650b – a fair observation

A huge chunk of the market was saying “I like 29ers, but I think I’m slightly too rad for them”.

There you go, fixed

let the pages of prolix debate ensue…

Not sure why anyone gives a shit.

Countless threads on here that will give you many valid – and some not so valid – reasons. Knock yourself out and have a look, but you could be some time. To be frank I think you answer your own question if you read between your own lines.

The reason people care is that they have invested hundreds if not thousands of pounds into a bike(s) with a wheel size that is looking like it could become obsolete sooner rather than later. Buying new rims, tyres, tubes and forks for 26″ bikes will become more difficult and people don’t like difficult. As for image that may or may not be important to a rider, but 26″ bikes will soon be like Blackberry is in the smartphone world.

Can I ask why you’re not testing a 26″ bike, or a 29er for that matter?

The reason people care is that they have invested hundreds if not thousands of pounds into a bike(s) with a wheel size that is looking like it could become obsolete sooner rather than later.

Why will a 26″ bike become obsolete? You can still buy 8 speed? There are thousands of 26″ bikes out there, there are still manufacturers making 26″ bikes, 26 has got at least 5 years of top end stuff (forks) I reckon.

Why am I not testing a 26″ bike? Not available in the ranges that I think offer the best value for money (Giant and Specialized) and that I can fairly easily get a test ride on.

I’d like a Whyte T129s, but I’m not going to get a test ride on one, I will have to wait a long time for it to arrive, and its not available from the dealer I want to buy from.

If I don’t like the Anthem 27.5 2 or Trance 27.5 2 (which are the best value I think overall), then next on my shortlist is the Specialized Camber or the Cube Sting, both 29er.

I’m testing the Anthem back to back with the Trance as I reckon that will be interesting, Trance, Camber, Sting, T129s are probably the right sort of bike for me, but I’d like to know what the Anthem can do.

Can you point out which shop I can walk into and buy an 8-speed XTR cassette – could do with a replacement one of those.

Whilst you’re at it, maybe you could also suggest where I get some 27×1″ tyres for my old bike.

You can still buy 8 speed?

how much xt or xtr 8speed stuff can you get? a quick google says there’s more 8speed stuff than I thought but I still wouldn’t be want to be limited to what’s there. Someone pointed out a while back you can still get 1″ steerer forks aswell, not necessarily the ones you want tho. 26″ is being made into an outdated standard, as such choice will get less over time. To a lot of (cynical?) people there isn’t even the pretence of technological advancement here it’s just either the public genuinely do want intangibly bigger wheels or it’s 100% a marketing ploy. neither of which sound a good reason to dump 26″.

A huge chunk of the market was saying “I like 29ers, but I think I’m slightly too rad for them”.

There you go, fixed

Thank you. That was implied in my head. 😉

a fair few seem to comment that there is no difference but haven’t actually ridden 650b

how do you know what bikes people have or haven’t ridden?

If a lot of people want 26″ stuff then you will still be able to get it. You may well eventually be stuck with just being able to service your forks. I am sure you’ll always get the rims, you could get 650b rims before all the fuss about them. And I’m sure there will be a market for the tyres which will last for yonks. Maybe not the latest cutting edge stuff, but then if you wanted that in the first place you’d be swapping yesterday.

Second hand value of mountain bikes is nothing anyway. If it does get more difficult to get 26″ parts then maybe the values will go up. If I was worried about the depreciation of my bike I’d never ride it!

Basically, I don’t know why people worry so much. The only thing I’m worrying about is do I go 29er or 650b for my next bike, once my 26″ bike is trashed and needs swapping.

“People loved 650b without even trying it.” is the key point- Santa Cruz’s famous video said 2 really interesting things, one was their admission that pushing 650b was nothing to do with making better bikes. But the other was that they were led into it by pressure from potential customers who’d never ridden a 650b bike.

