Exactly my point. So the lib dems are abandoning any pretence at stopping brexit in favour of gaining more MPs and hopefully being part of a future coalition with the tories. Glad we cleared that up.

What are you on about dazh?

If Johnson doesn’t get his GE on 12th he puts his bill back down & labour leavers vote it through (CU amendment won’t get thru as erg etc will block it so will be some weak committment to level playing field, that flint etc are desperate to hide behind)

One of the greatest successes of the political right has been to conflate Marxism, Communism and Maoism with Socialism. The fact that the Nordic countries are profoundly socialist and offer paid childcare, free education, subsidised public transport etc passes most people by. Naturally, the tax burden is higher but it doesn’t seem to harm their respective economies.

People seem shocked to learn that the starting rate of tax was 30% and the top tax rate 60% during the early years of the Thatcher government.

Back on topic. The SNP and Lib Dem tactic behind pushing for an early election on the 9th is simple – they’re trying to highlight Boris’ chicanery, they know full well that Johnson’s team won’t agree to an election on the 9th Dec. Make no mistake, it’s about closing down Johnson’s avenues towards a defacto “no deal”.

As for potential coalitions… any statements about who you will and won’t work with will go out of the window half a millisecond after a hung parliament with no overall majority

This.

…but we can be pretty sure the Libdems will make the first condition of any deal with a party the removal of Corbyn/Boris and we can be 100pc sure that a party in some kind of power on a ‘stop Brexit’ mandate won’t be able to do anything that makes Brexit more likely.

Also I don’t accept the premise that the Lib Dems can’t win. They’re polling neck and neck with Labour and they will appeal to the 50pc of the electorate who voted remain while the 50pc who voted leave are split between Tories and BP.

the Nordic countries are profoundly socialist

No they’re not.

Socialism is:

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

All the Nordic countries have tons of private enterprise.

I don’t *think* the person who originally brought up was using it specifically in relation to Labour either.

You could always read what I actually typed:

Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer……
we’ve never needed a decent democratic socialist government as much as we do now.

The last Labour manifesto, you know, the only one that was independantly costed was just fine in my eyes.
The addition of scrapping private education is just the icing on the cake.

And what’s wrong with direct action?

By all means let’s have Starmer as leader.
As long as he pledges to push through a democratic socialist manifesto containing the key points of the previous one.

I was using the term in relation to the Labour Party.
A democratic political party, born of socialist principles.

However, I really should have known better by now…..

I was using the term in relation to the Labour Party.

Ok, sorry. Maybe you can address Dezb and Molgrip’s objections – I’m getting flack that should be aimed at you.

a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Key word in your quote is regulated. Private enterprise is fine but it needs to be regulated for the interest of society.

Ever heard the phrase ‘never look a gift horse in the mouth’? So you would reject a policy that will directly and massively benefit you because of your doubts that it will happen, even though your rejection of that would ensure that is the case?

Yes. For a bribe to work it has to be credible. Seriously, if a party offered you and a massive number of other voters £36,000 over two years to vote for them, would that have any effect on your vote? Of course not, you’d just think nah, can’t be done.

…and I’m bribe-able. Many other voters would think that 36k would be better off going to a disabled person and not vote for it for that reason.

Lots of reasons to shun the pork barrel.

Ok, sorry. Maybe you can address Dezb and Molgrip’s objections – I’m getting flack that should be aimed at you.

No you’re getting flack for being stubborn, obtuse and refusing to answer questions.

No you’re getting flack for being stubborn, obtuse and refusing to answer questions.

You brought up socialism *in relation to Labour*. I didn’t. That’s what got them all hot under the collar!

What question am I’m refusing to answer?

Free childcare is a powerful bribe for me – I pay over £1500 a month on childcare and it’s crippling.

Free childcare is much more than just a financial help. Mostly it’s the women who end up staying home to look after kids – because they take their maternity leave and then before you know it they’re the ones who become the primary caregiver and so it goes on. This all goes into the general murky pot of sexist attitudes. So we have millions of women who are economically under-active and their earning potential is diminished. But more than that – their economic output is diminished. There are many women who could be productive assets to the economy who are forced to take part time low-skilled work. That’s not to mention the single parents who can’t go out to work because who’s going to look after the kids and how the hell do they afford childcare? So they sit at home not working and not developing skills. Maybe women end up being trapped in poor relationships because they can’t afford to leave?

Free childcare would have a massive knock-on effect all through society, not just for women. It’d boost our economy significantly in the long run IMO.

But it all came down to do I believe for one second that Labour could deliver that? And the answer was no, it’s not affordable.

It’s not affordable now, it’s not acheivable in the short term. But three or four Labour administrations on the trot, it wouldn’t seem so far fetched.

They are a mixed economy with (although its been changes) a tendancy towards the socialist side of things.

Social democracy.

They mixtures, like the UK.

I must be missing your argument then. What are you trying to argue with regards to PJMs point?

Free childcare would have a massive knock-on effect all through society,

There is also some interesting evidence around how it would impact the current demographic decline in those countries which have adopted it on a large scale.

See the post in which I replied to it.

I have. I am not sure what your objection is. Do you expect everything to be qualified?

Thought they voted against the 12th.

The most important election in decades at a time which guarantees the lowest possible turnout. You couldn’t make it up.

While the optics for turn-out are bad, I was listening to a discussion the other day that said they stack up worse for “typical” Labour voters than “typical” Tory. It’s a shit time for an election though, that’s true.

Anyone care to explain what difference 3 days makes?

Stops BJ brexiting before the election

BBC News – Brexit election: Lib Dems and SNP plan to force earlier poll
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50194685

Anyone care to explain what difference 3 days makes?

It’s already been explained in this thread (or the other one). It’s to prevent a pre-election Brexit.

All change again. Withdrawal Agreement legislation parked according to Rees-Mogg at the dispatch box. Election legislation to be rushed. SNP and LibDem support for a super snappy election now seems unlikely to me… why bother if Brexit legislation now put to one side? 2020 election? Maybe after a referendum? Who knows…

How easy is it to all of a sudden overturn the FTPA?

No parliament can constrain future parliaments so it can be overturned with a simple majority of one.

Why not before now?

Because the government doesn’t have a simple majority of one. Plus amendments. Plus they always had something better to try.