the yard to recharge it while at work. Depreciation isn’t a concern for me as once I have finished with a car its not worth much anyway.

Older cars don’t work out for me as company has a 5 years or younger rule on car allowance.

As for range I do about 120 miles a day so well inside the range and my longer trips are to clients offices who have a supercharger next door. Saying that the other half would still have her car if we needed to do any really long journeys. but thats once in a blue moon.

Might be worth looking into as thats a new bike a year.

EV’s are part of the solution, and yes we have an e-up and it gets used for day to day driving, I still cycle to work most days.
Its not for everyone that’s a fact and to be honest that’s fine.
Wait for petrol to go up to £2 a litre and see how many people hate EV’s.
Just wait for OPEC to slow production.
Our car has a range of around 90 miles which is more than enough for what it was designed to do.

EVs really aren’t the solution.

Well, no. The ‘problem’ is congestion, air pollution, and an obesity epidemic fuelled by a lack of ‘active’ travel (too many door to door car journeys).

EVs solve the air pollution bit, and are probably a bit better on the noise pollution front but at 30mph I reckon the majority of noise heard to an outsider is from the tyres rather than the engine. But they do nothing for congestion, inactivity or injuries and deaths on the road (to drivers and non-drivers).

A big part of the solution would be high quality bike infrastructure. But there will always be cars. If a car is on the road, I’d rather* it was an EV than a diesel one.

*As a member of society who has to the breathe the air polluted by cars, my own included.

What do you think “the solution” is? And what is “the problem” for that matter?

Best solution to the EV vs Internal Combustion question: drive a bit less.
Ride your bike more.
Then the older, repairable car that you’ve already got will be fine for a fair bit longer and the whole package has far less environmental impact overall.

I could pick up a ex-demonstrator Zoe with less than 500km on the clock for around 13 000e. The battery hire would cost about the same as petrol for the same distance.

I didn’t say the figures were wrong, just massaged.

35mpg, £400 serivce and £250 VED are consistent with a big luxury SUV. The Peugot iON that he then purchases is in no way comparable to the big SUV, it’s a small car. Show me the small diesel that does 35mpg and costs £400 for a service 🙂

Then the older, repairable car that you’ve already got will be fine for a fair bit longer and the whole package has far less environmental impact overall.

Not sure what ‘more repairable’ means, but you’ve ignored the problem of what to do when you actually need a new car – say it’s been smashed up.

For there to be old cars, someone has to be buying new ones.

I’d love a Tesla, but I could not warrant spending 25K on a car, ever. I prefer an electric car from fun of driving, less faff, and being very cheap in paying for the energy into the car, no tax etc etc. Lovely little thing (Renault Zoe).

Current line up:

1. my bike with a Bafang BBS01 crank kit which means I can now bike to work every day and not feel worn out (yes I could do it without electrickery but I’m really not built for endurance)
2. Electric Renault zoe as a second car (I prefer to drive this myself over:
3. Hyundai 7 seater big lump 2.2 diesel. Now bike to work instead using line up item 1.