I don’t think it’s that marketing led at all, at least, not in the simple way people seem to think- people aren’t rushing out and buying 650b because Giant says they should, the adverts are following the trend. The change to 650b has caught most of the industry out, a few players have done well out of it (mostly also-rans like Schwalbe and Norco who had the greatest motivation to get into a market with less competition)

People have touched on it in this thread but I genuinely believe it’s exactly this complicated:

29ers were heavily marketed. This inspired a desire for change and for bigger wheels. But, not enough to overcome a lot of people’s objections (rational or otherwise).

So, 650b emerged as the alternative- it wins because yes it’s a change, for people to get excited about. Yes the wheels are bigger, which is what the manufacturers had been banging on about. But it’s a change sufficiently small as to not be scary, on account of it’s barely even noticable. And that wins because the change to 29er was too big and too scary.

So in the end the consumers- not the industry- chose the appearance of change for novelty’s sake, without needing to overcome the fear of the new. You can’t blame the bike companies for this, we’ve got the industry we deserve frankly.

So in the end the consumers idiots- not the industry- chose the appearance of change for novelty’s sake,

as I said, a crap reason. I guess the industry won’t be too worried about making all last years models obsolete either (or atleast shortening their lifespan)

I, like many on here I suspect, run more than one MTB, bestest bike gets the new stuff old bike gets the cast offs, pointless standard changes screw this kinda thing up. All my bikes run standard BBs and headset shenanigans is easily gotten around by only buying 1.125 forks and using reducer headsets, 650b will be more of a problem. As i said mono bikers won’t be sweating this – aswell as not having to spend 20minutes before every ride deciding which bike, lucky barstewards 🙂

I’ve got a 26er a 650b and a 29er and I think there is a place for them all. Just as there is a place for a SS rigid through to a 8inch travel DH bike…horses for courses.
You can ride the same trail on one wheel size and it feels quite different from the other two…I think of it as x3 the fun.
All bikes have a slightly different just find one that you really like and pay no attention to the wheel size.

A hundred bored cynical angry f@$%s

Joe Graney knows stw so well

The industry is desperate for us to buy The Next Big Thing. There’s been very little in the way of innovation in the last five years, merely refining existing concepts.

I have to agree with the sentiment that if it rides well then I want it. My 26″ bikes still ride well and if I bend a rim then I’ll be able to source a replacement, given that the overwhelming number of mountain bikes out there are 26ers and the market for spare parts won’t die overnight.

The more cynical operators out there – like Giant – will be right at the very back of the queue for my custom in the future though.

[/quote]A hundred bored cynical angry f@$%s

Joe Graney knows stw so well[/quote]

🙂 that made me lol

have to say having ridden 650b bikes Im a total convert, and the lads riding enduro for us are switching to 650b after smashing their strava times on their favourite practice runs, but everyone I know who has ridden the 650b bikes has raved about them.

I do see it as progress and the industry has got its sums right IMO.

I suggest you repaint the lads’ bikes every year and tell them they have some new wonder innovation which makes them a lot faster. They’d still be smashing their Strava times and it would be far cheaper for you

I do see it as progress and the industry has got its sums right IMO.

Does that include Giant, who’s sums in their marketing material are quite clearly BS?

have to say having ridden 650b bikes Im a total convert, and the lads riding enduro for us are switching to 650b after smashing their strava times on their favourite practice runs, but everyone I know who has ridden the 650b bikes has raved about them.

You should get them to try a 29″.

Aracer I don’t give the lads bikes they ride their own bikes we are not a pro team
They want the 650b bikes because they themselves are faster on them riding back to back with their current 26″ bikes
They don’t want 29″ bikes because these are their own personal bikes and they don’t like them.

This stuff does make me smile. We wonder why new riders find it easier to buy a road bike rather than a mountain bike, it’s not difficult to see really is it?
I’ve been mountain biking for over 20 years, I have 4 MTB’s, all 26″, that I really enjoy riding. They’re all different types of bikes, and I have no intention of changing them for anything with a different wheel size. Why? Because I’m 49 next month, not getting any quicker, and just don’t see the point. Some of my riding friends (well, most if I’m honest!) are quicker than me on their new 29ers, but shockingly, they were that much quicker than me when they were on their 26ers. No one, in my reasonable size circle of riding mates, rides a 27.5.
So, I’ll stick with my 26in bikes, I don’t believe for one minute that the supply of parts will disappear for them, and if it does, well, I’ll become a roadie instead where the realms of customer brainwashing doesn’t seem to be happening.

Northwind talks a lot of sense. Essentially we get the industry we deserve, if collectively we’re suckers for new sh*t and will pay silly money for stuff (myself included). And let’s not forget that bike businesses are exactly that: businesses.

Ive got a 650b bike and I luuurve it

definately better than my old one, but its 5 years newer with different geometry etc

dont know about faster but definately more fun!

Ive got a 650b new bike and I luuurve it

definately better than my old one, but its 5 years newer with different geometry etc

dont know about faster but definately more fun!

😉

Some people seem to be well and truly brainwashed by the long term BS from the 26er marketing teams.
The blog is ok but he seems to have deliberately forgotten that most riders have tried 650b and are very happy with that as a wheel size.

We can have wide bars, different stems,carbon everything,new headtube configs,press fit bb’s, New axle configs., 10mm of extra travel (messing up frame geo apparently), thicker stanchions, 1 x 87 set ups, dropper posts, virtual pivot points :oops:, wide rims and freaky massive balloon tyres..
BUT we can’t go from a 22 inch rim to a 23 inch rim, No way hosay that would be ridiculous 😯

Next year, bikes will ride great! Mark my words and remember you heard it here first.

but he seems to have deliberately forgotten that most riders have tried 650b and are very happy with that as a wheel size

I very much disagree, most riders haven’t tried 650b yet. Most riders are still on the bikes they own and in the grand scheme of things very few riders attend demo days and the like, hell I even know people that haven’t tried a full sus bike yet!

I’ll grant you that most who have tried have been happy, whether that’s due to genuine advantage or the fact that it feels similar enough to what they’re used to to not upset them is up for debate though.

Next year, bikes will ride great! Mark my words and remember you heard it here first.

I agree, on average bikes have been getting better and better for years, I still love my old and obsolete ones but the modern mountain bike is actually an amazing thing!

theocb – Member

he seems to have deliberately forgotten that most riders have tried 650b and are very happy with that as a wheel size.

Except that most people haven’t. In fact few people have. And the demand for 650b came before the availability of the bikes (as discussed by Santa Cruz, who were themselves one of the earlier adopters of 650b). I do like the idea of 26er marketing teams fooling us all though, that’d be one video fro Cotic and… Hmm. Nothing else at all.

Regardless; the question isn’t whether people are happy with 650b- it’s whether that’s worth the massive cost of the change.

Most people have.
EDIT:
If most riders are happy with it then it kinda makes sense to use it as a standard.

Santa cruz.. who listens to what they think? They follow as they have done for the last umpteen years.

Double Edit:
650b isn’t some new fangled thing suddenly chucked at us.. we have been riding bigger wheels for years with bigger volume tyres
Most riders have tried it and most are happy.. NEW standard is born.

Most people have.

Most riders have tried it and most are happy

can you clarify what you mean by this?

do you mean most of the industry bods who design/build bikes?
or do you mean most riders?

If you mean the first, then clearly that’s a very biased sample with a vested interest in pushing ‘new’ things.

If you mean the 2nd then I think you are very mistaken, I bet even the majority of people on STW (themselves a minority of riders) havent’t actually ridden one.

And as Northwind has hinted at (as well as the article), the bizarre thing with this is that it seems to have popped up literally out of nowhere, with people apparently very excited about something they’ve never ridden, and then suddenly a lot of manufacturers deciding to go for the big push on this new standard that very few people asked for, and at this point have little experience of.

None of us are really saying it’s a bad wheel size, in fact quite the opposite, it’s just such a weird turn of events how this new standard is arriving, it arrived almost overnight (yes there have been 650b MTBs for over a decade, but as a niche, it’s not like they were in mainstream shops and all over the trails luring people off their older wheels), it’s been pushed by manufacturers but based on an apparent frenzy from consumers that appears to have been based not on experience but hearsay and industry reviews, not real world riding like with 29ers and other previous tech.

Even if you believe that most people have now tried 650b- which is a pretty astonishing claim- you can’t possibly believe that most people had tried it at the start of the move to 650b, so you’re still left with the fact that the decision wasn’t an educated one.

I’m perfectly happy with 650b as a wheel size- there’s no reason not to be, it’s a tiny change from 26 inch, the differences aren’t enough to upset or inspire anyone. The issue has never been with the size- it’s the massive change in hardware required to get the small change in effect.

And Santa Cruz were one of the first big companies to get on the 650b bandwagon!

It’s not a massive cost/change if you were buying a whole brand new bike anyway. I’m getting my first full suss in a month or so which will have 27.5″ wheels and it’s costing me the same as it would have to buy the previous year’s version with 26″ wheels.

I’ve had a test ride of a very blingy carbon Santa Cruz Solo on 27.5″ wheels and it felt great compared to my bike, which is hardly surprising considering the difference in frame and spec, but I couldn’t notice any specific difference due to the very slightly larger wheels.

The wheel size thing isn’t worth getting your knickers in a twist, wheels are still round and bikes are still bikes.

29er rider getting moany because his ‘rig’ isn’t the latest, coolest fad shocker.

Spot on. I understand most riders are perfectly happy with 26″.

Sorry I double edited my last post so might not have been clear.

It’s not an astonishing claim at all. most riders have tried 650b / 27.5 inch wheels (within a few mm here or there.) most people are happy..
fit some big tyres and measure up!

The New 23inch rim standard arrives, that’s how things work.

The blogger (who was riding a 29er) was trying to claim nobody had tried 650b so how did they know it was worth it. Most riders have tried it and are happy with that as a wheel size.

The only way I could see myself buying a whole brand new bike is if mine was stolen.
The 1 1/8 steerer 26″ fork choice has greatly shrunk this year alone so I believe next year it will be even less.
I think in 3 years max it will be hard to get any 26 ” non entry level fork full stop.

Also halfords are now selling an entry level 650b carrera titan hardtail for £300.
If this proves to be a great seller I can see them really pushing the 650b option and putting the final nail in the coffin .

theocb – Member

It’s not an astonishing claim at all. most riders have tried 650b / 27.5 inch wheels (within a few mm here or there.) most people are happy..
fit some big tyres and measure up!

Hang on… Are you suggesting that people with big tyres and 26 inch wheels have effectively tried 650b? Not sure what else you can mean here but that doesn’t make much sense.

Why doesn’t that make sense?

my 650b wheels came with big tyres and they measured up at about 28.5, does that mean Ive nearly ridden a 29er? !!

theocb – Member
Why doesn’t that make sense?
POSTED 5 MINUTES AGO # REPORT-POST

Because surely the 650b wheels also can (and will)be fitted with fat tyres or are they limited to skinnys.
if the latter was true it would make the change truly pointless if the case .

Of course it bleeding does! What the hell do you guys want your wheel measurements to mean??? 😀

i had 2.7″ continental diesels on my hardtail a few (8?) years ago. They were chuffing huge.

(roughly 0.4″ bigger than a 2.3″ – not far off the 0.5″ difference between 26″ and 650b)

It was a very comfy ride once i starting using lower pressures, but the overall difference wasn’t exactly mind-blowing.

mind you, it means that the kona cindercone frame in the cellar is probably 650b-able, it must be worth a fortune!